What does it mean to be born again?

[marks]

Hebrews is speaking first to the Jews (then to the Gentiles). So yes in that case the unbelieving spoken of in those verses in Hebrews were God's people. But this is not always the case in scripture and that is the point I was making.

The Chosen Nation of Israel, and, the body of Christ, are not the same of course.

Much love!

 

[Waiting on him]

No contradiction

The patriarchs died looking by faith at the distant horizon, looking forward to the day when their heavenly promises would go from faith to sight. Dear believer, you need consider the lives of these great patriarchs "so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises." (Heb 6:12+)

Note that beginning in Hebrews 11:13 and going through verse 16 the writer takes a break and instead of giving examples of saints who expressed faith, he comments on the nature of the faith that he has been illustrating in this individuals. Notice that one could go from Hebrews 11:12 to Hebrews 11:17 without skipping a beat.

As Swindoll says "At this point, the writer of Hebrews sets aside the palette of paints he had been using to fill his canvas with examples of faith. He steps back, as it were, gestures at the procession of personalities he’s been painting, and makes a sweeping statement: “All these,” he says, “died in faith, without receiving the promises”. Wait . . . didn’t Abraham make it to the Promised Land? Didn’t Sarah have her promised child, Isaac? Yes, but what they experienced in this life was merely a foretaste, a shadow of things to come. Abraham didn’t receive the full promise, just a down payment. Abraham and Sarah had only one child—the promise was for descendants “innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore” (11:12). The land in which he sojourned was indeed the Promised Land, but he, Sarah, Isaac, and all their household lived there as “strangers and exiles on the earth” (11:13; cf. 1 Pet. 2:11). (Swindoll's Living Insights New Testament Commentary – Hebrews)

J.

This is well received, Paul said they those first century Christian Jews were the children of promise, and they did receive. I’m beginning to see the promise all along wasn’t a geographical conquest yet it was the promise of God in them. I believe they were the temple/land?

 

[Waiting on him]

No contradiction

The patriarchs died looking by faith at the distant horizon, looking forward to the day when their heavenly promises would go from faith to sight. Dear believer, you need consider the lives of these great patriarchs "so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises." (Heb 6:12+)

Note that beginning in Hebrews 11:13 and going through verse 16 the writer takes a break and instead of giving examples of saints who expressed faith, he comments on the nature of the faith that he has been illustrating in this individuals. Notice that one could go from Hebrews 11:12 to Hebrews 11:17 without skipping a beat.

As Swindoll says "At this point, the writer of Hebrews sets aside the palette of paints he had been using to fill his canvas with examples of faith. He steps back, as it were, gestures at the procession of personalities he’s been painting, and makes a sweeping statement: “All these,” he says, “died in faith, without receiving the promises”. Wait . . . didn’t Abraham make it to the Promised Land? Didn’t Sarah have her promised child, Isaac? Yes, but what they experienced in this life was merely a foretaste, a shadow of things to come. Abraham didn’t receive the full promise, just a down payment. Abraham and Sarah had only one child—the promise was for descendants “innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore” (11:12). The land in which he sojourned was indeed the Promised Land, but he, Sarah, Isaac, and all their household lived there as “strangers and exiles on the earth” (11:13; cf. 1 Pet. 2:11). (Swindoll's Living Insights New Testament Commentary – Hebrews)

J.

Acts 7:47-50 KJV
[47] But Solomon built him an house. [48] Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, [49] Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? [50] Hath not my hand made all these things?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You speak YOUR TRUTH.

Oh…there’s that new age thingy again…
A man beats his wife. Her truth, and the truth of a good portion of onlookers, is that he is wrong to do it. HIS truth, and the truth of a good portion of his friends, is that she brought it upon herself.

Now what? The man speaks HIS truth regarding it. Except…it’s NOT truth.
So the phrase is bad. I think it is.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

This is well received, Paul said they those first century Christian Jews were the children of promise, and they did receive. I’m beginning to see the promise all along wasn’t a geographical conquest yet it was the promise of God in them. I believe they were the temple/land?

Tear down this temple and in three days I will raise it up.

 

[marks]

So you really think Gods children who were adopted by him will experience Gods wrath?

wow

1 Thessalonians 5:8-10 KJV
8) But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9) For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10) Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

We need to understand what it really means to be God's child, and to be forgiven. Fear of condemnation isn't faith in Jesus Christ.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

Romans 6:3-11 KJV
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

There is a new reality for those who are baptized into Christ. But if we don't believe it, we don't walk in it. Though you say that the Christian must crucify the outer man, this passage teaches that if we've been baptized into Christ, that we've been crucified with Him. This means we are even now free from sin.

Do you believe this is true?

Much love!

I saw the thread you started...and I know you want to reconcile your life to the scriptures. And that's not a bad thing in itself. The problem lies when we want to justify ourselves by a reading of the bible.

What is Romans 6 about? It's about being the people of God on the New Covenant scale. Our OLD MAN (who we used to be) is done away with ...forever. Yes. All things are made new. We are no longer that person. On this I think we agree.

But one of the new things can very be the NEW religious outer man we take as a covering up for our continued lack of power over sin. Paul describes this realization in Romans 7. But he was honest and could NOT justify himself. Instead, He cried out to God for help...as we should, also. We, on the other hand can take on a NEW religious perspective that makes us worse than the Pharisees of old...by claiming for ourselves not only a personal righteousness...but the righteousness of God Himself. That should cause us to fear and tremble. There is wrath to come for this.

Reckoning something like being dead and experiencing death itself is very different indeed.

For there to no longer be any condemnation we need to move into Romans 8. ...and enter INTO Christ to walk as He walked without sin.

 

[marks]

This is good Mark. It's best to leave judgment to God. And so often we may be going directly against the Lord's will and heart by not being willing to be corrected.

it's funny that we will pray to God for instruction and understanding..and when it comes, we don't like the vessel that God chose to bring it in...

Even so we are still to judge ourselves, so we don't need to be judged. Always in humility, and the fear of the LORD, but we need to learn to become self-aware, and honest. So we can really see what we do, and can lay it down.

Much love!

 

[Jim B]

Oh…there’s that new age thingy again…
A man beats his wife. Her truth, and the truth of a good portion of onlookers, is that he is wrong to do it. HIS truth, and the truth of a good portion of his friends, is that she brought it upon herself.

Now what? The man speaks HIS truth regarding it. Except…it’s NOT truth.
So the phrase is bad. I think it is.

What does this mean?

 

[marks]

We can get that wrong. Like, REALLY wrong.

Yeah.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Tear down this temple and in three days I will raise it up.

But there is still this: remain in Me AND I in you.
If we are unfaithful, He is still faithful because He can’t deny Himself, His own body. So remain in me concerns OUR faithfulness. “And I in you” concerns HIS faithfulness.

 

[marks]

It is not possible, (and even simple observation will show it), that “baptized into His death” means your flesh is dead. It is NOT dead and it still wars against the Spirit in you to hinder Gods work in your heart and mind.

Is this then to say that you don't believe that your old man is crucified with Christ when you are baptized into His death?

That passage is clear. That's what it says, so what remains is whether you believe it or not.

Much love!

 

[Waiting on him]

Is this then to say that you don't believe that your old man is crucified with Christ when you are baptized into His death?

That passage is clear. That's what it says, so what remains is whether you believe it or not.

Much love!

Strengthen that which remains? @stunnedbygrace

 

[Eternally Grateful]

But there is still this: remain in Me AND I in you.
If we are unfaithful, He is still faithful because He can’t deny Himself, His own body. So remain in me concerns OUR faithfulness. “And I in you” concerns HIS faithfulness.

and here we have eternal security 101.

Even if we remain faithless. he will remain faithful

Salvation is not us. its all him..

 

[marks]

Reckoning something like being dead and experiencing death itself is very different indeed.

Yes it is.

So that's why this question is, to me, so important. Are you baptised into Christ? And if you are, do you believe your old man shared in His crucifixion, and is therefore crucified with Christ? We need to establish the foundation.

This passage is clear that when we are baptized into Christ, that we are baptized into His death, crucifying our old man. And that being now dead, having been crucified with Him, our flesh has been made powerless, making us free from sin, and we are to account this as truth.

So my question here seems pretty simple to me, do you believe this is true?

I'm not asking at this point whether or not you experience this freedom from sin, that comes after. I mean, how will someone walk in freedom from sin if they don't believe they can?

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Is this then to say that you don't believe that your old man is crucified with Christ when you are baptized into His death?

That passage is clear. That's what it says, so what remains is whether you believe it or not.

Much love!

My old man dead in the way you see it would not be ABLE to then do war against the Holy Spirits work in my heart and mind. Dead men don’t make any sort of ruckus like that.
I can only grasp it as…my old man is as good as dead since God is not going to let him live or enter into a walk in His Spirit. God will instead lead me into the desert and I will pick up my cross and follow and He will help me put to death the deeds of that old man.
I guess that’s a good approximation of how I see it.

 

[marks]

...by claiming for ourselves not only a personal righteousness...but the righteousness of God Himself.

Philippians 3:4-11 KJV
4) Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5) Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6) Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7) But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8) Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10) That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11) If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

Is this then to say that you don't believe that your old man is crucified with Christ when you are baptized into His death?

That passage is clear. That's what it says, so what remains is whether you believe it or not.

Much love!

Here you take an initial stage too far. We are baptized into His death...who we used to be. But it still takes the Spirit to overcome the deeds of the flesh.

When I talk about walking without sin...I get all kinds of unbelief and abuse! Why? Because that level of walk is not given (usually) as an initial experience of grace. When we realize that sin is still working in us...like Paul describes in Romans 7...we have 3 choices. either we give up...or we justify ourselves based on Romans 6...OR..CRY OUT to God until He liberates us from our flesh prison. He came to set the captives free. But we must cry out with ALL our hearts. The standard of God has never changed. We have to have the faith of Enoch to be translated into the kingdom realm.

 

[Episkopos]

Philippians 3:4-11 KJV
4) Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5) Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6) Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7) But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8) Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10) That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11) If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Much love!

What are you claiming here..to be of the tribe of Benjamin? Why are you citing Paul's testimony?

Were you also shipwrecked 3 times?

 

[marks]

My old man dead in the way you see it would not be ABLE to then do war against the Holy Spirits work in my heart and mind.

I think that's more the way you see it, at least, that doesn't fit my understanding.

I really wish people would stop putting words into my mouth!

Much love!