Christian Predeterminism Exposed

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ScottA

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I'm showing what your words really mean, and you don't want to hear it, much less reject it.

And so we conclude, that your revelation ends with men, including Christ, being created from nothing. If I were to quote your exact words in a thread title, the moderators would shut it down ASAP, forbidding anyone teach Jesus Christ is not God.

My admonition to you is to withdraw yourself from your revelation, or at least allow it to be corrected, which I have offered several times, so that it does not end up speaking of men, including Christ, are created.

No good in your walk with God can come of that. Neither can any man maintain good works, by thinking more and more the world is not real, because eventually we would then think more and more, that what we do in this life really doesn't matter.

Now, I can see how we begin to understand that this life is less and less important, while the next is more and more important, as we believe the day draws near to depart from this life.

For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.

However, that does not at all mean this life is less and less real, and our manner of life is less and less important.

Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

The last day of this life is just as real and important as the first, in fact more so. We must remain established in the truth most of all in the last days of our life, in this very real and present world.
Stop lying, that's not what I said.
 

Gilligan

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Stop lying, that's not what I said.

Thus, it is as I said, we (including Christ) are created in the form of "image" beings made from the dust of the earth (light and energy), spoken into being out of a void of nothing.
You are saying we, including Christ, are created as image beings from the dust and spoken into being by God from nothing. There is no misunderstanding here. It is what you are saying. it's your own words spoken back to you.

Someone tried to even rebuke me for not saying you believe in the created Christ created with us.

I had to explain your revelation just has you blinded to it's conclusion that you state here. Since you say all men were created in Christ with God before the world began, and Jesus Christ became a man, then you needed to include Him in being created with all men by God's spoken word.

You would never independently say we and Christ are created, but you do so in order to maintain the integrity of your revelation.

Now, you can either change the words, as I suggested, or you can try to explain how they do not say what they plainly say.

And if you want to report me for lying about your teaching, then we can go to the moderators with your quoted teaching, and let them decide if we, including Christ, are created.

We were not created in Christ with god before the world, nor was Christ ever created, not with angels nor men. God the Word was not created by the spoken word of God the Father. That is JW heresy.
 

ScottA

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You are saying we, including Christ, are created as image beings from the dust and spoken into being by God from nothing. There is no misunderstanding here. It is what you are saying. it's your own words spoken back to you.

Someone tried to even rebuke me for not saying you believe in the created Christ created with us.

I had to explain your revelation just has you blinded to it's conclusion that you state here. Since you say all men were created in Christ with God before the world began, and Jesus Christ became a man, then you needed to include Him in being created with all men by God's spoken word.

You would never independently say we and Christ are created, but you do so in order to maintain the integrity of your revelation.

Now, you can either change the words, as I suggested, or you can try to explain how they do not say what they plainly say.

And if you want to report me for lying about your teaching, then we can go to the moderators with your quoted teaching, and let them decide if we, including Christ, are created.

We were not created in Christ with god before the world, nor was Christ ever created, not with angels nor men. God the Word was not created by the spoken word of God the Father. That is JW heresy.
Indeed, you do not understand.

In order for Jesus to be fully man (and fully God) he has to have been born of a women (he was) of the same kind (the kind of man) made according to the first Adam.​
In order for Jesus to also be fully God, He has to have been "before the foundation of the world." And in order for Him to be both fully man and fully God, He needs to be born (again) from of the spirit of God, which occurred according to the witness of John the Baptist when the Holy Spirit descended upon Him and remained. Which makes Him firstfruits, able to die and yet live.​
In addition, Jesus also gave of Himself his body to the church, saying, "take, eat, this is my body", the fulfillment of Him becoming the Last Adam, "a life-giving spirit." Thus, those who eat (partake) of Him become His body, thereby joining with Him as One "in Him" who was "before the foundation of the world"..."the same yesterday, today, and forever."​

Thus, no, I have not said anything along the lines that Jesus is not God, but that was not the context of what I was explaining. But rather, on the contrary, with all your going on and on, insisting that He is God, not fully considering the context, you yourself have as much as omitted what qualified Him to also be fully a man in your own explanation.

Which I assume is but a misunderstanding on both our parts.
 

GISMYS_7

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God is outside time and God has already knows who will choose to believe Him unto salvation, and who will not.
 

Davy

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No, it means people can teach something not Scriptural, and end of saying things they don't realize is worse than before. In this case, it is plainly said that men, including Christ, are created. And yet if you you ask them Christ is created, they would deny it and say they don't mean that at all.

Another teach something in a manner of denying Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, and yet when asked, they say that is not their intent at all.

I simply understand that some epople can get so fervently caught up in their revelations and teaching, that they really don't even know what they are truly saying.

I'm charitable in that way. Unless someone plainly says something, then they didn't mean to teach it.

This revelation the man is offering teaches two things: there were souls as gods in Christ, with the Word side by side with God, and that all men, including Christ, are created in the beginning to be with God.

And yet, he denies it vehemently. And I agree his faith is true, that Jesus is both Lord and God, and there are no gods with the Word and God in the beginning. He just doesn't realize his revelation teaches it.
I don't buy all that. If people don't say what they mean, then that reveals a person that is unstable mentally. How then is that kind of person going to open their mouth and speak boldly to make known the mystery of The Gospel? (Ephesians 6:20)

Christ's servants do not speak 'double-speak'.

Heb 2 is confirming the fact that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, with the same natural body as all men. Man is equal with angels spiritually by being created in the image of God, but are a little lower than the spiritual bodies of angels by being formed with natural flesh. But saved men and women will be honored in Christ above the angels, when resurrected from the dead in His likeness.

The main reason some talk like Christ is created, is because they don't make difference between spirit and flesh. Jesus was made flesh, like all men, but He was not created like all men spiritually in the image of God. Mans natural body is not created by the Spirit in the image of God, but simply from the dust of the earth. It is actually Christ who came in the image and likeness of men with mortal flesh and blood.
You show you don't understand Hebrews 2 about Christ.

The idea of Hebrews 2:7 is about Christ being born of flesh woman, which is the idea of being made a little lower than the angels, and the reason for this was so as to suffer on the cross for us, which is Hebrew 2:9 explains in final, thus answering verse 7.

Heb 2:7
7 Thou madest Him a little lower than the angels; Thou crownedst Him with glory and honour, and didst set Him over the works of Thy hands:
KJV

Heb 2:9
9 But we see Jesus,
Who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
KJV


That ain't got nuttin' to do with some kind of equality or inequality of Christ with angels. Jesus IS GOD come in the flesh, which is what His name Immanuel in Isaiah 7 means, i.e., God with us.

Thusly, just because Jesus' Spirit was born into a flesh body did NOT mean He stopped being GOD Immanuel even while in... the flesh. So all this junk about Jesus being a 'human' refers to a FLESH BODY ONLY, and NOT about His Spirit as GOD while living inside that flesh body! And it appears the Jews struggle with understanding this when it is testified of in God's Word many times.
 

Gilligan

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Indeed, you do not understand.

In order for Jesus to be fully man (and fully God) he has to have been born of a women (he was) of the same kind (the kind of man) made according to the first Adam.​
True. Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, whose flesh alone was made of the seed of Adam by David. His natural body was made and prepared for Him by the Holy Spirit. And He came down from heaven to dwell in it.

All other men's bodies are made by Christ, whose Spirit breathes our souls into them.

In order for Jesus to also be fully God, He has to have been "before the foundation of the world."​
True. Any other being with Him at that time, is no god at all, and never was with Him at that time.

And in order for Him to be both fully man and fully God, He needs to be born (again) from of the spirit of God, which occurred according to the witness of John the Baptist when the Holy Spirit descended upon Him and remained.​
Jesus was begotten of God coming into the world with mortal flesh and blood. He was not born again of the Spirit of God, because He never sinned.

God was never born of God the Spirit. You keep stepping into it.


In addition, Jesus also gave of Himself his body to the church, saying, "take, eat, this is my body",​
He did not give His mortal body to eat, nor His immortal flesh and bones.

He ate with the disciples after His resurrection. The disciples did not eat His resurrected body. Nor do we now.

His spiritual flesh and blood that we eat and drink is obedience and sanctification in the Spirit.

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.

We drink His sprinkled blood, when we obey Him, and so have the same everlasting life of the Spirit of Christ within our souls, not our flesh and blood tissues and bones.



Thus, those who eat (partake) of Him become His body,​
We are of His flesh and of His bones. We are not His resurrected flesh and bones on earth. We are of God. We are not God.

We will have our own resurrected flesh and bones, like He has His own, that looks exactly the same in appearance as He did before the cross.
 

Gilligan

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Thus, those who eat (partake) of Him become His body, thereby joining with Him as One "in Him" who was "before the foundation of the world"..."the same yesterday, today, and forever."


This false revelation is due to your false teaching that God creates both soul and body of man in His image.

Man is created in the spiritual image of God, who is Spirit. Man's body is formed of the dust of the earth, which is natural like any other living creature on earth. The form of our bodily shape is not the image of God.

Christ was made a body in the image and likeness of man, as opposed to an ape. Christ was not created in God's image by His Spirit, at all.

Therefore, you preach a false christ, as being created by the spoken word of God, when he came in the flesh in the likeness of man.

"Thus, it is as I said, we (including Christ) are created in the form of "image" beings made from the dust of the earth (light and energy), spoken into being out of a void of nothing."

The physical form of man is not created in the image of God. God came down from heaven, when the Holy Spirit prepared for Him a physical body in the image and form of man. Jesus was not created like men in the image of God at that time.

That's why you ought not say, we (including Christ) are created in image of God.

you yourself have as much as omitted what qualified Him to also be fully a man in your own explanation.
Jesus is not fully God and man by being created with man in the image of God. He is fully God creating all men's souls in His image. He was fully man by taking on Himself the form of man in natural flesh and blood.

Which I assume is but a misunderstanding on both our parts.

I have understood you perfectly brother, but you are not willing to understand the source of your error, by which you claim Christ is created in the image of God like men.

Your teaching, that man's flesh and blood is created in the image of God, is false.

Jesus Christ was not created in the image of God, when He came in the flesh with image and likeness of man.

You find yourself therefore trying to parse a difference between Christ being created a man in the image of God, and Christ being created by the spoken word of God.
 

ScottA

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True. Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, whose flesh alone was made of the seed of Adam by David. His natural body was made and prepared for Him by the Holy Spirit. And He came down from heaven to dwell in it.

All other men's bodies are made by Christ, whose Spirit breathes our souls into them.


True. Any other being with Him at that time, is no god at all, and never was with Him at that time.


Jesus was begotten of God coming into the world with mortal flesh and blood. He was not born again of the Spirit of God, because He never sinned.

God was never born of God the Spirit. You keep stepping into it.



He did not give His mortal body to eat, nor His immortal flesh and bones.

He ate with the disciples after His resurrection. The disciples did not eat His resurrected body. Nor do we now.

His spiritual flesh and blood that we eat and drink is obedience and sanctification in the Spirit.

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.

We drink His sprinkled blood, when we obey Him, and so have the same everlasting life of the Spirit of Christ within our souls, not our flesh and blood tissues and bones.




We are of His flesh and of His bones. We are not His resurrected flesh and bones on earth. We are of God. We are not God.

We will have our own resurrected flesh and bones, like He has His own, that looks exactly the same in appearance as He did before the cross.
Each of your responses has error--and yet you preach. But I have already explained--I teach, but you have rejected it.

So be it.
 

Gilligan

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I don't buy all that. If people don't say what they mean, then that reveals a person that is unstable mentally.
Well, I agree that being confused about what we are teaching from the Bible shows we are unstable in spirit and mind.

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

I am only pointing out that some people can get so caught up in some new inspiration or revelation of their own, that they begin to imply and even say things that they would not normally agree with. It happens when others are a sounding board to show them exactly what they are saying.

Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

I have been in situations where my words were put back to me in such a stark manner, that I had to rethink what I was believing and saying. In this case, someone is refusing to even acknowledge the obvious of what he is saying. I say its the difference between being correctible and not. Even when he is plainly shown that his own words say what he would ever confess to, he still refuses to rethink them. It's called knowledge pride by Paul.

Christ's servants do not speak 'double-speak'.
True. but confused teachers do. Uncorrectable teachers won't acknowledge it.

You show you don't understand Hebrews 2 about Christ.

The idea of Hebrews 2:7 is about Christ being born of flesh woman, which is the idea of being made a little lower than the angels, and the reason for this was so as to suffer on the cross for us, which is Hebrew 2:9 explains in final, thus answering verse 7.
True. He came as a man in natural flesh and blood, that He might be able to die for the sins of all men.

I was not addressing that part, but the the false doctrine of confusing the soul being made in the image of God, and the body from dust of the earth. The body is not made in the image of God, but is made of natural flesh and blood, which Jesus came in to die on the cross for our sakes.


Heb 2:7
7 Thou madest Him a little lower than the angels; Thou crownedst Him with glory and honour, and didst set Him over the works of Thy hands:
KJV

Heb 2:9
9 But we see Jesus,
Who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
KJV


That ain't got nuttin' to do with some kind of equality or inequality of Christ with angels.
The inequality of man with angels is not in our spiritual being, but in our mortal flesh we must dwell in for a season. Angels are created with spiritual bodies, that are higher and better than flesh and blood.

Jesus IS GOD come in the flesh, which is what His name Immanuel in Isaiah 7 means, i.e., God with us.

True.
Thusly, just because Jesus' Spirit was born into a flesh body did NOT mean He stopped being GOD Immanuel even while in... the flesh.
True. He was still God, even while in a mortal body like all men.

So all this junk about Jesus being a 'human' refers to a FLESH BODY ONLY, and NOT about His Spirit as GOD while living inside that flesh body!
Amen to that. I prefer to say he was all man bodily, but not all human, because being human in the minds of most men is to be sinful. Such as, "Well, I'm only human afterall."

And it appears the Jews struggle with understanding this when it is testified of in God's Word many times.
They struggled understanding that the Messiah would first come as a man, and rebuke their errors and sins face to face. They're still waiting for their own Messiah to come in his own name to wipe out their physical enemies.

They'll readily accept the last great false antichrist coming in the flesh and calling fire down from heaven in their sight.

I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
 

Gilligan

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IAnd in order for Him to be both fully man and fully God, He needs to be born (again) from of the spirit of God,
Christ the Word was not born of God in the beginning, but only when born of a woman in the flesh.

This is more created or born christ of God stuff.
 

Gilligan

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Each of your responses has error--and yet you preach. But I have already explained--I teach, but you have rejected it.

So be it.
Yeah, so be it.

Jesus Christ is not created with man from nothing.
 

Davy

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Well, I agree that being confused about what we are teaching from the Bible shows we are unstable in spirit and mind.
That's what 'you' say, which is not what I said. So now you are on a new subject. Now what was it I said about stability of mind?

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

I am only pointing out that some people can get so caught up in some new inspiration or revelation of their own, that they begin to imply and even say things that they would not normally agree with. It happens when others are a sounding board to show them exactly what they are saying.
Nah, I don't buy that line of thinking either. Like Apostle Peter said, there is no private interpretation of God's Word. And Apostle Paul said those in Christ should be speaking the same thing. So if someone is pushing their 'own' idea, they simply have left God's Word and that's all there is to that, except this...

How exactly... is someone going to 'know'... when others are pushing an idea of their own and claiming it is God's Word? Easy, those who have actually... STUDIED all of God's Word will know.

And... a certain level of speculation is allowed, but that does not mean we have properly understood the Scripture yet. We still must keep a matter we don't yet understand on a shelf, asking God to give us understanding about it, you know, not making a final decision about it yet. And it may be that He wants us to know something else first in His Word that might relate to it. Then He will show us. Our Heavenly Father knows what we think and what we need and when. This is why God covers a topic in multiple places in His Word. Thus multiple Scripture witnesses of a matter is the proper way that leads to proper interpretation of His Word.

Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

I have been in situations where my words were put back to me in such a stark manner, that I had to rethink what I was believing and saying. In this case, someone is refusing to even acknowledge the obvious of what he is saying. I say its the difference between being correctible and not. Even when he is plainly shown that his own words say what he would ever confess to, he still refuses to rethink them. It's called knowledge pride by Paul.
Well, if what you were saying can't be backed up in God's Word, then I'd agree one doing that should receive that kind of reaction. And if the one refusing to acknowledge doesn't know enough Bible Scripture in order to truly disagree, then simply leave that deceived person alone. Pray for them, and go on to someone that wants help in God's Word. But to be able to do that of course, you'd first have to have God's calling and urge of The Holy Spirit, and already had disciplined yourself in God's Holy Writ like Apostle Paul recommended to Timothy.

True. but confused teachers do. Uncorrectable teachers won't acknowledge it.
Should a Bible teacher called by God that has shown in Scripture what they're teaching be seen as 'correctable' in your view? With trying to correct those who have shown you in the Scriptures, who is actually the one in that situation that needs correction? Not the teacher, but the student, just as it is with all proper school education systems. The teaching of God's Word and being able to prove a point written in Bible Scripture is no different. Some just have the seed of rebellion in their hearts against any... system of learning, even against God's Holy Writ. Like the famous quote in the movie The Wild One, Marlon Brando is asked what he is rebelling against, and answers, "What have ya got?"

True. He came as a man in natural flesh and blood, that He might be able to die for the sins of all men.

I was not addressing that part, but the the false doctrine of confusing the soul being made in the image of God, and the body from dust of the earth. The body is not made in the image of God, but is made of natural flesh and blood, which Jesus came in to die on the cross for our sakes.
I see no excuse for any believer in The Father and His Son not understanding God's Word where all that is explained, which I have covered many times also on this very Forum. At this point, I will only say that God's Word shows our flesh body is not the 'real' us, i.e. not our real person. Our spirit and soul, which are attached together and leave our flesh body, is our actual person, and continues on to God when our flesh dies.

Likewise, with Lord Jesus, His Spirit was always God The Christ, even when He was still in Mary's womb. His Spirit inside His flesh body did not change; He simply chose to allow His flesh body limitations to be like we experience, except when it was needed for Him to escape those limitations (like upon the mount of transfiguration, working miracles, etc.).

The inequality of man with angels is not in our spiritual being, but in our mortal flesh we must dwell in for a season. Angels are created with spiritual bodies, that are higher and better than flesh and blood.
New flash: you already have a 'spirit' body inside you right now. At death of your flesh body, your spirit body with soul leaves and goes back to God. This was an elementary teaching in Ecclesiastes 12:5-7. And the New Testament Scriptures covers the most detail about it, like 1 Corinthians 15 and 2 Corinthians 12. How do you think the one Paul spoke of that was 'caught up' to Paradise saw and heard Heavenly things, and still lived to talk about it? It wasn't by his flesh that he was able to see into the Heavenly Paradise. The flesh is just earthly material matter of this earthly realm, and not spirit-soul which is of the Heavenly realm (Eccl.12:5-7 again, and John 3:6).

True.

True. He was still God, even while in a mortal body like all men.

Amen to that. I prefer to say he was all man bodily, but not all human, because being human in the minds of most men is to be sinful. Such as, "Well, I'm only human afterall."
I don't get into the usage of the 'humanist' terms like modern Bibles use (i.e., NIV). The word 'human' is vague if trying to explain differences in any spiritual sense. It's simply about a flesh body, but not everyone agrees with that. So better to just go ahead and say flesh body that is more specific, which is the idea Apostle Paul used in places like Romans 7.

They struggled understanding that the Messiah would first come as a man, and rebuke their errors and sins face to face. They're still waiting for their own Messiah to come in his own name to wipe out their physical enemies.
I hate to say it, but the many of my Christian brethren I've spoken with still struggle with the idea of Christ being Immanuel (God with us) born in the flesh. They don't believe Jesus of Nazareth is God Immanuel (Isaiah 7), nor do they believe that He even existed before being born in the flesh. The wrong interpretation of that Hebrews 2:7 verse without continued to read Hebrews 2:9, is one of those reasons. So there's that one-verse vain teaching that many preachers do today. And some preachers today don't even quote... The Bible in sermons anymore! (I had that experience from an invite to hear a preacher who had a PhD. from Vanderbilt Theological Seminary.)

They'll readily accept the last great false antichrist coming in the flesh and calling fire down from heaven in their sight.

I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Well, God's Word does not teach that the final Antichrist coming for the end "great tribulation" will be a flesh human. That idea is an assumption by men's doctrines, simply because they don't understand how those in the Heavenly realm can appear here on earth in our dimension without the need to take on a flesh body. Satan, the "dragon" of Rev.12 and Rev.13 is who that Antichrist will be, and he will appear here on earth in 'our' dimension. He also has the image of man, because the image of man originates with God's Own Image Likeness (Genesis 1:26-27). So I don't know why some you guys here struggle with that point about the image of man. It's what the angels have too.

And yes, that last verse you quoted about another coming in his own name, Lord Jesus was pointing to the final Antichrist at the end with that.
 
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Gilligan

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Like Apostle Peter said, there is no private interpretation of God's Word.
This is a commonly misunderstood conclusion. Peter is not saying there are no private interpretations of Scripture, but that personal speculation ought not be taught for Scripture, unless or until Scripture proves them true. No prophecy, teaching, preaching of Scripture should be of any private interpretation not proven by Scripture.


So if someone is pushing their 'own' idea, they simply have left God's Word and that's all there is to that, except this...
This is what I am saying about there can be private interpretations, but just don't teach them without Scriptural proof.

We can have personal insights and leaps of imagination about Scripture, but they ,ust be first proven to teach them as truth of God.

How exactly... is someone going to 'know'... when others are pushing an idea of their own and claiming it is God's Word? Easy, those who have actually... STUDIED all of God's Word will know.
Actually it's easier than having to know all Scripture.

A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject.

All it takes is one or two verses that plainly contradict the theory, to do away with it, or at least to correct it to conformity of those verses.

This is why God covers a topic in multiple places in His Word. Thus multiple Scripture witnesses of a matter is the proper way that leads to proper interpretation of His Word.
Exactly again. A true interpretation will begin to see all manner of Scriptures appearing to support it. A false interpretation will be found twisting all manner of Scripture to make it appear the Bible supports it. There's a difference, that can be seen as the case it argued.


And if the one refusing to acknowledge doesn't know enough Bible Scripture in order to truly disagree, then simply leave that deceived person alone.
True, however it's not so much about having 'enough knowledge', but having integrity enough to be corrected by one or two Scriptures.

Pray for them, and go on to someone that wants help in God's Word.
Exactly. It can be just as seductive to try and force the truth, as it is to continue arguing a lie.

But to be able to do that of course, you'd first have to have God's calling and urge of The Holy Spirit, and already had disciplined yourself in God's Holy Writ like Apostle Paul recommended to Timothy.
True again. Not only the discipline of rightly dividing the word of truth, but also the disciple of not endlessly arguing over heresies.

Like the famous quote in the movie The Wild One, Marlon Brando is asked what he is rebelling against, and answers, "What have ya got?"
Nice take. However, nihilism is not teaching something false, but simply rejecting anything of authority.

I will only say that God's Word shows our flesh body is not the 'real' us, i.e. not our real person. Our spirit and soul, which are attached together and leave our flesh body, is our actual person, and continues on to God when our flesh dies.
Amen to that brother. The natural man rejects any spirit and soul, but there are theologians that makes spirit, soul, and body the same thing. A source teaching for JW rejection of Jesus is Lord and God, is actually based on a natural theology that the soul is the natural body and so the soul is mortal flesh and blood. They say the soul dies with the body, and conclude by carnal thinking, that since Jesus was a man that died bodily, He cannot be God.



Likewise, with Lord Jesus, His Spirit was always God The Christ, even when He was still in Mary's womb.
Exactly. The Word came down from heaven, to dwell in the natural body prepared for Him by the Spirit in the womb of Mary. And so, God the Word was made flesh, with a natural body made of the seed of David, Abraham, Noah, and of Adam.

The body of man is not made in the image of God, Who is Spirit, but is made and formed of the dust, the same as all living creatures, but with entirely different shape. It is Christ who came down to earth, to take on Him a natural body in the likeness of men. Not in the likeness and image of apes or giraffes.

His Spirit inside His flesh body did not change; He simply chose to allow His flesh body limitations to be like we experience, except when it was needed for Him to escape those limitations (like upon the mount of transfiguration, working miracles, etc.).
True. He also could have called down legions of angels to defend Him against Judas' allies.

New flash: you already have a 'spirit' body inside you right now.
Agreed, our souls are still created in the lowest parts of the earth and wrapped in the womb to come into this world, housed in an earthen vessel of natural flesh and blood.

But I am speaking of how angels never have their bodies of spirit clothed with flesh. Being made flesh and blood is a little downgrade from that of angels. Also, our spiritual bodies are not clothed in immortal physical bodies, until the resurrection of the dead.


The flesh is just earthly material matter of this earthly realm, and not spirit-soul which is of the Heavenly realm (Eccl.12:5-7 again, and John 3:6).
True. Jesus turns our eyes from flesh and blood, to the spiritual man and God, by saying natural flesh has no profit in it. It's the inner man of the heart, that we ought clothe with honor, praise, and glory of Christ. This inner spiritual works is seen in outer honest and godly living.

I don't get into the usage of the 'humanist' terms like modern Bibles use (i.e., NIV). The word 'human' is vague if trying to explain differences in any spiritual sense.
Now this is a big amen. I too always try to stick to Bible words. Calling ourselves 'human' is a secular word, that is used many times by the world to corrupt or even dismiss the soul of man. It is also used by the world, and some hypocritical Christians, that say sinning is 'only being human', and so long as we are still 'only human', then we will continue sinning on earth like all humans.


I hate to say it, but the many of my Christian brethren I've spoken with still struggle with the idea of Christ being Immanuel (God with us) born in the flesh. They don't believe Jesus of Nazareth is God Immanuel (Isaiah 7), nor do they believe that He even existed before being born in the flesh.
These are the heretics that claim Christian religion only. They are not Christians in Christ. If we do not believe Christ is both Lord and God, it is not possible to be a born again son of God.
 

Gilligan

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Well, God's Word does not teach that the final Antichrist coming for the end "great tribulation" will be a flesh human.
And so, we have case in point to test correction of an interpretation by one or two Scriptures. He is a man, because Scripture says he is that man of sin, and his number is of a man, and that man with his false prophet is cast alive into the lake of fire, before Satan is also cast therein about a thousand years later.



He also has the image of man, because the image of man originates with God's Own Image Likeness (Genesis 1:26-27).
I thought you knew and teach the difference between the soul created in God's image, and the body shaped from the dust in an image different from all other creatures on earth.

Only the soul 'originates' in God's own spiritual image and likeness. Not the body, which cannot take on the image of God, Who is spirit. It's the Word that took on Himself the likeness and image of man, rather than gorillas and penguins.


So I don't know why some you guys here struggle with that point about the image of man. It's what the angels have too.
We don't know what angels look like in their spiritual bodies, because God never says. We know what certain heavenly creatures in His throne room look like, but not angels themselves.

The description of the the archangel Lucifer is entirely different from that of man's natural face and body.

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Angels are also called sons of God, not because they look like men on earth, but rather because they too are created in the spiritual image of God. Both angels and souls of men are created spiritually with power and hearts to think, intend, and imagination according to their own will, just as God, whether to obey God or rebel against Him.
And yes, that last verse you quoted about another coming in his own name, Lord Jesus was pointing to the final Antichrist at the end with that.
True. The last great antichrist, of which there already have been many.

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


All antichrists are false apostles with false gospels led by the devil, but they are all men, not the devil himself.

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

The dragon will be the god of this world, that is no longer the prince and power of the air, but is cast down to earth and reduced to needing to enter a man, in order to have power of others by words and actions of a man.
 

Davy

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This is a commonly misunderstood conclusion. Peter is not saying there are no private interpretations of Scripture, but that personal speculation ought not be taught for Scripture, unless or until Scripture proves them true. No prophecy, teaching, preaching of Scripture should be of any private interpretation not proven by Scripture.
You wish it were, but it ain't. Peter meant exactly what he said, but you DENY that Scripture, and thus YOUR words should be denied, for you show the works of a deceiver. YOU HAVE NO PRIVATE INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE.
 

Gilligan

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Peter meant exactly what he said
Of course He did. He says no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation. He does not say no Scripture is of any private interpretation. We just ought not to teach Scripture from our own personal ideas about Scripture, unless they are proven by Scripture to be true.

You make a simple error by sloppy reading of the Scripture, in order to inject your own personal interpretation into it, to wit, there are no private interpretations of Scripture.

if what you teach is true, then you should never offer any suggestions nor ideas about possible interpretation if any Scripture. You say there should never be any firendly specualtion about any verse of Scripture. But the simple rule is don
t teach such suggestions as though they were proven true.

YOU HAVE NO PRIVATE INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE.
Sure I do. I have both private interpretations, that I acknowledged are not 'yet' proven when I share them

One is that I believe the last great antichrist may well be an old deceased false prophet raised from the grave by the Lord for the specific purpose of being the greatest false christ and deceiver ever, for the specific purpose of trying the saints' faith in Scripture, as the only truth of God. He will be the most convincing false apostle making himself to appear as Christ Himself coming for the second time in the flesh. Afterall, he would be lying by saying he was raised from the dead. I vote for Korah, who fell alive into the pit of hell, and would then be cast alive into the LOF.

That is a private interpretation based upon certain Scriptures that at least suggest it. There is also plenty of men raised from the dead by the Lord, including one touching the bones of dead prophet, and Lazarus, and however many OT saints risen from their graves at Jesus death on the cross.

And there is no Scripture directly contradicting such an interpretation. A private interpretation is only a possible interpretation, that is not completely proven, and is not obviously contradicted by any Scripture.

And you're much too touchy-feely, since you go to great accusation against someone who 'dares' to disagree with you.

YOU HAVE NO PRIVATE INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE.
This is a perfect example of a false private interpretation of Scripture, that is from sloppy reading of the Scripture.