What is the one true Church?

[Ziggy]

This world loves labels.

I am this, you are that. How about Just be you?
Hugs

 

[Eternally Grateful]

On the contrary - Pope John Paul II publicly apologized for the errors and atrocities perpetrated by some of his predecessors. However - this doesn't make the Church itself responsible.

Should all Protestants be held responsible for the sins of Jim Bakker or john Calvin or Jimmy Swaggarrt or any number of other unsavory characters?
These were human beings who did some evil things, as did some of the men in Catholic Church history. There were more great examoples of saintly behavior during this SAME time than there were villains.

Just like the sex and molestation scandals that have rocked the Catholic and Protestant worlds.
It is the Protestant denomination that is responsible - or the individuals involved??
Like ANY other sin - it is the individuals involved.

your argument falls on its face

the protestant church is not claiming infalibity. and that the vicar of Christ is Christs representatives. and that the church represents Christ

Non of the men you mentioned make claims your church does. so they do not fit.

 

[BreadOfLife]

See there's the clincher.
You should forgive them because you love them, not because you yourself will or won't be forgiven.
I certainly have the power to hold a grudge. But I also am aware that if I hold that grudge I end up hurting myself in the long run.
Period.

Hugs

You forgive out of love - AND out of a sense of justice.

As for holding a grudge - that is NOT what the power if "Binding" is.
To bind sin us to withhold forgiveness. You don't have that power. This is a priestly power that Jesus gave to the Apostles and their successors (John 20:21-23)/

 

[BreadOfLife]

your argument falls on its face

the protestant church is not claiming infalibity. and that the vicar of Christ is Christs representatives. and that the church represents Christ

Non of the men you mentioned make claims your church does. so they do not fit.

And your response falls flat on its face because you fail to understand what Papal Infallibility is.

It's NOT the idea that the Pope cannot be wrong about anything. It simply states that he cannot TEACH error in matter of the faith.
He can screw up just like ANYBODY else because he is not impeccable.

 

[Ziggy]

I was baptized a Catholic.
I remeber going to Sunday school and the Sisters never smiled. They scared me.
And when I would go to Mass, the Priest never talked to me. He just said stand up sit down and kneel.
And basically keep your mouth shut.

I never found any comfort there. And my family was a mess. You think I would of found something to hold onto, but I didn't.
It literally scared me.

Later when I was 17 I was baptised in a Southern Baptist Church. The Preacher scared me.
All he did was yell about fire and damnation and going to hell.

I never found comfort there. And my life was a mess. You would think I would of found something to hold onto, but I didn't.

Today I don't belong to any church. And I have no fear. And all I do is spend my days and nights with the Lord and my friends in this forum.
I find comfort here. And my life is good. I finally found something to hold onto. And that is the Lord Himself.

Hugs

 

[Ziggy]

To bind sin us to withhold forgiveness.

Yeah, that's my interpretation of a grudge.
I don't hold any, but I could. I could think of a lot of things I could choose not to forgive, but I don't.

This is a priestly power that Jesus gave to the Apostles and their successors (John 20:21-23)/

1Pe 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

So you are excluding me from something that Jesus included me in?

Amazing...

 

[Taken]

And the BIBLE clearly calls those "trespasses", "SIN" (harmartia) (Matt. 6:14-15).
You LOSE this argument . . .

There is no such thing as arguing with you.
You shout your nonsense, and the wise disagree with you.

You should have KEPT learning the Knowledge revealed....
Conversion IN Christ, is offered to ALL Believers.
Conversion IN Christ, MAKES A man WHOLE, body, soul, spirit;
by the Power of God, according to God,

Forgiven, Body Crucified, Soul Saved, Spirit Quickened.

1 John 3:
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

BELIEVING, is a mans WORKS.
CONVERSION, is a man reasonable SERVICE.

Done Deal, Accomplished, and Permanent!

No that man DOES NOT CONTINUE TO SIN.
Yes that man WILL CONTINUE TO TRESPASS AGAINST MEN...

(And for those who read, learn and study, they will discover the PRECEPTS of Gods teaching of HOW TO remedy their Trespasses!!)

 

[Taken]

I was baptized a Catholic.
I remeber going to Sunday school and the Sisters never smiled. They scared me.
And when I would go to Mass, the Priest never talked to me. He just said stand up sit down and kneel.
And basically keep your mouth shut.

I never found any comfort there. And my family was a mess. You think I would of found something to hold onto, but I didn't.
It literally scared me.

Later when I was 17 I was baptised in a Southern Baptist Church. The Preacher scared me.
All he did was yell about fire and damnation and going to hell.

I never found comfort there. And my life was a mess. You would think I would of found something to hold onto, but I didn't.

Today I don't belong to any church. And I have no fear. And all I do is spend my days and nights with the Lord and my friends in this forum.
I find comfort here. And my life is good. I finally found something to hold onto. And that is the Lord Himself.

Hugs

I have heard the same before....Scare the hell out of the younger and whoop, whoop. Scripture teaches Show the Lord Gods Love for you, and individuals decide if they desire to reciprocate.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Pay attention, Einstein:

Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary:
Full Definition of “PRAY”
transitive verb
1: ASK, entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>

2: to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

“Pray” simply means to “ASK” or “entreat”. “Worship” or “adoration” is a secondary definition.
I gave you 135 examples of Jesus ASKING questions – in other words, PRAYING.
Just because YOU are ignorant of the English language doesn’t make it “untrue” . . .

Pray does not “simply” mean ask.
Regarding Spiritual things, PRAYER is the highest method to ADDRESS the Lord God.
You speaking of Saints in Heaven, whose body lay dead in the Grave, IS you attempting to SOLICIT “spirits” OTHER than the Lord God.
THAT IS NEVER TAUGHT in Scripture.

Scripture expressly reveals to PRAY FOR...NOT TO...one another.

PS - you STILL haven't shown me where Rev. 5:8 is talking about the prayers of "unsaved believers".
This wouldn't prove your point anywway because it STILL shows heavenlky intercession for those on earth . . .

LOL...I never mentioned Rev 5:8.

 

[Taken]

On the contrary - Pope John Paul II publicly apologized for the errors and atrocities perpetrated by some of his predecessors. However - this doesn't make the Church itself responsible.

Should all Protestants be held responsible for the sins of Jim Bakker or john Calvin or Jimmy Swaggarrt or any number of other unsavory characters?

Apples and Oranges.
The POPE IS the head of the Catholic Church.
Men you mentioned were never the head of the Protestant Church.

What nonsense...one Pope apologizing for other Popes. Apologizers are genuine when the individual does the apologizing.
Christ’s Church is not held responsible but the Catholic Church is.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I was baptized a Catholic.
I remeber going to Sunday school and the Sisters never smiled. They scared me.
And when I would go to Mass, the Priest never talked to me. He just said stand up sit down and kneel.
And basically keep your mouth shut.

I never found any comfort there. And my family was a mess. You think I would of found something to hold onto, but I didn't.
It literally scared me.

Later when I was 17 I was baptised in a Southern Baptist Church. The Preacher scared me.
All he did was yell about fire and damnation and going to hell.

I never found comfort there. And my life was a mess. You would think I would of found something to hold onto, but I didn't.

Today I don't belong to any church. And I have no fear. And all I do is spend my days and nights with the Lord and my friends in this forum.
I find comfort here. And my life is good. I finally found something to hold onto. And that is the Lord Himself.

Hugs

A few things jumped out at me as I read your testimony.

For starters – your portrait of the Catholic Church smacks more of a bad, low-budget movie than reality. Your claim that you were just told to “keep your mouth shut” is just silly. EVERYBODY is encouraged to sing and respond to the prayers. Keeping your “mouth shut” during Mass is NOT an option.

The second thing that jumped out at me was how “scared” you seem to be, no matter which church you are in. It seems like ALL you want to hear about is the rewards – but BOT about the punishments for the unfaithful, If you are unfaithful – you SHOULD be scared,

Finally – if don’t belong to the Church – you SHOULD be scared.
We are NOT supposed to go through this alone – that’s why Jesus left us with a Church. If you’re NOT part of the Church – you’re NOT part of the Body of Christ.

Paul explains that ALL parts of the Body need each other (1 Cor. 12) and that we are NOT to forsake the assembling of ourselves (Heb. 10:25).

 

[BreadOfLife]

Apples and Oranges.
The POPE IS the head of the Catholic Church.
Men you mentioned were never the head of the Protestant Church.

What nonsense...one Pope apologizing for other Popes. Apologizers are genuine when the individual does the apologizing.
Christ’s Church is not held responsible but the Catholic Church is.

The men I mentioned were ALL the LEADERS of their factions - self-appointed "Popes".

Nice TRY – but your response falls flat . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Pray does not “simply” mean ask.
Regarding Spiritual things, PRAYER is the highest method to ADDRESS the Lord God.
You speaking of Saints in Heaven, whose body lay dead in the Grave, IS you attempting to SOLICIT “spirits” OTHER than the Lord God.
THAT IS NEVER TAUGHT in Scripture.

Scripture expressly reveals to PRAY FOR...NOT TO...one another.

Wanna bet??

AS I schooled you in my last post - "PRAY" simply means "ASK", "ENTREAT", "SUPPLICATE".
The primary definition has NOTHING to do with God. He only appears in the secondary definition . . .

Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary:
Full Definition of “PRAY”
transitive verb
1: ASK, entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>

2: to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

LOL...I never mentioned Rev 5:8.

I know you didn't - I did.
All YOU did was dodge the issue.

Rev. 5:8 shows the saints inj Heaven taking our prayers to God.
This is the very definition of intercession . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

There is no such thing as arguing with you.
You shout your nonsense, and the wise disagree with you.

You should have KEPT learning the Knowledge revealed....
Conversion IN Christ, is offered to ALL Believers.
Conversion IN Christ, MAKES A man WHOLE, body, soul, spirit;
by the Power of God, according to God,

Forgiven, Body Crucified, Soul Saved, Spirit Quickened.

1 John 3:
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

BELIEVING, is a mans WORKS.
CONVERSION, is a man reasonable SERVICE.

Done Deal, Accomplished, and Permanent!

No that man DOES NOT CONTINUE TO SIN.
Yes that man WILL CONTINUE TO TRESPASS AGAINST MEN...

(And for those who read, learn and study, they will discover the PRECEPTS of Gods teaching of HOW TO remedy their Trespasses!!)

And, as I’ve schooled you in several posts now – a “trespass” is a SIN, according to the Bible:

Matt. 6:14015
For if you FORGIVE other people when they SIM against you, your heavenly Father will also FORGIVE you. But if you do not FORGIVE others their SINS, your Father will not FORGIVE your sins.

The Greek works used here for “sin” (hamartia) is th=e SAME word used elswjere in the NT for “SIN”,

You LOSE . . .

 

[Grailhunter]

Why do you disagree with Paul (1 Corinthians) and Matthew (19)?

FYI....There are married Catholic priests

Your entire post is bizarre and a lie.

Matthew 19:4-6
4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

Why do you think I disagree with this?

FYI....There are married Catholic priest
I have never meet any or read about any or seen any on TV.
So tell us more about them.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yeah, that's my interpretation of a grudge.
I don't hold any, but I could. I could think of a lot of things I could choose not to forgive, but I don't.

1Pe 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

So you are excluding me from something that Jesus included me in?

Amazing...

You're NOT part of the Ministerial Priesthood.
Time for a Bible Lesson . . .

In the Old Testament, there were three levels of Priests:
Aaron, the High Priest (Exod. 28:1), the Levitical/Ministerial Priesthood (Num,. 18:20-24), and the rest of the people were a general priesthood of believers (Exod. 19:6).

In the New Testament, there are also three levels of Priests: Jesus, our High Priest (1 Tim. 2:5, Heb. 7:22-25), the Ministerial Priests (James 5:14-15) and the general priesthood of all Christians (1 Peter 2:5-9).
Just as with all New Testament fulfillments, the fulfillment is always more glorious than the Old Testament type.

Finally, in the Epistle of Jude, we read the warning about those who would usurp Church Authority by assuming the ministerial priesthood without the Church’s consent (Jude 1:11). In this passage he compares them to the rebellion of Korah and their subsequent punishment (Numbers 16:1-35; 31:16).

In Rom. 15:15-16, Paul talks about this ministerial priestly duty referring to himself as priest (hee-er-oorg-eh'-o).

 

[Grailhunter]

You should read ALL of Scripture instead of those parts that fit YOUR narrative: and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

You should try some of this too......
“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matthew 5:48
“If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. Luke 14:26

You are misinterpreting the scriptures to suite you and it does not fit reality.
God had the whole Old Testament to say.....IF YOU LOVE ME DON'T HAVE SEX. But that is not what He said.....
But He did say....
For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
Most people miss "shall leave his father and mother" not can....not might....or if he wants to....Genesis 2:24
God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth..... Genesis 1:28
Notice He did not say "Pretty please will you be fruitful and multiply.....Thank you in advance.....smile smile" It is the only commandment that He repeats over and over again in the Old Testament. This attraction to celibacy is just as strange and unnatural as homosexualality.

This celibate thing you guys have going on in your head just does not workout and has caused some the greatest of sins and disgrace to the Church....we know because some people did interpret the scriptures like you do.....

Just because a guy decides to be celibate that does not reduce the sex drives and they are part of the survival instincts so it is going to happen more times than not. And in a male dominate religion when you put a restrictions on marriage and sex....women become the tempters......then they are linked to Satan.... then the Church starts stripping them and torturing them and burning them at the stake and making their children watch.

All the result of this perverted interpretations of scriptures it lead some Catholic Christian leaders to believe that marriage and sex was a sin and women were the evil tempter of good men.

Origen, St. Jerome, St. Augustine, St. Ambrose, and St. Thomas Aquinas, these men had very negative views towards women and taught that anything to do with sex was straight from Satan. Any type of sexuality, beauty, feelings, romance, love, or pleasure were the worst of sins, and celibacy, ugly, sorrow, suffering, and pain were Godly. Romanic love in itself was considered wrong. They believed marital sex was a sin even though they acknowledged that it was a necessity. An insane conundrum of logic. A man’s desire for his wife was considered lust and the only time marital sex should be performed was to have children and after that sex should stop. Origen actually castrated himself because he thought his penis was tempting him. Ouch! This is after a slue of sexual issues and his statements against the evils of women and sex.

Even though St. Jerome obviously preferred the company of women, (Because the company he kept and most of his followers were women.) He still had this to say about the status of women: “….it is contrary to the order of nature, or of law, that women should speak in the assembly of men……and man should be commanded to love his wife, whereas the wife should fear her husband.” and he also said “Nothing is so unclean as a woman in her periods; what she touches she causes to become unclean.” .....Written by St. Jerome

“Because Eve caused the fall of Man she and all women were cursed to painfully deliver children between urine and feces.” ....Written by St. Jerome

“He who ardently loves his own wife is an adulterer.” ....Written by St. Jerome

On the topic of sexual desire Augustine had this to say....“Who can control this when its appetite is aroused? No one! In the very movement of this appetite, then, it has no ‘mode’ that responds to the decisions of the will. But when those who delight in this pleasure are not moved to it at their own will, whether they confine themselves to lawful or transgress to a unlawful pleasures; but sometimes this lust importunes them in spite of themselves, and sometimes fails them when they desire to feel it, so that though lust rages in the mind, it stirs not in the body .....Written by St. Augustine

“This diabolical excitement of the genitals…” (As St. Augustine refers to the act of sex.) …is evidence of Adam’s original sin which is now transmitted “from the mother’s womb,” tainting all human beings with sin, and leaving them incapable of choosing good over evil, or determining their own destiny.” ....Written by St. Augustine

“We must conclude, that a husband is meant to rule over his wife as the spirit rules over the flesh. and “the flesh lusts against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh.” ....Written by St. Augustine

Referring to the Hell that awaits women, Augustine in his famous Latin sermon ''Ad Fratres in Eremitate Sermo LXIX.'' He describes how Satan seized the damned female and commanded his fellow devils to “pierce her eyes with forks as she enjoyed looking at unclean things, pierce her mouth as she used them for blasphemy, pierce her heart, as she did not harbor piety, compassion, clemency, and forgiveness there, pierce her hands with the heavy fork forged in Hell since she reached with them at things unclean and did not use them to distribute alms and help her neighbors, use the fiery forks to pierce her legs that she used to dance and meet her lovers.' Then to the gates of Hell she is carried and then '"out steps a hideous, horrible dragon, always ready to devour sinners. The dragon inserts the female into his mouth, full of stench. After chewing and digesting its prey, the dragon vomits the female into a fiery lake, where millions of other sinners wait for their trial by our Lord." .....Written by St. Augustine

”..marriage is a crime against God, because it changed the state of virginity that God gave every man and woman at birth....Marriage is a prostitution of the members of Christ, and married people ought to blush at the state in which they live.” Written by St. Ambrose

In the year 553 A.D. At a Council of bishops in Macon, religious leaders debate and voted on whether or not females had souls. By a narrow margin the Bishops decide that females have souls. Like it was their choice.

Penitential regulation laid down in the 7th century by Theodore, Bishop of Canterbury, forbade menstruating women to take communion or even enter the church. At the French Synod of Meraux, menstruating women were specifically forbidden to come to church

We move forward to the year 940 A.D. A well-respected religious leader named Odo, who was the leader of the Monks of Cluny, wrote, “To embrace a woman is to embrace a sack of manure.” And considered “….the beauty of a woman the greatest of snares.”

For this reason the hatred of women and marriage became popular in the Catholic Church. It is not only the wrong interpretations of the scriptures it has caused things that Satan would applaud.

 

[Taken]

The men I mentioned were ALL the LEADERS of their factions - self-appointed "Popes".

Nice TRY – but your response falls flat . . .

Protestant Popes…LOL
Do you never CEASE from jabbering nonsense AS IF you were appointed to Speak for everyone else… ? You should step outside of your EGO and have a look see how Ridiculous you are.

 

[Grailhunter]

Your comments above in RED highlight your complete dishonestly and abject ignorance.

NOBODY is saying that the New Testament advocates celibacy for “ALL” Christians.
Paul makes it crystal-clear that when it comes to serving God, marriage is a GOOD thing – but celibacy is better (1 Cor. 7:38).

NOBODY is saying that the New Testament has “NO focus on the family.
Scripture is littered with verses about the importance of family (Gen. 2:24, Exod. 20:12, 1 Tim. 3:5, 5:8, Col. 3:20).

Finally – NOBODY is talking about Jewish people being celibate – even though, Paul, a Jewish guy WAS celibate.
This is about CHRISTIANS. The Law does NOT pertain to Christians – especially GENTILE Christians, whom Paul is writing to.

Your argument goes in all directions because you simply do NOT grasp what Paul is saying in 1 Cor. 7. It’s not a mandate to be celibate. It’s a CHOICE – and a very HOLY choice at that.

See post 918
And not all of the Apostles were celibate and still served God well.

 

[Taken]

Wanna bet??

Not surprised you do not delineate between what is Spiritual and what is Secular.