The Lake of Fire
- Thread starter justaname
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
They receive aionion punishment or punishment in the ages to come. Our punishment isn't
the same as God's punishment. We have no real reason to punish other than giving a person
no hope but God punishes for the purpose of correction.
Logabe
If there is no more sacrifice for a sin.... they are never redeemed, right?
If they are eternal, their punishment therefore must be eternal.
If they are not eternal but get immortality from the tree of life or salvation or whatever, then their punishment can have an end.
<shrug>
Peace on us all,
Ted
If they are eternal, their punishment therefore must be eternal.
If they are not eternal but get immortality from the tree of life or salvation or whatever, then their punishment can have an end.
<shrug>
Peace on us all,
Ted
But if they reject that sacrifice, there is no sacrifice for their sins.
They are removed and kept away from the congregation of God.
- Mar 14, 2011
- 2,348
- 149
- 63
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
2 Thessalonians 1:9
Paul speaks of everlasting destruction along with separation. Are these maybe destined for eternal reincarnation?
Revelation 20:10
John speaks of eternal torment for the beast, false prophet, and the devil.
Revelation 20:14-15
Those not written in the book of life are cast in also, along with hell (hades) and death.
Paul speaks of everlasting destruction along with separation. Are these maybe destined for eternal reincarnation?
Revelation 20:10
John speaks of eternal torment for the beast, false prophet, and the devil.
Revelation 20:14-15
Those not written in the book of life are cast in also, along with hell (hades) and death.
The punishment of the Lake of Fire, the second death has no end. There is nothing in scripture whatsoever that declares it as correction, nor temporary, but eternal damnation.
Matthew 25:24-46
[sup]34[/sup] “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. [sup]35[/sup] For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. [sup]36[/sup] I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’
[sup]37[/sup] “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? [sup]38[/sup] Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? [sup]39[/sup] When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
[sup]40[/sup] “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’
[sup]41[/sup] “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. [sup]42[/sup] For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. [sup]43[/sup] I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’
[sup]44[/sup] “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’
[sup]45[/sup] “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’
[sup]46[/sup] “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:24-46
[sup]34[/sup] “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. [sup]35[/sup] For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. [sup]36[/sup] I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’
[sup]37[/sup] “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? [sup]38[/sup] Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? [sup]39[/sup] When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
[sup]40[/sup] “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’
[sup]41[/sup] “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. [sup]42[/sup] For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. [sup]43[/sup] I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’
[sup]44[/sup] “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’
[sup]45[/sup] “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’
[sup]46[/sup] “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”
The wicked condemned to the "lake of fire" suffer eternal punishment, eternal in the sense that they are 'gone'... forever.
Per Rev.14, it's the 'smoke' of their torment that rises forever and forever.
God said in His new heavens and a new earth, the former things are not remembered (Isa.65; Rev.21). He said He is going to create Jerusalem and her people a joy, which is in the sense of Paul's "new creature" in Christ idea.
The COMPLETE "new creature" state is still future; it is only fulfilled spiritually today, as our hope for it in FULL is about waiting for the redemption of our bodies by Christ Jesus at His coming, putting off this body of sin we have today.
So how would we be made a 'joy' in God's future new heavens and a new earth if all we've got to do is look over at a perpetual burning pit where the wicked are tormented and screaming for God's Eternity?
Even when Judah followed after Baalism in sacrificing their children in the fire, God said such a thought never even entered into His Mind...
Jer 19:5
5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into My mind:
(KJV)
The Psalms reveals the wicked will literally perish, and be no more. Once they are gone, it's going to be as if they had never existed.
Per Rev.14, it's the 'smoke' of their torment that rises forever and forever.
God said in His new heavens and a new earth, the former things are not remembered (Isa.65; Rev.21). He said He is going to create Jerusalem and her people a joy, which is in the sense of Paul's "new creature" in Christ idea.
The COMPLETE "new creature" state is still future; it is only fulfilled spiritually today, as our hope for it in FULL is about waiting for the redemption of our bodies by Christ Jesus at His coming, putting off this body of sin we have today.
So how would we be made a 'joy' in God's future new heavens and a new earth if all we've got to do is look over at a perpetual burning pit where the wicked are tormented and screaming for God's Eternity?
Even when Judah followed after Baalism in sacrificing their children in the fire, God said such a thought never even entered into His Mind...
Jer 19:5
5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into My mind:
(KJV)
The Psalms reveals the wicked will literally perish, and be no more. Once they are gone, it's going to be as if they had never existed.
God spoke to Moses and gave Israel a perfect law by which we might know
His mind and how to establish a perfect system of law. For this reason I have
been amazed when well-meaning Christians fear the divine law as if it came
from a God of Vengeance. They run from such a God and draw near to Jesus,
the God of Love, not knowing that Jesus was the Law-giver who appeared to
Moses while Jesus was in His pre-incarnate state.
Such a dualistic mindset makes the Old Covenant (“Testament”) an opposite
of the New Covenant and tends to create two opposing Gods, each with a
different purpose and character. No, the Bible is a single Book and must be
viewed as a progressive revelation of the Kingdom of God , with each
revelation building upon the previous foundations.
The strangest of all ideas is that the divine law is somehow more to be
feared than the New Covenant God who is thought to impose torture
upon sinners. In the divine law, stealing one dollar brings divine justice
that says I must return two dollars to my victim (Ex. 22:4). The Church,
however, largely discarded the law and then substituted its own ideas of
deterrence, telling us that stealing even one dollar is punishable by never-
ending torture in hell.
That is not divine justice as defined in the law. That is only purposeless
punishment imposed by carnally-minded men who claim to know better
than God the true meaning of justice. Their dualistic philosophy leaves
the universe eternally with heaven and hell, light and darkness, all
coexisting perpetually with no thought to restoration or reconciliation.
Such an end separates evil from good, but never reconciles creation, as
the Scriptures teach.
When Paul says in Col. 1:16-20 that “the all" of creation is "the all" that
was reconciled in Christ, this can only occur if divine justice is good.
Justice is only good if it has a good purpose and is imposed in Love.
Anything short of the reconciliation of all creation falls short of Paul's
expectations of God. Hence, divine justice is eonian, not everlasting,
and it restores balance to the divine order, rather than imposing mere
torture.
This is the God of the Bible.
Logabe
You just contradicted yourself. How can the 'smoke' of their torment rise forever and forever if they are gone forever?
On the contrary, just because they reject Christ's sacrifice doesn't make His sacrifice ineffective. John the baptist said that Jesus was the Lamb of god that took away the sins of the world. Many struggle with God's redemptive work through Christ at the cross, but God is patient and will succeed in reconciling all things to Himself through His Son the Christ, just as the scriptures declare.
Even from the day I [am] He, And there is no deliverer from My hand, I work, and who doth turn it back? Isaiah 43:13
It is eternally capable of removing sin, but it is only effective when applied through faith. The Hebrews in Egpyt through faith had to apply lamb's blood to their doorposts in order for their firstborns to be spared. The firstborn's of those who didn't exercise faith in that grace were destroyed. That is a shadow of the ultimate reality.
What is dualistic about the scriptural truth I just presented? It is error to extrapolate that God imposes torture on sinners. Sinners, by their mere standing with God as unrighteous have no right to be called sons of God and will remain outside of the Kingdom of God forever.
John 1:12
But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God.
Only to those who believe and accept Him has anyone been given sonship to God. Universalism, which you are promoting, is a lie of the devil. Now, that is a dualism that contradicts God Himself.
.
18 Yes, Adam’s one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ’s one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone.19 Because one person disobeyed God, many became sinners. But because one other person obeyed God, many will be made righteous.
Romans 5:18-19 (NLT)
For the Scriptures say,
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bend to me, and every tongue will confess and give praise to God.
Romans 14:11 (NLT)
9 God has now revealed to us his mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill his own good pleasure.10 And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ—everything in heaven and on earth.
Eph 1:9-10 (NLT)
9 Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above all other names,10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Phil 2:9-11 (NLT)
19 For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ,20 and through him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of Christ’s blood on the cross.
Col 1:19-20 (NLT)
10 This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.
1 Tim 4:10 (NLT)
Romans 5:18-19 (NLT)
For the Scriptures say,
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bend to me, and every tongue will confess and give praise to God.
Romans 14:11 (NLT)
9 God has now revealed to us his mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill his own good pleasure.10 And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ—everything in heaven and on earth.
Eph 1:9-10 (NLT)
9 Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above all other names,10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Phil 2:9-11 (NLT)
19 For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ,20 and through him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of Christ’s blood on the cross.
Col 1:19-20 (NLT)
10 This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.
1 Tim 4:10 (NLT)
Romans 14:11 has Paul stating that all believers will stand before the Lord and declare Him King and Lord of all, to the glory and praise of God Almighty---taken from Isaiah 45:23.
Isaiah 45:22-25
“Look to Me, and be saved,
All you ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.
[sup]23 [/sup]I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,
And shall not return,
That to Me every knee shall bow,
Every tongue shall take an oath.
[sup]24 [/sup]He shall say,
‘Surely in the Lord I have righteousness and strength.
To Him men shall come,
And all shall be ashamed
Who are incensed against Him.
[sup]25 [/sup]In the Lord all the descendants of Israel
Shall be justified, and shall glory.’”
All men will bow and kneel before the Most Holy God, but not every man will be doing so as an overcomer, but as a vanquished foe. there is no getting around the fact that many more people will miss the kingdom of heaven than see it. Jesus doesn't mince His words about that...
Matthew 7:13-14
[sup]13[/sup] “You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. [sup]14[/sup] But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.
Luke 13:23-30
[sup]23[/sup] Someone asked him, “Lord, will only a few be saved?”
He replied, [sup]24[/sup] “Work hard to enter the narrow door to God’s Kingdom, for many will try to enter but will fail. [sup]25[/sup] When the master of the house has locked the door, it will be too late. You will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Lord, open the door for us!’ But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’ [sup]26[/sup] Then you will say, ‘But we ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’ [sup]27[/sup] And he will reply, ‘I tell you, I don’t know you or where you come from. Get away from me, all you who do evil.’
[sup]28[/sup] “There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, for you will see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the Kingdom of God, but you will be thrown out. [sup]29[/sup] And people will come from all over the world—from east and west, north and south—to take their places in the Kingdom of God. [sup]30[/sup] And note this: Some who seem least important now will be the greatest then, and some who are the greatest now will be least important then.”
Isaiah 45:22-25
“Look to Me, and be saved,
All you ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.
[sup]23 [/sup]I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,
And shall not return,
That to Me every knee shall bow,
Every tongue shall take an oath.
[sup]24 [/sup]He shall say,
‘Surely in the Lord I have righteousness and strength.
To Him men shall come,
And all shall be ashamed
Who are incensed against Him.
[sup]25 [/sup]In the Lord all the descendants of Israel
Shall be justified, and shall glory.’”
All men will bow and kneel before the Most Holy God, but not every man will be doing so as an overcomer, but as a vanquished foe. there is no getting around the fact that many more people will miss the kingdom of heaven than see it. Jesus doesn't mince His words about that...
Matthew 7:13-14
[sup]13[/sup] “You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. [sup]14[/sup] But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.
Luke 13:23-30
[sup]23[/sup] Someone asked him, “Lord, will only a few be saved?”
He replied, [sup]24[/sup] “Work hard to enter the narrow door to God’s Kingdom, for many will try to enter but will fail. [sup]25[/sup] When the master of the house has locked the door, it will be too late. You will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Lord, open the door for us!’ But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’ [sup]26[/sup] Then you will say, ‘But we ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’ [sup]27[/sup] And he will reply, ‘I tell you, I don’t know you or where you come from. Get away from me, all you who do evil.’
[sup]28[/sup] “There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, for you will see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the Kingdom of God, but you will be thrown out. [sup]29[/sup] And people will come from all over the world—from east and west, north and south—to take their places in the Kingdom of God. [sup]30[/sup] And note this: Some who seem least important now will be the greatest then, and some who are the greatest now will be least important then.”
The way you interpret that scripture Lively Stone... sounds like you and a
couple more will enter the Kingdom of God. Everyone else will live in a sea
of TORMENT for eternity. Wow, God really took some time to figure out His
Plan.
Knowing all things from the beginning... what's the point... I could have
come up with that kind of plan. If that's the Plan of God I am very
disapointed and I want my money back. We're talking about a God that
placed us here and then His plan was to destroy 99% of His Creation. Come
on, you've got to be kidding me, right?
Brother, that scripture deals with the Overcomers. God's first harvest will
be calling the Barley Company which will be raised in the 1st Resurrection
Rev. 20:4-6. That is all the ones that allowed God to change their way of
thinking by putting on the Mind of Christ. They Overcame by the Blood of
the Lamb and they qualified to be a king and a priest by their Faith.
The second harvest God will be dealing with the wheat. That is the ones that
didn't Overcome in there allotted time upon this earth but they still loved
Jesus so they will be saved by FIRE @ the Great White Throne 1st Corth. 3:
13-15. They will receive their immortal bodies but they will lose the 1st
Resurrection because they wanted to build their own foundation which
disqualified them to be raised in the Better Resurrection Heb. 11:35.
The third and final harvest will be dealing with the grapes. Who are these
people? That will be the unbelievers and yes God Loves them too and He has
a plan to save them also Romans 8:21.
Now that's the Plan of God! God will leave the 99 and go get the ONE.
Logabe
If you are disappointed in the truth, I cannot help that. I am ecstatic about the truth, that God has made it known to me that He loves me and that He came in the flesh and laid down His own life for me so that when I place my faith and trust in Him, repenting of my sin, I will become His child and will receive my reward of an eternal home with Him. My sin is wiped away. Those who reject Him will retain their sin and are not His sons and daughters, but the sons and daughters of the devil.
1 John 3:1-10
[sup]1[/sup] See how very much our Father loves us, for he calls us his children, and that is what we are! But the people who belong to this world don’t recognize that we are God’s children because they don’t know him. [sup]2[/sup] Dear friends, we are already God’s children, but he has not yet shown us what we will be like when Christ appears. But we do know that we will be like him, for we will see him as he really is. [sup]3[/sup] And all who have this eager expectation will keep themselves pure, just as he is pure.
[sup]4[/sup] Everyone who sins is breaking God’s law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God. [sup]5[/sup] And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, and there is no sin in him. [sup]6[/sup] Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin. But anyone who keeps on sinning does not know him or understand who he is.
[sup]7[/sup] Dear children, don’t let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous. [sup]8[/sup] But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. [sup]9[/sup] Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God. [sup]10[/sup] So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to God.
1 John 3:1-10
[sup]1[/sup] See how very much our Father loves us, for he calls us his children, and that is what we are! But the people who belong to this world don’t recognize that we are God’s children because they don’t know him. [sup]2[/sup] Dear friends, we are already God’s children, but he has not yet shown us what we will be like when Christ appears. But we do know that we will be like him, for we will see him as he really is. [sup]3[/sup] And all who have this eager expectation will keep themselves pure, just as he is pure.
[sup]4[/sup] Everyone who sins is breaking God’s law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God. [sup]5[/sup] And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, and there is no sin in him. [sup]6[/sup] Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin. But anyone who keeps on sinning does not know him or understand who he is.
[sup]7[/sup] Dear children, don’t let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous. [sup]8[/sup] But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. [sup]9[/sup] Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God. [sup]10[/sup] So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to God.
You misunderstand what the scriptures declare and add your own assumptions to their meaning. You confuse the ages and dispensations of God's redemptive plan. Paul said God reconciled all things to Himself through Christ at the cross, he said it very clearly yet you want to ignore it. Why? Do you find the fact that God loves His enemies appalling ? Why does the reconciliation of everyone upset you so? Do you think that you deserve more than those who are still resisting God? Have you read about Jonah and how he was upset with God for forgiving Nineveh or better how about the prodigal's brother? Maybe you should ask God to reveal the conflict between your religious paradigm and His heart.
I understand the scriptures about this subject very well, thanks. The universalism message chooses to ignore all passages referring to the fact that many will be lost due to unbelief. It is the loss of billions that upsets me, which spurs me on to preach and teach the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ---believe in Him and never perish but LIVE.
My paradigm is set upon the Rock of Jesus Christ and His word.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.
What sect of universalism are you referring to LS?
You say that it is a fact that billions will be lost, what scriptures do you base this on? Didn't Jesus say that He came to save the lost? Do you think that Jesus failed to do what He says He came to do? I posted some scriptures that clearly speak of God reconciling all things to Himself through His Son, yet you ignore it and say that universalism chooses to ignore scripture. Evidence would indicate that you have it wrong and that it is your belief that billions will remain lost that ignores an enormous amount of scripture.
Do you believe in unending torment or annihilation LS?
Similar threads
