The Lake of Fire

[justaname]

Exactly my point LS... read (Isa. 45:23) and understand these people that
are confessing and bowing have FAITH in the true God. God swears that
these unbelievers will have FAITH that Jesus Christ is Lord.

These unbelievers have just become believers. WHY? Because God said
He swears they will accept Him and His Word will not return until all has
confessed and got on their knees in repentance.

Will the unbelievers go through Judgment? You bet they will and it will be
to bring Judgment unto Victory (Matthew 12:20). God's Judgment corrects
and gives us the ability to learn rightousness in the land (Isa. 26:9). He
destroys that old man (1st Adam) that is inside of everyone of us. Paul had
to die everyday and if we live for God we will have to die daily also.

Now let's get something straight right now, that man will be completely
destroyed when we put on our immortal bodies. The reason we struggle
with him today is because God has designed it this way to call out leaders
in His Kingdom that can Overcome him in this mortal state. God is looking
for Overcomers that will become obedient in this temporary weakness He
has put us in (Romans 8:20). If we already had our immortal bodies... we
would be perfect and there would be no need to learn obedience but that's
not the case yet.

The wicked that God will destroy is the carnal minds that are in Christians
and unbelievers alike. The reason people reject God is because of their
carnal minds they inherited from the 1st Adam. The difference between a
believer and an unbeliever is the believer has God on his side in the midst
of his troubles and the unbeliever has to struggle without God.

Will God destroy the wicked... you bet He Will... He's going to set them free.

What a God... what a Plan!


Logabe

You know that sure sounds pretty, and I hope for their sake (the wicked) you are correct. The issue I have is to get your view you have to read into scripture. To get my view you only have to read it. :mellow:

When I approach the scriptures, I read them like a child would. I accept what they say plainly. Of course I ask for guidance by the HolySpirit, but I approach the word like a child.
Matthew 19:14 Luke 18:16

If Jesus says some are going to hell, that is good enough for me. Who am I to try to outwit the Creator of all things?

 

[Lively Stone]

Exactly my point LS... read (Isa. 45:23) and understand these people that
are confessing and bowing have FAITH in the true God. God swears that
these unbelievers will have FAITH that Jesus Christ is Lord.

These unbelievers have just become believers. WHY? Because God said
He swears they will accept Him and His Word will not return until all has
confessed and got on their knees in repentance.

No, that is a false assumption when one knows the word of God. He says that only those who come to Christ by faith believing will see the Kingdom. Everyone will bow, but the unbelievers will do so as unto an overcoming ruler, bending their knee as overtaken people.

Will the unbelievers go through Judgment?

No.

The wicked that God will destroy is the carnal minds that are in Christians
and unbelievers alike. The reason people reject God is because of their
carnal minds they inherited from the 1st Adam. The difference between a
believer and an unbeliever is the believer has God on his side in the midst
of his troubles and the unbeliever has to struggle without God.

Where is the scripture attesting to this opinion about the carnal mind? We all struggle, believers and unbelievers alike, yet the unbeliever goes to his grave never receiving God's grace, their very bodies will to be cast into the Lake of Fire. Very sad.

Will God destroy the wicked... you bet He Will... He's going to set them free.

What a God... what a Plan!

Yes, He will destroy the wicked, but they will never be free. Only those who know Jesus Christ are free indeed! You are adding to scripture, and we all know what God says about that---be careful, mate:

Revelation 22:18-19
[sup]18[/sup] And I solemnly declare to everyone who hears the words of prophecy written in this book: If anyone adds anything to what is written here, God will add to that person the plagues described in this book. [sup]19[/sup] And if anyone removes any of the words from this book of prophecy, God will remove that person’s share in the tree of life and in the holy city that are described in this book.

 

[jiggyfly]

Matthew 5:44-45

“But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,​

45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.​

This says something much different than what you paraphrased, although to answer your question with scripture.
Romans 5:8

John 14:6
No one can come to the Father except through Him.
John 10:9
This verse says "if" not when.

Probably because I was paraphrasing from Luke Chapter 6 verses 35&36.
35 “Love your enemies! Do good to them. Lend to them without expecting to be repaid. Then your reward from heaven will be very great, and you will truly be acting as children of the Most High, for he is kind to those who are unthankful and wicked.36 You must be compassionate, just as your Father is compassionate.
Luke 6:35-36 (NLT)

35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. 36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Luke 6:35-36 (KJV)

35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. 36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.
Luke 6:35-36 (ESV)

35 `But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again, and your reward will be great, and ye shall be sons of the Highest, because He is kind unto the ungracious and evil; 36 be ye therefore merciful, as also your Father is merciful.
Luke 6:35-36 (YLT)

Read some of my other posts and you will see that I agree that everyone must come through Christ to be reconciled to Father.

You know that sure sounds pretty, and I hope for their sake (the wicked) you are correct. The issue I have is to get your view you have to read into scripture. To get my view you only have to read it. :mellow:

When I approach the scriptures, I read them like a child would. I accept what they say plainly. Of course I ask for guidance by the HolySpirit, but I approach the word like a child.
Matthew 19:14 Luke 18:16

If Jesus says some are going to hell, that is good enough for me. Who am I to try to outwit the Creator of all things?

Actually I think it is more like holding to endless torment of many in hell one must ignore hundreds of scriptures and misunderstand God and His character.

Here is one for instance. Romans 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Romans 5:18 (KJV)
Those who hold to endless torment want to read into this scripture that all doesn't really mean all humankind, but according to the sentence dynamics and subject here, the same all that the judgment of condemnation is the same all that the justification of life came upon. The only way to see it otherwise is to read into it something that doesn't exist or twist it to mean something different and change it to fit their endless torment religious paradigm.

Can't speak for others but I, myself never said no one goes to hell, but rather no one goes there forever with no escape, and I might add that hell is so misinterpreted and misrepresented. Many of the English bibles mistranslated scripture text by translating several different Greek words into the English word Hell. Much of it stems from falsehoods inspired by Jerome's corrupt Latin translation.
The conflict is apparent to those who will indeed read the scriptures without trying to change their meaning or the context. Endless torment simply does not fit with Father's character or the many (hundreds) scriptures which speak of God's plan to be All and in All.

 

[brightmorningstar]

The idea that God would punish is scriptural. The nature is scriptural but debatable. Humanism basically rejects the idea that God would let anyone die, its what the serpent said to Eve and caused all the trouble in the first place. God is love because He has made the way for all and wishes that none should perish. But to some simply making the way and wishing is not good enough.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

Hmm, where's the maybe option?

I've thought long and hard about this. Recently I started looking deeper into this subject. (but got carried off in another direction).

From what most of the Bible says, starting from the OT, those without God die. Those with God live. God told Adam and Eve if they eat from the tree of knowledge, they will die. Jesus said, those who have the Son have life, those who don't have the Son have not life.

The only place where eternal torment seems to be mentioned is Revelations. There seems to be a slight descrepency with the word, "Are", as in , "Where the beast and the false prophet are" it seems it should read, "Were" instead.

In our minds it only makes sense. We view God and everything about Him as eternal. We know God is eternal. We know God gives us eternal life. We look at the resurection and believe that those with Christ will have eternal life. So, it seems to stand to reason that those without will have eternal damnation. In that if we can live forever in Heaven, those in hell will also live forever.

Now, why does that make sense? Why would it be called the second death? Why would Jesus say, "Lose your soul?" Why would the other scriptures say, "Destroy your soul.."? What purpose would burning forever serve? Doesn't God say, he will create a new heaven and a new earth, the old has passed away?

Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by eternal fire. Why isnt that fire still burning in that spot? Seems, we associate Eternal, and Unquenchable fire in the same terms. They're not the same thing. Sin and Hell (death) will be cast into the lake of fire. God says sin will not exist when he creates a new heaven and a new earth. If they were burning in fire forever, there definately is sin and death still existing.

Why would we have to eat from a tree to have eternal life? (Yes, only those with Christ can eat of it.) What happens if you don't eat from that tree?

So, seems to me it's this. We have 2 ressurections. The first for salvation, the second for damnation. Those who's names aren't written in the book of life will be destroyed in the lake of fire. Weaping and gnashing of teeth are 2 different things denoting different peoples reactions. Some will wail and cry, and some will gnash (grit) their teeth in anger. It will be worse for some than for others. Those who knew yet turned away will feel worse.

I'm still looking, and collecting my thoughts. I'm sorry if this seemed more rambling.

 

[Lively Stone]

You are doing well in your search to learn the truth from the word, WhiteKnuckle.

 

[Shirley]

Hmm, where's the maybe option?

I've thought long and hard about this. Recently I started looking deeper into this subject. (but got carried off in another direction).

From what most of the Bible says, starting from the OT, those without God die. Those with God live. God told Adam and Eve if they eat from the tree of knowledge, they will die. Jesus said, those who have the Son have life, those who don't have the Son have not life.

The only place where eternal torment seems to be mentioned is Revelations. There seems to be a slight descrepency with the word, "Are", as in , "Where the beast and the false prophet are" it seems it should read, "Were" instead.

In our minds it only makes sense. We view God and everything about Him as eternal. We know God is eternal. We know God gives us eternal life. We look at the resurection and believe that those with Christ will have eternal life. So, it seems to stand to reason that those without will have eternal damnation. In that if we can live forever in Heaven, those in hell will also live forever.

Now, why does that make sense? Why would it be called the second death? Why would Jesus say, "Lose your soul?" Why would the other scriptures say, "Destroy your soul.."? What purpose would burning forever serve? Doesn't God say, he will create a new heaven and a new earth, the old has passed away?

Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by eternal fire. Why isnt that fire still burning in that spot? Seems, we associate Eternal, and Unquenchable fire in the same terms. They're not the same thing. Sin and Hell (death) will be cast into the lake of fire. God says sin will not exist when he creates a new heaven and a new earth. If they were burning in fire forever, there definately is sin and death still existing.

Why would we have to eat from a tree to have eternal life? (Yes, only those with Christ can eat of it.) What happens if you don't eat from that tree?

So, seems to me it's this. We have 2 ressurections. The first for salvation, the second for damnation. Those who's names aren't written in the book of life will be destroyed in the lake of fire. Weaping and gnashing of teeth are 2 different things denoting different peoples reactions. Some will wail and cry, and some will gnash (grit) their teeth in anger. It will be worse for some than for others. Those who knew yet turned away will feel worse.

I'm still looking, and collecting my thoughts. I'm sorry if this seemed more rambling.

I find this to be an excellent post!

 

[veteran]

One of the most difficult things to understand about the resurrection and Christ's Millennium reign is that it's to be a time of correcting upon many, and a time when many will have their spiritual eyes opened for the first time. No one will be able to deny Christ Jesus in that time, all will know Who He is and will see Him as He is, and that includes those of the "resurrection of damnation" doing that too, during that thousand year period.

We worship a Just GOD Who is not going to destroy any soul in the lake of fire until all eyes have been opened so each one can be held fully accountable for their choice.

This is how many of Israel that work against Christ and The Gospel will be saved in that time. Paul revealed in Rom.11 that God Himself blinded many of them. So how would GOD be Just in sending those into the lake of fire since He put blindness upon them so His Gospel could also go to the Gentiles? Apostle Paul well explained this, it's just that fleshy ideas of men get in the way of understanding it.

 

[Rach1370]

Does the notion of hell really need to be a dividing point between us?? Apart from perhaps spuring us on to spread the good news to as many as we can...shouldn't we be content to leave both the nature and level of judgement/punishment up to God? Trying to understand His justice is simply madness. God is not human, He doesn't operate under human laws or human perception of what is 'right' and 'good' and 'just'. He is God, He does not just have goodness and justness...He IS them. When we try and say that eternal punishment is wrong and unfair, it's very much like a bug telling us we're evil for disciplining our children. I don't claim to know what God's plan is, I recognise that the Bible speaks of both eternal damnation and darkness, as well as wanting to have all come to a saving repentance. I haven't a clue what 'eternal punishment' might entail, if it's actively burning alive forever, or if it's just the sentence of living forever in a world without God's continual common grace. That would be quite bad enough! The point is....its up to God, and because He's our loving Father, we should be happy to let it rest in His hands.

 

[jiggyfly]

Does the notion of hell really need to be a dividing point between us?? Apart from perhaps spuring us on to spread the good news to as many as we can...shouldn't we be content to leave both the nature and level of judgement/punishment up to God? Trying to understand His justice is simply madness. God is not human, He doesn't operate under human laws or human perception of what is 'right' and 'good' and 'just'. He is God, He does not just have goodness and justness...He IS them. When we try and say that eternal punishment is wrong and unfair, it's very much like a bug telling us we're evil for disciplining our children. I don't claim to know what God's plan is, I recognise that the Bible speaks of both eternal damnation and darkness, as well as wanting to have all come to a saving repentance. I haven't a clue what 'eternal punishment' might entail, if it's actively burning alive forever, or if it's just the sentence of living forever in a world without God's continual common grace. That would be quite bad enough! The point is....its up to God, and because He's our loving Father, we should be happy to let it rest in His hands.

35 “Love your enemies! Do good to them. Lend to them without expecting to be repaid. Then your reward from heaven will be very great, and you will truly be acting as children of the Most High, for he is kind to those who are unthankful and wicked.36 You must be compassionate, just as your Father is compassionate.
Luke 6:35-36 (NLT)


If it were true that God will endlessly torment His enemies in hell then in light of what Jesus said in Luke 6, if we want to be like our Father in heaven we should torment our enemies as well. Yet Jesus says love your enemies and then you will be acting like your Father in Heaven.

 

[justaname]

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
He will punish those who do not know God, and who don obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of Lord and and from the majesty of His power on the day He comes to be glorified in His holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed.


This is a pretty simple and plain read. This explains who will be punished and and how they will be punished.

Jiggyfly,
Those texts never came to mind. Thanks for posting the verses you were referencing. I can say I am not sure about everlasting torment, except in the case of the false prophet, antichrist, and devil, but everlasting destruction for those who do not know God and those who do not obey the gospel is verified by Paul. I can not say what that eternal destruction entails except that it is eternal.

Now as to answer your question again with the specific scripture you presented.
None is good except the Father who is in Heaven. By default that means all other things are evil. By having mercy on just one of us that makes that scripture true. Now do you think God may have shown mercy to just one person that didn't thank Him for it?

Now to be realistic, how much mercy has God shown that you don't even know about. God is Holy and man should have been destroyed long ago, all the way back to Adam. Are you a judge of God and His mercy, or better yet, are you able to judge His righteous judgement on the wicked?

 

[Lively Stone]

God doesn't torment anyone, nor will He. People don't seem to understand that it is our POSITION to God that dictates what our eternal destiny is. If we do not have the blood covering over our sin, then we cannot be in the presence of holy God. torment is the result of one's rejection of Christ. God doesn't DO it, nor does He desire it, because He loves people! People do it.

 

[jiggyfly]

God doesn't torment anyone, nor will He. People don't seem to understand that it is our POSITION to God that dictates what our eternal destiny is. If we do not have the blood covering over our sin, then we cannot be in the presence of holy God. torment is the result of one's rejection of Christ. God doesn't DO it, nor does He desire it, because He loves people! People do it.

I would love to see the scriptures that support what you are saying. Who decides my "POSITION"? Do we now reconcile ourselves to God? Here again the scriptures clearly state that Christ the Lamb of god took away the sins of the world. Seems to me that in your paradigm many people will be tormenting God forever because they refuse to let Him have what He wants.

19 For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ,20 and through him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of Christ’s blood on the cross.
Col 1:19-20 (NLT)

6 And now, just as you accepted Christ Jesus as your Lord, you must continue to follow him.7 Let your roots grow down into him, and let your lives be built on him. Then your faith will grow strong in the truth you were taught, and you will overflow with thankfulness.8 Don’t let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ.9 For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. 10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.11 When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision—the cutting away of your sinful nature. 12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead.13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins.14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross.15 In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross.16 So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths.17 For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality.18 Don’t let anyone condemn you by insisting on pious self-denial or the worship of angels, saying they have had visions about these things. Their sinful minds have made them proud,19 and they are not connected to Christ, the head of the body. For he holds the whole body together with its joints and ligaments, and it grows as God nourishes it.20 You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the spiritual powers of this world. So why do you keep on following the rules of the world, such as,21 “Don’t handle! Don’t taste! Don’t touch!”?22 Such rules are mere human teachings about things that deteriorate as we use them.23 These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, pious self-denial, and severe bodily discipline. But they provide no help in conquering a person’s evil desires.​

Col 2:6-23 (NLT)

It seems in your eyes that God can't save anyone without there help. Yet the scriptures say that we are helpless in this matter.

When we were utterly helpless, Christ came at just the right time and died for us sinners.
Romans 5:6 (NLT)

 

[thisistheendtimes]

This topic seems to be of interest only to 'THINKERS' (philosophists, like Pilate said "What is TRUTH"?). Of course, a genuine search for truth (truthquest) does require a person to allow themselves to 'think outside the box'/book (bible text). Believers have been indoctrinated to only believe as they were taught to believe what scripture is SUPPOSED TO MEAN (dictated by those who want our MONEY).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incident_at_Antioch

The phrase and concept "LAKE of fire" is from ancient Egyptian pagan worship. It is only used in the book of Revelations (the book also contains an ULTIMATUM THREAT all the way at THE END of the book, not a CAUTION warning). The "LAKE" concept was passed through to the N.T. by the "Brood of Vipers" children of hell at the Council of Jerusalem (Martin Luther wanted to discard the whole book).

Matthew 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees,.....a child of hell".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_of_fire

All who are truly saddened by the limits of what this world has to offer will long for deliverance from living a mere physical existence and will seek a 'spiritual' return ("restoration") to genuine "LIFE" (instead of "existence"). This goal requires being reconnected with the creator and knowing the name of His "purifier", but also caring about HIS WILL instead of NEEDING COMMANDS.

For now, the angels minister to us. They "separate" and ensure the penalty of punishment, but they don't do the judging,....our conscience judges us (whether we realize it or not).

Matthew 13:42

"throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth".

The sons of the EARTHLY kingdom (Jews, Zealots, Pharisees, Scribes,....children of hell) will forever/eternally experience/"suffer" the "hell of fire" from now on (for all eternity, this is the age of ETERNITY) just as all hypocrites do.

Matthew 22:13 The King said "there men will weep and gnash their teeth".

Matthew 24:51 "and will punish him, and put him with the hypocrites".

Jesus came in the "fulness of time" (completion/end of "time"). He ended the age of time and ushered in the age of eternity/forever. Those who don't have a "spirit" (character/attitude) that is compatible with God's Spirit will "weep" (their pitiful existence will be haunted daily/constantly by their conscience) and they will always be stressed out nervous wrecks ("gnash their teeth").....and this will continue "forever" while they exist on this earth, after that, "to dust you shall return, but to the sincere "eternal LIFE".

"the age to come, eternal life".........John 14:6 "I am THE WAY.....THE TRUTH.....and THE LIFE".

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=and+in+the+age+to+come+eternal+life&t=RSV&sf=5

They will "weep and gnash their teeth" because...Obadiah 1:15 "For the day of the LORD is near......it shall be done to you, your deeds shall return on your own head".

Atheists (genuine and SINCERE atheists) don't realize it, but they are "resting" on the ETERNAL "day" (The LORD'S day,...."sabbath" is ETERNAL/forever).

Jesus spoke of a "hell of fire...
[url="http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=fire+of+hell&t=RSV&sf=5"]http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=fire+of+hell&t=RSV&sf=5

Because the "Word of God" hung on the cross and gave us The Father's Spirit to learn from.....

[url="http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=glorified+the+word+of+God&t=RSV&sf=5"]http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=glorified+the+word+of+God&t=RSV&sf=5

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=in+this+age+and+the+age+to+come&t=RSV&sf=5

John 7:39 "for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified".

"a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life".

...our lives will be blessed during this "time" (our 'present part' of "ETERNITY" is not part of the "AGE" of "time", but THE AGE of eternity,....we have "LIFE", no longer mere "existence"...."THE "life" eternal (John 14:6).

All verses are from the RSV.

 

[Lively Stone]

I would love to see the scriptures that support what you are saying. Who decides my "POSITION"? Do we now reconcile ourselves to God? Here again the scriptures clearly state that Christ the Lamb of god took away the sins of the world. Seems to me that in your paradigm many people will be tormenting God forever because they refuse to let Him have what He wants.

19 For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ,20 and through him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of Christ’s blood on the cross.
Col 1:19-20 (NLT)

6 And now, just as you accepted Christ Jesus as your Lord, you must continue to follow him.7 Let your roots grow down into him, and let your lives be built on him. Then your faith will grow strong in the truth you were taught, and you will overflow with thankfulness.8 Don’t let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ.9 For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. 10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.11 When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision—the cutting away of your sinful nature. 12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead.13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins.14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross.15 In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross.16 So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths.17 For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality.18 Don’t let anyone condemn you by insisting on pious self-denial or the worship of angels, saying they have had visions about these things. Their sinful minds have made them proud,19 and they are not connected to Christ, the head of the body. For he holds the whole body together with its joints and ligaments, and it grows as God nourishes it.20 You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the spiritual powers of this world. So why do you keep on following the rules of the world, such as,21 “Don’t handle! Don’t taste! Don’t touch!”?22 Such rules are mere human teachings about things that deteriorate as we use them.23 These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, pious self-denial, and severe bodily discipline. But they provide no help in conquering a person’s evil desires.​

Col 2:6-23 (NLT)

It seems in your eyes that God can't save anyone without there help. Yet the scriptures say that we are helpless in this matter.

When we were utterly helpless, Christ came at just the right time and died for us sinners.
Romans 5:6 (NLT)

It appears you misapprehend what 'reconciled' means, and also that it is by faith we are saved by God's grace. No faith in Jesus, no life. That is the Gospel's message. Universalists present a false Gospel that those who are unbelievers, the unregenerate, and also the reprobate and apostate will eventually be saved, despite their choice to follow Satan. Some believe that these folk will even suffer condemnation, but then they add to the words of the Book by stating that condemnation, or the Lake of Fire is a temporary punishment, that they will serve their time and get out. Where is that in scripture??

 

[jiggyfly]

It appears you misapprehend what 'reconciled' means, and also that it is by faith we are saved by God's grace. No faith in Jesus, no life. That is the Gospel's message. Universalists present a false Gospel that those who are unbelievers, the unregenerate, and also the reprobate and apostate will eventually be saved, despite their choice to follow Satan. Some believe that these folk will even suffer condemnation, but then they add to the words of the Book by stating that condemnation, or the Lake of Fire is a temporary punishment, that they will serve their time and get out. Where is that in scripture??

Not sure why you fail so many times to produce scripture that supports your opinions here but you should study the scriptures some so you will be able to give scriptural support when asked.

 

[Lively Stone]

Not sure why you fail so many times to produce scripture that supports your opinions here but you should study the scriptures some so you will be able to give scriptural support when asked.

Been there, done that.

So, where is the scripture that says that damnation is temporary that the Lake of Fire is merely a refining process? Can you answer that question?


.

 

[jiggyfly]

Been there, done that.

So, where is the scripture that says that damnation is temporary that the Lake of Fire is merely a refining process? Can you answer that question?


.

You were asked first, you reply with the proper scriptures that support your post earlier and then I will reply with the scriptures that support temporary correction.

 

[Lively Stone]

Our Position in Christ

1. Our position in Christ refers to all that is involved in the believers' spiritual union with Christ; our new position "in Christ" or "in Him" which occurs at salvation for ALL believers in the Church Age.​

2. Our New Position constitutes a new beginning for the believer, neutralizing the effects of our previous position in Adam. 1 Cor.15:22​

a. Our position in Adam is the result of the imputation of Adam's original sin [AOS] to the indwelling sin nature resulting in spiritual death; one is born physically alive but spiritually dead.​

b. Position in Christ replaces spiritual death with eternal life and guarantees us a future resurrection.​

Eternal Life replaces death - Rom. 6:23;
Resurrection is guaranteed - 1 Cor.15:51-52; 1 Ths. 4:13-16

3. Our New Position is totally the work of God. 1 Cor. 1:30

4. Our New Position begins with the baptism of the Holy Spirit, [BHS], which is one of the 5 things that God the Holy Spirit [G/HS] does for every believer in the church age at SALVATION.​

a. Regeneration - [new birth] Jn 3:1-16; Titus 3:5 (done by G/HS for every believer from Adam to the end of millennium)​

b. BHS - 1 Cor 12:13 (entrance into a royal relationship)
c. Sealing - 2 Cor 1:22; Eph 4:30; 1:13,14
d. Indwelling - Rom 8:9; 1 Cor 3:16; 6:19,20; Gal 3:2; 4:6;

e. Giving of a Spiritual gift - 1 Cor 12:11 (gifts are designed to provide for the local church's function so that we can fulfill our responsibility as believers)​

5. Our New position qualifies us as believers to live with God forever; If we are to live with God forever we must:​

a. have forgiveness for all sins - accomplished by faith in His work on the cross bearing our sins - being judged on behalf of us. 1 Pet 2:24; 3:18​

b. be as righteous as God - accomplished through the imputation of +R, God's righteousness which is credited to us at salvation and therefore God can say JUSTIFIED! 2 Cor 5:21​

c. have the same life as God - eternal life - also imparted at salvation to the Believer. 1 Jn 5:11,12; as a result of regeneration.​

6. The carnal, negative, or rebellious believer as well as the believer who is in fellowship share equally in their position in Christ. 1 Cor. 1:2,30 cf. 3:1-3​

- The sin nature's rulership is not an issue as to one's position;​

- It has everything to do with our day to day fellowship with Christ.​

7. Our new position protects us as believers from eternal judgment. Rom 8:1​

8. Our new position produces a new creature in Christ. 2 Cor 5:17​

- what grace accomplishes at SALVATION is based on who and what Christ is [it is the change of position that provides the foundation, the basis for all changes in life.]
- All bona fide changes in time, in the life of the believer are the result of a response to the Word of God, BD.
- As the Norms and Standards [N&S] of the conscience are being renewed and applied, one is said to be growing in grace.
- This is a transformation not a reformation.

9. Our new position guarantees the eternal security of the believer. Rom 8:38-39

10. Positional truth exists in two categories:​

a. Retroactive positional truth: [RAPT] Rom. 6:3-8; Col. 2:12,​

1) The believer is identified with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection, which guarantees that we share in His victory on the cross.​

2) This results in the rejection of human good as a basis for salvation. Titus 3:5​

3) It becomes the basis for victory in the Christian life, the application of positional truth to experience because the SIN NATURE has been dealt with by the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross. Rom 6:6​

Point is that the sin nature no longer has to rule you; you have died to the sin nature, [6:2] and are freed from it [6:7].​

b. Current positional truth: [CPT] Col. 3:1-4; Eph 2:4-6

1) This speaks of the believer being identified with Christ at the right hand of Father in the heavenlies.​

11. On the basis of this new position, the believer shares certain things which Christ possesses:​

(CPT - is the present reality for each believer)
a. The life of Christ, eternal life; 1 Jn 5:11-12; Jn 20:31
b. The righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ; 2 Cor 5:21
c. The election of Christ; Eph 1:4
d. The destiny of Christ; Eph 1:5
e. The Sonship of Christ; Rom. 8:16-17; Gal. 3:26
f. The heirship of Christ; Rom. 8:16-17; 1 Pet. 1:4-5
g. The priesthood of Christ; Heb. 10:10-14; 1 Pet. 2:5-9
h. The eternal kingdom of Christ [eternity]; 2 Pet 1:11

12. Summary observations related to our position in Christ:

a. It is not an experience nor is it associated with emotion or ecstatics.​

b. It is not progressive - it can not be improved upon in time or in eternity.​

c. It is not related to human merit or human good (an implication of retroactive positional truth, being identified with Christ).​

d. Positional truth is eternal therefore will last forever and cannot be changed by God, Angels, or man's actions.​

e. Positional truth is obtained in a second, in a moment of time, accomplished by the BHS at the point of faith in Christ.​

My thanks to this source:​

http://www.ironrange...20truth_05.html​

Scripture itself refutes damnation as remedial:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
7 And God will provide rest for you who are being persecuted and also for us when the Lord Jesus appears from heaven. He will come with his mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire, bringing judgment on those who don’t know God and on those who refuse to obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with eternal destruction, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power.

Matthew 25:46
46 “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”

Matthew 18:8
So if your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one hand or one foot than to be thrown into eternal fire with both of your hands and feet.

 

[thisistheendtimes]

My name is "thisistheendtimes", whoever "been there done that" is, "been there done that" has nothing to do with this forum. I realize that you don't want to agree with me because you don't respect other people as being SOVEREIGN (being THEIR OWN PERSON). This will come back to you (it's called the 'mirror principle'...God built "poetic justice" into EVERYTHING...the "hell of fire").

How do you expect to ever realize the objective truth about God if you refuse to respect the sovereignty of each human being?

Thank you jiggyfly and Livelystone for the invitation/requirement to answer according to scripture text, but I don't confine my thoughts to THE BOOK, I am an independent thinker (I let my brain operate without the rules of THE BOOK).

When I made the comment that "This topic seems to be of interest only to 'THINKERS' ", apparently I was wrong. You are still PRISONERS OF THE BOOK and restrict your thinking to THE BOOK. Jesus only freed us from the law of sin and death, it's up to us to free our minds from 'religiosity'. Being intent on only knowing what is in the book is called "partisanship" (see how God feels about "partisanship", look it up). Because of that obsessive intent, you have become blinded to the truth so that all that I wrote has been meaningless to you.

What historians call "The Incident at Antioch" happened about 17 years after the crucifixion. Acts 11:26... "and in Antioch, the disciples were first called Christians" (around 50 A.D. the Jewish 'Christ devotees' wanted to still follow Mosaic law).

Acts 9:2 (who SAUL persecuted) "that if he found any belonging to THE WAY, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem".

Acts 19:9 "but when some were stubborn and disbelieved, speaking evil of THE WAY before the congregation". ....(the word "christianity" is not in scripture....NOT a divinely inspired word).

Act 24:22 "But Felix, having a rather accurate knowledge of THE WAY". John 14:6 "I am THE WAY...".

So you see, if you could stop confining yourself to BOOK PRISON, you would be able to find what I wrote as being MEANINGFUL. Discussion/debate about the "lake of fire" is useless because it is a pagan concept.

God's true intentions in scripture are TWOFOLD. 1) to inform us who the "lamb"/"purifier" is (Hebrews 10:2)....AND.... 2) to explain to us how to be more fully human (a BETTER HUMAN BEING).....a SPIRIT/DIVINE human being that is truly "in His image" like Adam before the fall in Eden. .....the reason you have never realized this truth is that you really don't WANT the OBJECTIVE truth, you are simply satisfied having a SUBJECTIVE truth (God tried to point this out to us when He had Pilate say "What is TRUTH?" (John 18:38), but few people want to realize why God ensured that this verse be included in scripture. "because they refused to love the truth AND SO BE SAVED" (2 Thessalonians chapter 2).

The strong delusion has always been in effect (it is NOT a future event, it is for PEOPLE OF THE BOOK....instead of PEOPLE OF GOD). If you can't see how "HYPOCRITES" have formed their own penalty ("hell of fire"....the "mirror" principle, James 1:23), then you simply don't understand the human life experience (human nature). "he is like a man who observes his natural face in a mirror".

God doesn't want to be our "master" (He wants to be "Abba Father" to each one of us so that we can be a "SON of the most hign"). He doesn't want us to need to be commanded in order that that "goodness" may happen, He wants to be "LOVERS OF GOODNESS" and to be independent thinkers that are SOVEREIGN ("MASTERS").

Titus 1:8 "lovers of goodness, master of himself".