Christian Predeterminism Exposed

[The Learner]

You can't even keep the Scripture reference straight, much less what Jesus said there in John 17. So how could you ever come to understand about His chosen elect 'sent' ones that never believed on their own during this present world?

pre·de·ter·min·ism
/ˌprēdəˈtərməˌniz(ə)m/

noun

1. the belief that all events, including human actions, are established or decided in advance.
   
   
   Only example I can think of is
   

   Ephesians 2:10
   
   King James Version
   
   ​

   10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[The Learner]

ordain
verb
or·dain ȯr-ˈdān
ordained; ordaining; ordains
Synonyms of ordain
transitive verb

1
: to invest (see INVEST entry 2 sense 1) officially (as by the laying on of hands) with ministerial or priestly authority
was ordained as a priest
2
a
: to establish or order by appointment, decree, or law : ENACT
we the people … do ordain and establish this Constitution
—U.S. Constitution
b
: DESTINE, FOREORDAIN
It is futile to try to avoid what destiny has ordained.
intransitive verb

: to issue an order
so the gods have ordained
ordainer noun
ordainment
ȯr-ˈdān-mənt
noun

 

[The Learner]

John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Acts 10:42
And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Romans 13:1
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

1 Corinthians 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Oh, that is the definition being used by ( I forget who ).

 

[The Learner]

Could someone else answewr the queestions I asked, tahks daniel

 

[The Learner]

Romans 9
Easy-to-Read Version
God and the Jewish People
9 I am in Christ and I am telling you the truth. I am not lying. And my conscience, ruled by the Holy Spirit, agrees that what I say now is true. 2 I have great sorrow and always feel much sadness 3 for my own people. They are my brothers and sisters, my earthly family. I wish I could help them. I would even have a curse on me and cut myself off from Christ if that would help them. 4 They are the people of Israel, God’s chosen children. They have the glory of God and the agreements he made between himself and his people. God gave them the Law of Moses, the Temple worship, and his promises. 5 They are the descendants of our great fathers, and they are the earthly family of the Messiah, who is God over all things. Praise him forever![a] Amen.

6 I don’t mean that God failed to keep his promise to the Jewish people. But only some of the people of Israel are really God’s people.[] 7 And only some of Abraham’s descendants are true children of Abraham. This is what God said to Abraham: “Your true descendants will be those who come through Isaac.”[c] 8 This means that not all of Abraham’s descendants are God’s true children. Abraham’s true children are those who become God’s children because of the promise he made to Abraham. 9 Here is what God said in that promise: “About this time next year I will come back, and Sarah will have a son.”[d]

10 And that is not all. Rebecca also had sons, and they had the same father. He is our father Isaac. 11-12 But before the two sons were born, God told Rebecca, “The older son will serve the younger.”[e] This was before the boys had done anything good or bad. God said this before they were born so that the boy he wanted would be chosen because of God’s own plan. He was chosen because he was the one God wanted to call, not because of anything the boys did. 13 As the Scriptures say, “I loved Jacob, but I hated Esau.”[f]

14 So what does this mean? That God is not fair? We cannot say that. 15 God said to Moses, “I will show mercy to anyone I want to show mercy to. I will show pity to anyone I choose.”[g] 16 So God will choose anyone he decides to show mercy to, and his choice does not depend on what people want or try to do. 17 In the Scriptures God says to Pharaoh: “I made you king so that you could do this for me. I wanted to show my power through you. I wanted my name to be announced throughout the world.”[h] 18 So God shows mercy to those he wants to show mercy to and makes stubborn those he wants to make stubborn.

19 So one of you will ask me, “If God controls what we do, why does he blame us for our sins?” 20 Don’t ask that. You are only human and have no right to question God. A clay jar does not question the one who made it. It does not say, “Why did you make me like this?” 21 The one who makes the jar can make anything he wants. He uses the same clay to make different things. He might make one thing for special purposes and another for daily use.

22 It is the same way with what God has done. He wanted to show his anger and to let people see his power. But he patiently endured those he was angry with—people who were ready to be destroyed. 23 He waited with patience so that he could make known the riches of his glory to the people he has chosen to receive his mercy. God has already prepared them to share his glory. 24 We are those people, the ones God chose not only from the Jews but also from those who are not Jews. 25 As the Scriptures say in the book of Hosea,

“The people who are not mine—
I will say they are my people.
And the people I did not love—
I will say they are the people I love.”

26 And,

“Where God said in the past,
‘You are not my people’—
there they will be called children of the living God.”

27 And Isaiah cries out about Israel:

“There are so many people of Israel,
they are like the grains of sand by the sea.
But only a few of them will be saved.
28 Yes, the Lord will quickly finish judging the people on the earth.”

29 It is just as Isaiah said:

“The Lord All-Powerful
allowed some of our people to live.
If he had not done that,
we would now be like Sodom,
and we would be like Gomorrah.”

30 So what does all this mean? It means that people who are not Jews were made right with God because of their faith, even though they were not trying to make themselves right. 31 And the people of Israel, who tried to make themselves right with God by following the law, did not succeed. 32 They failed because they tried to make themselves right by the things they did. They did not trust in God to make them right. They fell over the stone that makes people fall. 33 The Scriptures talk about that stone:

“Look, I put in Zion a stone that will make people stumble.
It is a rock that will make people fall.
But anyone who trusts in him
will never be disappointed.”

Footnotes
Romans 9:5 Messiah, who is … forever! Or “Messiah. May God, who rules over all things, be praised forever!”
Romans 9:6 God’s people Literally, “Israel,” the people God chose to bring his blessings to the world.
Romans 9:7 Quote from Gen. 21:12.
Romans 9:9 Quote from Gen. 18:10, 14.
Romans 9:11 Quote from Gen. 25:23.
Romans 9:13 Quote from Mal. 1:2-3.
Romans 9:15 Quote from Ex. 33:19.
Romans 9:17 Quote from Ex. 9:16.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Is that what I said? If you are going to respond to my posts then it would help if you understood them and quoited them accurately....what did I say next that answers your question...?

"the fact that sin and imperfection are an inextricable part of humanity does not excuse disobedience. The sin that is in us only offends God when we willfully practice what God’s word tells us not to do. If we are trying to the best of our imperfect ability to obey God in all things, then that is all that God requires of us for now......perfection and sinlessness will come at the end of the thousand year rule of the Kingdom. "

Got it now?

Here is what you said.. the post where I quoted and asked if you were sinless..

@ Gilligan there is so much we will disagree on, but no point in disputing them....you have your beliefs and I have mine.

There is only one truth, and only one group of people teach it. They are united in love, all share the same truth, and are directed by Jesus in the work he assigned to all of his disciples.

We cannot be 'lone rangers' in Christ....we have to belong to a brotherhood and all must agree. (1 Cor 1:10)

I belong to a brotherhood that takes its role seriously enough to do what Jesus commanded, rather than to make excuses for why they don't. Its not just about beliefs...its also about conduct. "Doing the will of the father" means obeying the son in all things. (Matt 7:21-23)

You should pay attention more. Or were you tryin got deflect>

You said you were not of those who make excuses. You were of those who obey christ in all things.

Well unless your PERFECT, you have not and do not obey christ in all things..

so again i ask you. Are you trying to excuse your sin?

 

[MatthewG]

I believe God predetermined that people would choose to serve Him and walk with his Son above all other things.

People get really bad when they start to believe in the sense some people are predestined for hell and some predestined for heaven.

The generality of it is simply - there were people whom choose to serve God above themselves even though they may get in disagreements or even become bondage to sin. Jesus came, and there was predestined prophecies made about him and they came true, bringing light in to the world and all mankind.

So… what the choice to believe about predeterminism?

One you can see God having a group of elect people whom where of that generation when Jesus had stood and walked and even proclaimed to others about coming back to get the bride. Gods new wife - the Church of Christ - in a new heavenly home Heavenly Jerusalem. God was going to divorce Jerusalem of Earth. By the return of Christ and the ending of the Jewish age and ways as they understood them. Their heaven and earth came crashing down.

You can also see where Gods judgment with the wrath being poured on Jerusalem; was done and over and Yeshua having the victory over all things, Satan, Demons, Sin, Death, Hell/Hades. And everyone within that generation of the promise return of Christ in which the signs foretold would be seen in which marked the nearing end with the divorcement of Jerusalem of Earth for having killed the son of man.

And upon this return I suppose it was either before, or during the siege of Jerusalem when those who were going up to the festival in which they were watching, waiting and seeking and they were taken away once the war had begun, or perhaps taken away being changed from earthly to heavenly during the siege, holding on to their life in faith that God would deliver them - and they would see Jesus come and they would be changed.

Thanks for considering.

 

[MatthewG]

I believe God predetermined that people would choose to serve Him and walk with his Son above all other things.

People get really bad when they start to believe in the sense some people are predestined for hell and some predestined for heaven.

The generality of it is simply - there were people whom choose to serve God above themselves even though they may get in disagreements or even become bondage to sin. Jesus came, and there was predestined prophecies made about him and they came true, bringing light in to the world and all mankind.

So… what the choice to believe about predeterminism?

One you can see God having a group of elect people whom where of that generation when Jesus had stood and walked and even proclaimed to others about coming back to get the bride. Gods new wife - the Church of Christ - in a new heavenly home Heavenly Jerusalem. God was going to divorce Jerusalem of Earth. By the return of Christ and the ending of the Jewish age and ways as they understood them. Their heaven and earth came crashing down.

You can also see where Gods judgment with the wrath being poured on Jerusalem; was done and over and Yeshua having the victory over all things, Satan, Demons, Sin, Death, Hell/Hades. And everyone within that generation of the promise return of Christ in which the signs foretold would be seen in which marked the nearing end with the divorcement of Jerusalem of Earth for having killed the son of man.

And upon this return I suppose it was either before, or during the siege of Jerusalem when those who were going up to the festival in which they were watching, waiting and seeking and they were taken away once the war had begun, or perhaps taken away being changed from earthly to heavenly during the siege, holding on to their life in faith that God would deliver them - and they would see Jesus come and they would be changed.

Thanks for considering.

When considering these things, I believe it’s not a mistake to really consider the sufferings of the first century Christian’s was far worse than by todays standards.

Especially during the reign of Nero.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Here is what you said.. the post where I quoted and asked if you were sinless..


You should pay attention more. Or were you tryin got deflect>

You said you were not of those who make excuses. You were of those who obey christ in all things.

Well unless your PERFECT, you have not and do not obey christ in all things..

How do you know that? Do you know what the will of the Father is?

Did the apostles who were the first of the "chosen ones" obey Christ in all things?

How many times did Jesus have to correct them about who was claiming to be the greatest?

What did he tell Peter on the night of his arrest? When the rooster crowed, what did Peter do?

When Peter cut off the ear of the High Priest's slave, what was Jesus' response?

so again i ask you. Are you trying to excuse your sin?

No one can excuse sin....but at least we are doing what Christ commanded and are taking "the good news of the Kingdom" out into "the entire inhabited earth"...all bearing the same message and to teach the same truth. (Matt 24:14) I don't see the churches actively doing that because I guess they can't....or won't. Why is that? I have asked people to whom I have preached why their churches do not fulfill the great commission?...they seem to think its someone else's job. Is it?

What was the method of preaching in the first century?
Matt 10:11-14...
"Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet."

Does it sound like we should sit in a building waiting for the 'sheep" to come to us....or were we instructed to take the message out to the people? Does this suggest just overseas missionary work, or was this visiting our local area to preach to our neighbors? They walked everywhere in those days.

Acts 20:18-21...to the Ephesian elders Paul said...
"You well know how I conducted myself among you from the first day I stepped into the province of Asia, 19 slaving for the Lord with all humility and with tears and trials that befell me by the plots of the Jews, 20 while I did not hold back from telling you any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching you publicly and from house to house. 21 But I thoroughly bore witness both to Jews and to Greeks about repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus."

Again, what were the first Christians doing to spread the word...? They were "teaching publicly and from house to house" as Jesus commanded them....that is the way that emergency services warn people of an approaching disaster, so no one is missed.

Matt 28:19-20...
"Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

Since Jesus said that he would be "with" his disciples all the days until the end of this world system, who are doing the will of the Father by participating in the biggest preaching campaign in mankind's history, under the direction of God's son?

When was the last time any church in Christendom participated in preaching the good news of God's Kingdom to anyone?
They preach various messages to the converted in a building that they hope some people might wander into......that is not what Jesus taught his disciples to do....is it?
Or they might offer free food or other incentives to get 'backsides on seats'.....which means that people show up for the freebies.....they called them "rice Christians" in Asia, because they just came to church for the free rice that was handed out at the end of the service.

I asked you before what you thought the will of God was?.....you ignored my question....so now let me ask you this..."what is the good news of God's kingdom" that Jesus told us to preach? Please use scripture.
What is God's Kingdom, and what is its purpose that will be "good news" for people?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

How do you know that? Do you know what the will of the Father is?

Did the apostles who were the first of the "chosen ones" obey Christ in all things?

How many times did Jesus have to correct them about who was claiming to be the greatest?

What did he tell Peter on the night of his arrest? When the rooster crowed, what did Peter do?

When Peter cut off the ear of the High Priest's slave, what was Jesus' response?

No one can excuse sin....but at least we are doing what Christ commanded and are taking "the good news of the Kingdom" out into "the entire inhabited earth"...all bearing the same message and to teach the same truth. (Matt 24:14) I don't see the churches actively doing that because I guess they can't....or won't. Why is that? I have asked people to whom I have preached why their churches do not fulfill the great commission?...they seem to think its someone else's job. Is it?

What was the method of preaching in the first century?
Matt 10:11-14...
"Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet."

Does it sound like we should sit in a building waiting for the 'sheep" to come to us....or were we instructed to take the message out to the people? Does this suggest just overseas missionary work, or was this visiting our local area to preach to our neighbors? They walked everywhere in those days.

Acts 20:18-21...to the Ephesian elders Paul said...
"You well know how I conducted myself among you from the first day I stepped into the province of Asia, 19 slaving for the Lord with all humility and with tears and trials that befell me by the plots of the Jews, 20 while I did not hold back from telling you any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching you publicly and from house to house. 21 But I thoroughly bore witness both to Jews and to Greeks about repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus."

Again, what were the first Christians doing to spread the word...? They were "teaching publicly and from house to house" as Jesus commanded them....that is the way that emergency services warn people of an approaching disaster, so no one is missed.

Matt 28:19-20...
"Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

Since Jesus said that he would be "with" his disciples all the days until the end of this world system, who are doing the will of the Father by participating in the biggest preaching campaign in mankind's history, under the direction of God's son?

When was the last time any church in Christendom participated in preaching the good news of God's Kingdom to anyone?
They preach various messages to the converted in a building that they hope some people might wander into......that is not what Jesus taught his disciples to do....is it?
Or they might offer free food or other incentives to get 'backsides on seats'.....which means that people show up for the freebies.....they called them "rice Christians" in Asia, because they just came to church for the free rice that was handed out at the end of the service.

I asked you before what you thought the will of God was?.....you ignored my question....so now let me ask you this..."what is the good news of God's kingdom" that Jesus told us to preach? Please use scripture.
What is God's Kingdom, and what is its purpose that will be "good news" for people?

see there you go excusing your sin.

Whats different between you excusing your sin, and the people you claimed excuse their sin? You both sin!!

How do I know what Gods will is and what his standard of obedience is?

He gave it to us, in the law..

Cursed is the one who does not confirm and OBEY EVERY word....

Of course the disciples sinned, we all sin. We do not go around making excuses for it. We praise God for his grace. and move on.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Of course the disciples sinned, we all sin

And God does these things to people that sin:

“…shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword; and they shall have none to bury them, them, their wives, nor their sons, nor their daughters: for I will pour their wickedness upon them.” (Jeremiah 14:16)

Boy you’d be in a world of hurt if you lived in those days!

But that’s nothing compared to the lake of fire!

That’s terrifying!!

Watch out!

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men…” (2 Corinthians 5:10-11)

 

[MatthewG]

I still sin.

Anything remotely done that is right and good comes by and through the spirit of God and the spirit of Christ within.

No one can take credit for the good that the spirit creates in the mind and heart by God in a believer who continues to seek our God in their life.

Sure there are blessing but there are also HARD times.

No life has ever just been straight blessed up without some rough stuff happening; like Jesus and his death.

People will get road rage on the road. Or be rude or whatever. Jesus came to help change our heart and mind by looking toward heavenly things than earthly.

And by nature I sin; and I still do sin.

However even though I do God is still with me because of faith; which pleases him.

My hope is mercy; kindness, and the things of the spirit that God has allowed Jesus to pay for sin and take care of it in which frees us from bondage to sin that leads to death either physically or spiritually.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

the disciples sinned

No sin is recorded on any Apostle after believing that Jesus rose from the dead.

 

[Davy]

pre·de·ter·min·ism
/ˌprēdəˈtərməˌniz(ə)m/

noun

1. the belief that all events, including human actions, are established or decided in advance.
   
   
   Only example I can think of is
   

   Ephesians 2:10
   
   King James Version​

   10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Did you never read Jesus say, 'for many are called, but few are chosen'? (Matthew 22:14)

MOST... of us are 'called' only.

But only the few are CHOSEN.

What Lord Jesus showed in John 17 in His prayer to The Father was how His 'very' elect chosen 'sent' ones, His Apostles that did not choose Him, were already predestinated and ordained and sanctified in His service for this present world. And that was determined BEFORE the foundation of the earth.

Eph 1:3-6
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

6 To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the beloved.
KJV

Is that meant about ALL... believers on Jesus Christ?? ONLY... for those who REMAIN FAITHFUL in Jesus Christ and do not... fall away.

That is automatic for Christ's 'very' elect which did not choose Him, but He chose and sent them (i.e., His Apostles, and disciples, those whom He ordained to be faithful leaders in the Faith).

But for those who are 'called' only, IF... they 'remain' steadfast in Christ, all the way to the end, then they are naturally included with His 'very' elect chosen ones, and in THAT SENSE ONLY does this predestination idea apply. And that of course means ONLY the 'faithful' Church that does not fall away.

Now then, about the matter of those 'called' that still CAN FALL AWAY IF THEY SO CHOOSE; that is about most of us that 'hear' The Gospel by the preaching of His 'chosen' that are already predestinated by Christ before the foundation of the world, and then we believe by their word, on The Father and The Son Jesus Christ. As long as we do not fall away, then we are accounted 'with' His faithful chosen elect as ONE body, His Church.

An example of Christ's chosen elect is like Jonah or Apostle Paul. God had ordained Jonah to go preach to the pagans at Nineveh or he was going to destroy that city, and Jonah didn't want to go. Jonah wound up trying to commit suicide to get out of doing what God gave him to do. God preserved him by a great fish, and the fish spewed Jonah right upon the shores of Nineveh. Jonah preached to them and thus Nineveh was saved, but Jonah was angry even after that. The point is, God already 'owns' His predestined chosen, and they will do their duty He gives them. And they will not be deceived nor deterred by Satan and his host, not even to the death.

 

[Gilligan]

You are either imagining things I didn't say, or putting words in my mouth.

What I said was that Jesus Christ was "before the foundation of the world", and "the same yesterday, today, and forever", just as the scriptures do. Are you with me so far?

Yes.

Then I indicated that those who are "in Him" who was "before the foundation of the world" and "the same yesterday, today, and forever" are scripturally and rightfully defined as also being "in Him" "before the foundation of the world."

There is support for this, but only in allegory.

And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

As I may so say is metaphor. Paul is say so to speak in allegory, not declaration of physical fact. And so, in a similar allegorical sense we may also so say we were in Christ in the beginning, but not in spiritual fact. If that were true, we can declare we are with Christ on the new earth, after the end of this world. We may so say we are, but not in physical nor spiritual fact.

We can say so metaphorically as we look for the city of God and a new heaven and earth, and have all our hope in it coming to pass, and even better live like it, but you are speaking of it as a fact. You must say so, since you are speaking of having been with God and the Word before creation as a fact.

The real problem of believing and saying, We were there in the beginning with the Word and with God, is the same as saying, We are there on the new hearth with God and the Lamb.

 

[Gilligan]

Are you with me so far?

Now, here are the implications of believing, as Cronkite would say, You were there:

1. It produces a kind of JW created christ in the beginning with God. Being in Christ is being with Christ.

Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. (Rom 6)

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (rom 8)

So, you are revealing we were there in the beginning with Christ and God. That is to say we were alongside and beside the Word and God in the beginning. IN addition, claiming to have the word of truth revealed in us with the Word and God, you are also saying we were as Christ and God before creation. You are saying by personal revelation, that God and the Word were not alone together in the beginning, but rather we were with Them, as Them, and beside Them.

See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.(Isaiah 45)

That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. (Isaiah 45)

This is specifically true of the beginning, where the Word was with God, but none else was with Him. Your revelation is that in fact we were being as created gods with and beside God and the Word in the beginning. They were in fact not alone. We were with them in revealed word and truth before the world began. And like Jesus Christ in His time on earth, so are we also as christs with God in the beginning, to come down from heaven to be revealed 'in our own time'. JW's say Jesus was the created word and christ with God in the beginning. You are in effect revealing we are created christs with the Word and with God in the beginning.

To claim to be created by the revealed word with God and Christ in the beginning, is also saying we have revelation from God for our own revealed truth, even as the Word. I.e. we received with the Word from God in the beginning, our own revelation of truth in heaven to bring down to earth 'in our own time' like Jesus Christ did 'in His time', with equal authority of Scripture already written. We have recieved revelation from God beside the Word in the beginning, to bring down to man 'in our own time' our own revelation from God beside Scripture.

And is this not your stated claim? You were caught up to heaven, recieved new revelation of truth, and come down again, even as Christ from above, to reveal it to men? And what is that new revelation? That not just you, but we all were there in the beginning with God and beside the Word, being as gods with revealed word of truth.

2. If that is believed, then it must also be believed, that we are with God and the Lamb in new Jerusalem on the new earth. This is an enhanced revelation for predetermination and OSAS doctrine, that says we are chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, and so are predestined with unconditional security by choice of God, to be with God and the Lamb on the new earth. You are going a step further in saying we were there when chosen before the world began, and are there with God and the Lamb after the end of this world. All we have to do like you, is step out of time to see and know it for ourselves.

 

[Gilligan]

"But the word of the Lord was to them, “Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little,” That they might go and fall backward, and be broken And snared and caught."Notice that Isaiah says "was" (past tense). Why does he say "was" before the word of God was even complete? Godly grammatical error? -

While you may have at least a sliver of hope in confirming your new revelation by Heb 7, at least in an allegorical sense, your revelation falls apart in your use of Isaiah 28.

You have disregarded the beginning context of the verse you cite:

Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

This shows your interpretation of was to them, as being to them with Christ in the beginning with God, is false. The word revealed to them is that you say was in Christ in the beginning, was only by Christ in the world after being weaned from milk: the age of knowledge, that some call accountability.

I'm sorry friend, but no man was in nor with nor beside the Word and God in the beginning. No man was created at all in the image of God, until the 6th day of creation. We are both spiritually and naturally created at the same time, spiritually in the lower parts of the earth, and naturally in the womb of our mother.

All revelations must still be confirmed by Scripture, and any of our teachings can be disannulled with any single verse that contradicts it.

No man receives revelation nor understanding of God and His word, until after the babe has been weaned from the milk.

There was only one Word and Christ with God in the beginning, who came down out of heaven as a man, to reveal the word of truth to men. There were not many christs and gods with Them, that are also coming down out of heaven to become sons of God in the flesh, so as to also reveal words of truth beside Scripture.

No one is saying you were not caught up; however, the revelation you came down with is not true. This is not unique, because any believing son of God, that is not yet perfected in heaven, can come away from true spiritual and heavenly experiences with God, with untrue or unprovable revelation. I.e. there is no Scriptural mandate that personal experience with Jesus Christ, whether on earth, or in heaven, results in true revelation to be taught to others. And there certainly is no new revelation of truth, that is not conformed to the Bible we have from the prophets and apostles of Christ. The last new and true revelation for the church on earth, is The Revelation of Jesus Christ given to John to give to us.

It only makes sense that there is no more revelation to man and for man, that must be added to The Revelation of Jesus Christ Himself.

 

[ScottA]

Yes.


There is support for this, but only in allegory.

And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

As I may so say is metaphor. Paul is say so to speak in allegory, not declaration of physical fact. And so, in a similar allegorical sense we may also so say we were in Christ in the beginning, but not in spiritual fact. If that were true, we can declare we are with Christ on the new earth, after the end of this world. We may so say we are, but not in physical nor spiritual fact.

We can say so metaphorically as we look for the city of God and a new heaven and earth, and have all our hope in it coming to pass, and even better live like it, but you are speaking of it as a fact. You must say so, since you are speaking of having been with God and the Word before creation as a fact.

The real problem of believing and saying, We were there in the beginning with the Word and with God, is the same as saying, We are there on the new hearth with God and the Lamb.

Now perhaps we are getting somewhere. Now you seem to have a grasp of what I am saying in accord with what is true of those in Christ in God.

What you have done by suggesting allegory or metaphor is not wrong, for God himself refers to man (who is made of the same elements of all of creation)...as an "image." Which technically makes all of creation metaphor--by God whom is spirit, making it all spirit as well. The error then is to call the image "fact" rather than what the image is of. I have simply stated what the image is all inclusively, or as the scriptures also do by the prayer of Christ that all should be One. Granted, to even think in such a way requires "the renewing of your mind" (also written).

I submit that this the fulfillment of "knowledge shall increase" and the result of being "lead unto all truth", as foretold of these times.

 

[ScottA]

Now, here are the implications of believing, as Cronkite would say, You were there:

1. It produces a kind of JW created christ in the beginning with God. Being in Christ is being with Christ.

Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. (Rom 6)

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (rom 8)

So, you are revealing we were there in the beginning with Christ and God. That is to say we were alongside and beside the Word and God in the beginning. IN addition, claiming to have the word of truth revealed in us with the Word and God, you are also saying we were as Christ and God before creation. You are saying by personal revelation, that God and the Word were not alone together in the beginning, but rather we were with Them, as Them, and beside Them.

See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.(Isaiah 45)

That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. (Isaiah 45)

This is specifically true of the beginning, where the Word was with God, but none else was with Him. Your revelation is that in fact we were being as created gods with and beside God and the Word in the beginning. They were in fact not alone. We were with them in revealed word and truth before the world began. And like Jesus Christ in His time on earth, so are we also as christs with God in the beginning, to come down from heaven to be revealed 'in our own time'. JW's say Jesus was the created word and christ with God in the beginning. You are in effect revealing we are created christs with the Word and with God in the beginning.

To claim to be created by the revealed word with God and Christ in the beginning, is also saying we have revelation from God for our own revealed truth, even as the Word. I.e. we received with the Word from God in the beginning, our own revelation of truth in heaven to bring down to earth 'in our own time' like Jesus Christ did 'in His time', with equal authority of Scripture already written. We have recieved revelation from God beside the Word in the beginning, to bring down to man 'in our own time' our own revelation from God beside Scripture.

And is this not your stated claim? You were caught up to heaven, recieved new revelation of truth, and come down again, even as Christ from above, to reveal it to men? And what is that new revelation? That not just you, but we all were there in the beginning with God and beside the Word, being as gods with revealed word of truth.

2. If that is believed, then it must also be believed, that we are with God and the Lamb in new Jerusalem on the new earth. This is an enhanced revelation for predetermination and OSAS doctrine, that says we are chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, and so are predestined with unconditional security by choice of God, to be with God and the Lamb on the new earth. You are going a step further in saying we were there when chosen before the world began, and are there with God and the Lamb after the end of this world. All we have to do like you, is step out of time to see and know it for ourselves.

I believe I just answered this. Looks like you are processing. Good.

 

[The Learner]

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