Sanctification is not a Process

[amigo de christo]

I understand this particular part to be speaking something like,

Tribulation/affliction works endurance, in the way that if we don't patiently endure, we eventually learn that doesn't work for us. So we learn to wait on God to work.

Endurance works experience, that is, as we accumulate in our lives the experiences of God coming through for us, this gives us a "body of evidence" (experience) in our lives of His faithfulness.

Having that body of evidence behind us, we have hope for the future, knowing that God will remain faithful as He's shown Himself faithful in the past. We have a greater strength of faith, and believing His promises, that is our expectation.

Much love!

No my dear friend . This is speaking of persecutions of men against us .
Look at all the tribulations the apostels endured and what a character in built in them .

 

[marks]

No my dear friend . This is speaking of persecutions of men against us .
Look at all the tribulations the apostels endured and what a character in built in them .

I see it speaking about anything that afflicts us, certainly including persecutions, the fiery trial,

2 Corinthians 11:25-28 KJV
25) Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26) In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
27) In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
28) Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

and in all these things,

2 Corinthians 12:9-10 KJV
9) And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10) Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

Doesn't peiradzo produce dokimazo? In the child of God, that is?

1 Peter 1:6-7 KJV
6) Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7) That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Much love!

Yes--you and I both know peiradzo is used in a bad/negative sense here--I would say this is the process or inner conflict in the believer, an ongoing conflict, till the final redemption of our bodies, but it is necessary and needful/helpful for us, not to boast, no room for pride, and an utter dependency/yielding on a daily basis to the Father and our Lord and great God and Savior Jesus Christ--His imperatives, --or would you say this experience is just for a season @marks?

[Guess you can tell I wasn't near a ekklesia/Shul all these years?]

1) "That the trial of your faith." (Gk. hina) In order that or so that the (Gk. dokimion) testing or proving of the faith of you - the Spiritual gift that brought you salvation, 1Co_13:13; Eph_2:8-9.

2) "Being much more precious than gold that perisheth” (Gk. polutimoteron) being or existing as much or abundantly more precious than (chrusiou) gold of the perishing nature or kind.

3) "Though it be tried by fire." Gk. dia puros) through fire even (Gk. dokimazomenou) being tested or proved.

4) "Might be found unto praise and honor and glory." (Gk. euretha eis epainon) may or might be found unto praise, even glory and honor.

5) "At the appearing of Jesus Christ." (Gk. en pokalupsei) in the unveiling or revelation of Jesus Christ.

6) The word suffering" is the key word in 1 Peter, and it is used some 17 times. That Christians should be willing to suffer and endure it for the sake of Jesus Christ is set forth as a disciplinary Christian virtue that leads to maturity and eventual rewards and glory at the coming of the Lord, 1Pe_4:13; 2Ti_2:12.

TRIED AND TRUE

When a founder has cast his bell he does not at once put it into the steeple, but tries it with the hammer, and beats it on every side, to see if there is a f law. So when Christ converts a man, He does not at once convey him to heaven, but suffers him to be beaten upon by many temptations and afflictions, and then exalts him to his crown. As snow is of itself cold, yet warms and refreshes the earth, so afflictions, though in themselves grievous, keep the Christian's soul warm and make it fruitful.

--Fellowship News.


Temptations (πειρασμοῖς)
Better, trials, as in margin of Rev., since the word includes more than direct solicitation to evil. It embraces all that goes to furnish a test of character. Compare Jas_1:2.
1) "Wherein ye greatly rejoice " (Gk. en ho) "in which (assurance, reservation hope) ye exult or greatly rejoice.

2) "Though now for a season." (Gk. ei deon) If necessary at this moment, (arti) temporarily, (holigon), a little while.

3) " If need be, or should it be necessary.

4) "Ye are in heaviness" or are softly grieving, weeping (Gk. lupethentes) to be laden with a burden of sorrow.

5) "Through manifold temptations." (en poikilois) in or through variegated, many shaded, colored (peirasmois) testings, trials, or temptations, 2Pe_2:9; 1Co_10:13.

Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
Jas 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
Jas 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Jas 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
Jas 1:7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
Jas 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
Jas 1:9 Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:

manifold: Psa_34:19; Joh_16:33; Act_14:22; 1Co_4:9-13; 2Co_4:7-11, 2Co_11:23-27; Heb_11:35-38; Jas_1:2

I'm trying brother--the inner conflict is real, in real time and I believe it is not for a season.
J.

 

[Lizbeth]

I can say this though, Israel kept silencing and killing her prophets and in those days, when there wasn’t a prophet (other than dead ones), every man began to do what was right in his own sight. If that isn’t speaking of the plethora of denominations then I don’t know what does. And if one can’t see it, I can’t show them.

Israel always slid towards entropy after awhile, God sent a prophet to warn, to get back on track. One of those prophets (I think Ezra?) saw something from reading the word of God that no one had yet seen. That sight began rebuilding. It made Sanballat was it? and some other men very angry. They did everything they could to stop rebuilding of the wall.
I see that same thing in here.

Types and shadows, which I agree the church needs to heed the lessons of. Keep in mind that we're in a new paradigm now though, under the new covenant:

Luk 16:16

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Jhn 6:44-45

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Jer 31:34

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.



New covenant prophets:

1Co 14:29-32

Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.



1Co 14:3

But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

 

[Lizbeth]

Vs. 7-13: A WARNING TO JUDAH

1. Here Isaiah pictures the filth and tragedy of drunkenness on the part of the leaders in Jerusalem (vs. 7-8; Isa_22:12-13; Jer_48:26)-drunken priests perverting judgment (Isa_24:2; Isa_24:5; Hab_2:15-16; Isa_59:11-14), and drunken prophets perverting the word they were responsible to proclaim in purity, (Isa_9:15; Isa_30:9-10; Isa_59:3-4; Jer_23:14).

2. Rebuffed by Isaiah's admonition, the people of Jerusalem resent and mock his method - saying that he is treating them like babes just weaned from their mother's breasts, (vs. 9-10; Heb_5:12-13; 1Pe_2:2; Psa_131:1-3).

3. But, the prophet assures them that, if they will not be admonished in plain, simple and understandable language, then God will instruct them in the language of the Chaldeans which they do not understand! (vs. 11; comp. 1Co_14:21).

4. The Lord offered them true rest and refreshment through trust in His Word; but they refused to hear; thus, they would stumble and fall backward - to be broken, snared and taken captive, (vs. 12-13; Isa_30:15; Jer_6:16; Mat_11:28-29; Isa_8:13-15; Mat_21:43-44).

J.

Amen...the prophets were so bad at that time the Lord had to wean the people off them (those who were willing at least - a remnant).

 

[Lizbeth]

We are in dilapidated condition. I can’t convince you of that, I won’t even try. But I see more of the mistakes of Israel, repeated, than I do some magnificent edifice. But no one can help what they see.

I don't need convincing of that, don't worry......I agree the state of the church at large is very backslidden, and yes it reflects the condition of Israel in her apostasy unfortunately. Except for a remnant....the Lord always has a remnant. Judgments/chastisements are already underway...if things don't turn around it's going to keep getting worse.

(But God still LOVES His people nevertheless....we need to heed the book of Obadiah and what our heart attitude should be and not be towards our brothers/sisters in Christ.)

 

[Lizbeth]

I see this reflected in Ephesians 4,

Ephesians 4:11-15 KJV
11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15) But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

He gave us all of these to mature us. That maturity will involve us having unity in the faith and knowledge of the Son of God. We could spend a long time just unpacking that!

Ephesians 4:16 KJV
From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

We are taught as we mature, and when we've matured in Christ we build each other up, in a body that is nourished by every member.

But like you said, we can always receive teaching. My choices for what to listen to are choral hymns, Bible reading, and Bible teaching.

Much love!

Amen, and I think Moses is a good example of someone who had matured into his calling....the Lord called him at the burning bush and Moses turned back around to Egypt to rescue his people out of there and lead them through the exact same wilderness he himself had come to know like the back of his hand after 40 years of being there!

And once again we must be careful of our attitude and not despise the day of small beginnings....even though Moses made mistakes at first, he was commended for having renounced the riches and pleasures of Egypt to be identified with the Lord and His people.

 

[Johann]

Tribulation/affliction works endurance, in the way that if we don't patiently endure, we eventually learn that doesn't work for us. So we learn to wait on God to work.

Amen, and I think Moses is a good example of someone who had matured into his calling....the Lord called him at the burning bush and Moses turned back around to Egypt to rescue his people out of there and lead them through the exact same wilderness he himself had come to know like the back of his hand after 40 years of being there!

And once again we must be careful of our attitude and not despise the day of small beginnings....even though Moses made mistakes at first, he was commended for having renounced the riches and pleasures of Egypt to be identified with the Lord and His people.

Yup, thank you for this reminder--to not despise small beginnings.

 

[marks]

and Moses turned back around to Egypt to rescue his people out of there and lead them through the exact same wilderness he himself had come to know like the back of his hand after 40 years of being there!

My pastor said this exact sentence or nearly so in his message last Sunday.

He was giving examples of times when what we thought was our utter defeat was actually the direct path towards God's plan.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes--you and I both know peiradzo is used in a bad/negative sense here--I would say this is the process or inner conflict in the believer, an ongoing conflict, till the final redemption of our bodies, but it is necessary and needful/helpful for us, not to boast, no room for pride, and an utter dependency/yielding on a daily basis to the Father and our Lord and great God and Savior Jesus Christ--His imperatives, --or would you say this experience is just for a season @marks?

I see the flesh against the spirit being the ongoing conflict within us day to day.

I characterize the afflictions to be anything contrary to us, within or without. Pain and illness, mental illness, emotional suffering, and persecutions, tragedies, violations of our persons, all of these things. Long drawn out times of suffering, whatever it may be. I see these things in seasons.

But then, I think God works individually with all of us, and He knows us in ways we can't even guess at. So if it's right in His eyes, good for me to endure a very long season of testing and proving, who can say to Him, What are you doing?

Much love!

 

[Johann]

What are you doing?

What am I doing? Well, living a reclusive style of life, [not by choice] no friendships, not belonging to a Church--and to tell you the truth, I don't know what I'm doing here.

Of course there is conflict of the flesh against the Spirit but unlike you, I see the peiradzo and dokimazo as part of the ongoing conflict--whether without, or within.
Also, I am not as literate and eloquent as you are brother and it is very difficult for me to express what is in my heart with words, or to socialize in a Chatroom--but I'm trying.

Hence my reliance on my "Aaron"--commentaries, which is debunked as traditions of men. There you have it @marks, just a backward, illiterate S. African, not bringing anything to the table.
Thanks for putting me in the spot.
Later.
J.

 

[marks]

Of course there is conflict of the flesh against the Spirit but unlike you, I see the peiradzo and dokimazo as part of the ongoing conflict--whether without, or within.

I don't really have any disagreement here, really, it's all the same thing to me. Just like as some think of the devil being behind every temptation, some think of the flesh being behind temptations, whichever it is, temptation is temptation, whatever it's source.

We overcome by faith.

What am I doing?

I think I came across wrong there. I meant to echo Solomon's words of the King, Where the king's word is, there is power, and no one can say to him, what are you doing?

We aren't to second-guess God's work, just patiently endure hardships in continuance of well doing.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Also, I am not as literate and eloquent as you are brother and it is very difficult for me to express what is in my heart with words, or to socialize in a Chatroom--but I'm trying.

I think you are doing well, and I've been blessed by your being here.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

We aren't to second-guess God's work, just patiently endure hardships in continuance of well doing.

In what manner are we not to second-guess God's word?

 

[Johann]

Where the king's word is, there is power, and no one can say to him, what are you doing?

Ecc 8:4 Where the word of a king is, there is power: and who may say unto him, What doest thou?

 

[marks]

In what manner are we not to second-guess God's word?

His Work. To not question what He does. Which means to not question the circumstances of our lives.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

His Work. To not question what He does. Which means to not question the circumstances of our lives.

Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Functions of Kings
Verse 2 declares the glorious omniscience of God who knows and has reasons for all things (much of which is unknown to man, Rom_11:33-36) and the honor of kings to whom is entrusted the searching out of those things God would have them reveal to men, Deu_29:29; Job_29:16; Ezr_4:15; Ezr_4:19; Ezr_6:1.


Later.

 

[Lizbeth]

What am I doing? Well, living a reclusive style of life, [not by choice] no friendships, not belonging to a Church--and to tell you the truth, I don't know what I'm doing here.

Of course there is conflict of the flesh against the Spirit but unlike you, I see the peiradzo and dokimazo as part of the ongoing conflict--whether without, or within.
Also, I am not as literate and eloquent as you are brother and it is very difficult for me to express what is in my heart with words, or to socialize in a Chatroom--but I'm trying.

Hence my reliance on my "Aaron"--commentaries, which is debunked as traditions of men. There you have it @marks, just a backward, illiterate S. African, not bringing anything to the table.
Thanks for putting me in the spot.
Later.
J.

Ah, not so. There's often an anointing on what you bring, dear brother. But I know how the devil at times makes us feel all kinds of things that aren't true in God's eyes....but the Lord turns it around for good because He wants to heal us in the deep areas of our hearts where the Accuser accuses.....I think what we go through in life is tailor-made by God to bring those things up to the surface, into the light.

The Lord has taken so much away from my life that I used to rely on for self worth, identity, purpose, etc, that sometimes I feel overwhelmed at just being alive because it's as though I don't know how to "be" alive any more, and in those moments I draw near to God in deeper ways than previously, because I need Him more. I believe He is emptying us of ourselves in order to fill us with more of Him. It's as though we start to draw our life from Him more and more when there is nothing else left to draw our life from.....abiding in the vine in a deeper way.

 

[Lizbeth]

His Work. To not question what He does. Which means to not question the circumstances of our lives.

Much love!

True, but we're human, so there may be times when we're gonna react out of our pain at times. I was frustrated and angry with Him once and I know I've asked Him at times what is going on or whether I have stepped out of His will in some way. I find that when I am real with Him, He answers quickly. And He is big enough to take our emotions. But it's a comfort to know that He will never leave us or forsake us....even though there are times when we will feel forsaken like Jesus on the cross in order that some aspect of our self-life can weaken or die. (I wonder if the Father had not turned His face away, as it were, briefly, could Jesus have died.)

 

[Johann]

Ah, not so. There's often an anointing on what you bring, dear brother. But I know how the devil at times makes us feel all kinds of things that aren't true in God's eyes....but the Lord turns it around for good because He wants to heal us in the deep areas of our hearts where the Accuser accuses.....I think what we go through in life is tailor-made by God to bring those things up to the surface, into the light.

The Lord has taken so much away from my life that I used to rely on for self worth, identity, purpose, etc, that sometimes I feel overwhelmed at just being alive because it's as though I don't know how to "be" alive any more, and in those moments I draw near to God in deeper ways than previously, because I need Him more. I believe He is emptying us of ourselves in order to fill us with more of Him. It's as though we start to draw our life from Him more and more when there is nothing else left to draw our life from.....abiding in the vine in a deeper way.

I don't rely on self, or self worth, sister, in fact, I don't like myself and don't know what my purpose in life is--I was whole in my marriage to my dear, godly wife and in the ministry we were in there was a sense of purpose and "being alive" and sensed the presence of the Holy Spirit--since then, the ministry closed and lost my wife--as if I'm not empty enough of "self"

Guess God is doing something--small beginnings--and instead of letting my emotions get the better of me, since I am human and not a super duper holy joe--I'll encourage myself in Christ or be encouraged by Him.

I'm not being sarcastic here re the "holy joe" and I don't suffer from an inferiority complex--but reaching out to others is difficult, for me, in a social manner.
Let me be upfront with you, I'm not here seeking friends, but godly brothers and sisters that can help a fallen comrade, in this race to the celestial city.

I don't worry much re the demons, they can't touch me or influence me and I have an Advocate with the Father.

Again, this is not a place to give my personal testimonies or reveal my weaknesses.

I sincerely hope you understand what I'm trying to convey to you.
J.

11 For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

Psalms 34:18
Praying for You
18 The LORD is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit.

Psalms 147:3
Brokenhearted
3 He heals the brokenhearted and binds up their wounds.

Revelation 21:4
4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

Matthew 4:23-25
23 Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people.
24 News about him spread all over Syria, and people brought to him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed; and he healed them.
25 Large crowds from Galilee, the Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea and the region across the Jordan followed him.

Psalms 23
Your Daily Verse - Psalm 23:5
1 The LORD is my shepherd, I lack nothing.
2 He makes me lie down in green pastures, he leads me beside quiet waters,
3 he refreshes my soul. He guides me along the right paths for his name’s sake.
4 Even though I walk through the darkest valley,I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.
5 You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies. You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows.
6 Surely your goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever.

2 Corinthians 1:3-8
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,
4 who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves receive from God.
5 For just as we share abundantly in the sufferings of Christ, so also our comfort abounds through Christ.
6 If we are distressed, it is for your comfort and salvation; if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which produces in you patient endurance of the same sufferings we suffer.
7 And our hope for you is firm, because we know that just as you share in our sufferings, so also you share in our comfort.
8 We do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about the troubles we experienced in the province of Asia. We were under great pressure, far beyond our ability to endure, so that we despaired of life itself.