Sanctification is not a Process

[Lizbeth]

Exactly what motivated Luther. He trusted that his new interpretation was equivalent to "power" from heaven. Think...intellectual religious "power."

The kingdom of God is about scale and depth....not emotional triggering and human logic.

Mat 16:24-26
Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.
For whoever wants to save their life (psuche – soul-life) will lose it, but whoever loses their life (psuche) for me will find it.
What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?

Marvel at the wisdom of God - how well He knows us!

All I can say is that I'm surprised based on things you have written that you would be disagreeing with this aspect.

 

[ChristisGod]

The kingdom of God is about scale and depth....not emotional triggering and human logic.

oh the irony you just described yourself with human logic and emotionalism/ experience.

 

[Episkopos]

Mat 16:24-26
Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.
For whoever wants to save their life (psuche – soul-life) will lose it, but whoever loses their life (psuche) for me will find it.
What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?

Marvel at the wisdom of God - how well He knows us!

All I can say is that I'm surprised based on things you have written that you would be disagreeing with this aspect.

You have to see that being weaned of the flesh is not the same as having it put to death. And that carrying one's own cross is not the same as being crucified on the cross of Christ.

Jesus also carried His cross...all the way to Golgotha....to be crucified there. His physical stumbling was a picture of how we stumble as we carry what we are carrying in our own strength.

We can try carrying our cross (the outer man) for the rest of our lives...as followers of Christ...from a certain distance, stumbling as we go. OR we can carry our cross to the place of execution...and be both crucified and made to walk in resurrection life. In Him is no sin.

 

[ChristisGod]

You have to see that being weaned of the flesh is not the same as having it put to death. And that carrying one's own cross is not the same as being crucified on the cross of Christ.

Jesus also carried His cross...all the way to Golgotha....to be crucified there. His physical stumbling was a picture of how we stumble as we carry what we are carrying in our own strength.

We can try carrying our cross (the outer man) for the rest of our lives...as followers of Christ...from a certain distance, stumbling as we go. OR we can carry our cross to the place of execution...and be both crucified and made to walk in resurrection life. In Him is no sin.

Sounds like your still a catholic much like the monks.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are forgetting that anyone breaking the perfected laws of Christ that are all that can be conceived or known and made for any human being is based on the spirit of the original laws of God. And that breaking any one of them against a person or God directly can hamper our holiness (sanctification) indeed, if only temporarily. So even under grace, the law of Christ cannot boost or improve you sanctification with God either if you break the law as recognized by the spirit of Christ through the Father.

And the law is never only a few. With this kind of mentality it's no wonder you have not studied how and why the original law reveals all types of genuine sin placed within our heart. Today, the law and much more 'of it' is not written in the book of God, it is in our hearts. And I do not count the ceremonial and other cultural holy laws that God gave to the Hebrews here either.

I think you are missing the entire point here EG. I believe you are are so quick to identify yourself as for assurance I might add, as if you might be scared of the consequences of 'the law,' as to say you are saved by grace and you have an automatic 'get of sin card,' without any consequences. And further, you forget why you are forgiven today away for the harsh penalties when the imperfect law was the only devise God used on people, before Christ.

And then you brush it off as if the law was some prerequisite or an earlier experiment of God, in the past, and never to be spoken of again. You do know that because of God's grace we have the spirit of Christ. Without it we have the Law and no law under Christ? And where did you think that law came form? Yes, the law and more are written in our hearts today and we have a true Savior working in us to bring us or keep us holy and righteous. And we can truly thank the Father for that precious grace indeed.

The law is still standing there today as one of the witnesses of God for our age and not just the one before Christ, and is being killed off today in the churches and trodden underfoot. And this is where we get the hyper-grace theologies from and other extreme views that trivialize sin and the normalization and easy peasy formulation under grace to salvation. If you have faith and know you are saved from your sins, do you then bear your own cross today because of what the Savior did for you by paying with his own life and extracting you from your personal sin nature and imminent death?

The law will never go away as long as we are in the flesh. Have you ever stole anything directly or truly by accident or because of the error of an employee of a store.....so is this not the 'old' Law today still revealing sin in our hearts to Christ? And I do not weigh this upon you as I've been there several times, even a couple of months ago this happened to me.

the consequences of breaking the law is spiritual death. The penaltyu of sin is death,

so if we are under the law. we have no hope. because every time we break said law. we have a death penalty pronounced against us, and we are found guilty as charged.

How many sins are you charged with according to the law, each carrying a death penalty?

The gift of God is life. Your onlyu hope of having each death penalty against you redeemed is through Gods grace. And it is only through faith.

So please do not tell me I do not understand the law and its consequences, I understand quite well.

I also understand the law was given to lead us to christ. the law does not even come close to telling us every possible sin we could ever commit. so in that aspect. it lacks

it also does not tell us all the possible ways to break each command.

the command says do not commit adultry. so if I never have sex with another woman, i have kept the law. But if I see another woman and lust? I have broken the law.. But yet I do not know it. Because the law does not tell me that is a sin. Thats just one of many examples. That is why the law can NOT help you with maturity and help you grow in christ. At best it can give you a false idea you are actually a good person. when in reality, you are not.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Absolute carnal secular bovine excrement.

There is no such thing as the law of love.

Matt 23: 37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

1 John 4: 7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

1 John 4: 19 - We love Him because He first loved us.

The law of love.

Love does not come from self. It comes from God. Thats why a non believer who has not been born of God can do Good. Because in them, there is no true perfect love to share..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Exactly what motivated Luther. He trusted that his new interpretation was equivalent to "power" from heaven. Think...intellectual religious "power."

The kingdom of God is about scale and depth....not emotional triggering and human logic.

so are you equal with the Pope?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Once one is led to Christ the Holy Spirit indwells the man. The purposes of the indwelling spirit are many. Some of them are TO ENABLE US TO LIVE LIVES PLEASING UNTO GOD, by the LAW.

We aren't given the Holy Spirit to lead lives of hedonistic purpose are we? What standard then do we adhere to?

We live BY THE LAW, which is written upon the hearts of those who surrender to Christ. The LAW isn't gone at all because we LIVE IT and become a LIVING SACRIFICE unto God (Romans 12:1).

Either one embraces the LAW & GRACE of God or one doesn't. God isn't willing that any should perish, but that all should come to REPENTANCE, by the LAW.

The post-modern church today is withering on the vine because it has denied both the LAW and the savior to whom it directs us for salvation. Many churches today won't even mention the name of JESUS. They are, however, quite vehement in their support of overt SIN.

Which is it SIN or LAW? One cannot sit on the fence and be saved. Choose sides.

Christianity isn't a spectator sport.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

if you want to live by the law. You must be perfect.

That is the requirement of the law

Paul said do not put people under the yoke of the law which the fathers could not even keep.

If you want to see how to live in a way pleasing to God. stop looking at self and the law. and start looking to God.. Take the love he gave you, and share it with everyone you come in contact with (your neighbor)

only then will you find victory

 

[marks]

Bless you brother. I believe that is the old false self dying, the one that was living a lie....like Adam and Eve in the Garden when they ate from the wrong Tree. In my case, occasionally feeling like I don't know how to "be", how to exist, without that false persona. Sometimes feeling "neked as a jaybird" without that false covering, so a little feeling of almost panic ensues. And needing to learn how to live/exist as I was created in innocence before I ate the lie. False persona was trying to add my own to God's work (as if!) in order to feel "good enough." (We all follow the same pattern as Adam and Eve, so it's good to look deeply at how things went with them.)

More words I identify with . . .

I think in terms of the renewing of the mind, as we stop thinking in the old way, and learn to think in the new way. We have to just keep putting off our old manner of life, and re-embrace the new.

The panic, the need for self-affirmation, the need for control, all flesh mind. Living in innocence before God, a settled heart with no impediment, what the Spirit is leading us into, I believe, more and more.

Like a river glorious . . . perfect yet it groweth deeper every day, perfect yet it floweth fuller all the way . . .

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Sounds like your still a catholic much like the monks.

He is not a catholic.. He is not a protestant. He is not a orthodox.

He is his own

 

[ChristisGod]

He is not a catholic.. He is not a protestant. He is not a orthodox.

He is his own

I can see that alone on an island

 

[Eternally Grateful]

More words I identify with . . .

I think in terms of the renewing of the mind, as we stop thinking in the old way, and learn to think in the new way. We have to just keep putting off our old manner of life, and re-embrace the new.

The panic, the need for self-affirmation, the need for control, all flesh mind. Living in innocence before God, a settled heart with no impediment, what the Spirit is leading us into, I believe, more and more.

Like a river glorious . . . perfect yet it groweth deeper every day, perfect yet it floweth fuller all the way . . .

Much love!

we do this as we step out in faith.. everytime we do and realise God is faithful. we are renewing our mind.

 

[ChristisGod]

we do this as we step out in faith.. everytime we do and realise God is faithful. we are renewing our mind.

Philippians 2 having the same mindset as Jesus

And Paul commands us in Romans 12:1-2 having our minds renewed daily. That way we will be walking in Gods will.

 

[Wrangler]

Interesting testimony.

"They don't believe it is their job to point out sins."

In today's hedonistic society REPENTANCE is thought to cause people to walk away from the church.

Well, I think it is the fire and brimstone LECTURE that turns people off. My church talks about repentance all the time - in so many words - as a first step.

The position of the Methodist church is to call it the "soft gospel". A Methodist minister told me this personally.

It is this 'soft gospel' that denies SIN altogether, that leads to overt and embraced SIN, by the church and its leaders.

Not quite. Not denial. More like ignore for the most part. They prefer to attract witht the positive than beat into submission with the negative. Talk up grace while minimizing the difficulty one would have to overcome sin IF they embrace Christ more.

On a personal note, I am somewhat turned off by the "invitation" to always 'participate' in God's Kingdom more. The obvious implication is that we - or I, individually - am not doing enough. It may be a fine line on this being sin but it causes me to consider back off more. The LECTURE again.

What benefit do you find in berating people about sin?

 

[Wrangler]

He was making an overgeneralization, and I've found the quickest way to clarity, if someone is so inclined, is to simply ask if they include themselves.

On what basis did you determine his statement was an overgeneralization?

If I make the statement that humans breath air, it should be accepted as a correct general statement with no need whatsoever to include the clarification of including myself. Something's up with this marks.

Much love!

 

[Lizbeth]

You have to see that being weaned of the flesh is not the same as having it put to death. And that carrying one's own cross is not the same as being crucified on the cross of Christ.

Jesus also carried His cross...all the way to Golgotha....to be crucified there. His physical stumbling was a picture of how we stumble as we carry what we are carrying in our own strength.

We can try carrying our cross (the outer man) for the rest of our lives...as followers of Christ...from a certain distance, stumbling as we go. OR we can carry our cross to the place of execution...and be both crucified and made to walk in resurrection life. In Him is no sin.

I don't know brother, I'm just following the Lord one step at a time in my life, so I guess time will tell. It does seem as though that old nature is dying out, or else I'm dying to it, or both at the same time. We'll see.

 

[APAK]

My non-dominational congregation recently admitted to being a hyper-grace church. They don’t believe it is their job to point out sins. Rather, they believe it is the job of the Holy Spirit to convict people of their sin.

Regarding the law & OT, the say it is good for learning history but not application. I’ve written to the pastor pointing out the ONGOING applicability of the law. As I see it, it remains necessary training wheels of behavior until people grow sufficiently in Christ.

That is, many deceive themselves as acting in love but their actions betray them. Our confidence in the fact is revealed ONLY by the INGOING applicability of the law.

The retired pastor strongly disagreed. No coherent reason was given as far as I could tell.

Now I must point out and I began a thread that spoke of it briefly, that we must not get ahead of ourselves and say we sin when it is really a self-manufactured sin, and tagged as a 'just in case matter or concern.' And I also do rely on the Spirit within me to guide and/or convict of a clear sin.

As I have grown, it is through experience that I've learned to distinguish between real sin and maufactured sin by me or someone else pointing or waving a sin for me.

I do not meditate on is a sin or not so much anymore.

The idea that a Christian EXCLUSIVELY waits in the HS or the Spirit of Christ to raise the yellow or red card of an infraction is very dangerous IMO. Being a mature believer I have grown sufficiently to recognize the environment for sin or not....

So how do you feel about your pastor's lack of feedback of substance about his hyper-grace stance? It is interesting to see if you can ask or probe him with some impacting questions that will eventually make him reveal his reasons.

 

[APAK]

the consequences of breaking the law is spiritual death. The penaltyu of sin is death,

so if we are under the law. we have no hope. because every time we break said law. we have a death penalty pronounced against us, and we are found guilty as charged.

How many sins are you charged with according to the law, each carrying a death penalty?

The gift of God is life. Your onlyu hope of having each death penalty against you redeemed is through Gods grace. And it is only through faith.

So please do not tell me I do not understand the law and its consequences, I understand quite well.

I also understand the law was given to lead us to christ. the law does not even come close to telling us every possible sin we could ever commit. so in that aspect. it lacks

it also does not tell us all the possible ways to break each command.

the command says do not commit adultry. so if I never have sex with another woman, i have kept the law. But if I see another woman and lust? I have broken the law.. But yet I do not know it. Because the law does not tell me that is a sin. Thats just one of many examples. That is why the law can NOT help you with maturity and help you grow in christ. At best it can give you a false idea you are actually a good person. when in reality, you are not.

We are not under the law today EG, for me and I guess yourself I would imagine! We do not base our salvation on obeying the law to the Tee anymore of course....and then no one would be saved, there are no more animal blood sacrifices of course. It is our Savior of course as we both know who ended this primitive way of making restitution for our offenses to God.

And yes the primitive Law did not know our spiritual heart only the exterior face of us....

 

[Wrangler]

It was evident. Humans breath air is not an overgeneralization, since all do.

He wrote, "Everyone wants to justify their position - right or wrong. Nobody knows the LAW. Everybody hates the very mention of it."

Does that describe you? Do you hate the very mention of the Law? Are you part of Everybody?

This is a simple thing, do we have to drag it out?

Much love!

I sense hypocrisy in your outrage, not even gracious enough to let the general statement stand without demanding unncessary qualifiers be added. 1st, you asked about @[email protected]. Now you are asking about me. Why are you making this so personal? The motivation for all this still is baffling. Then you complain about dragging it out!

The drag out, my friend, is due to the fact that not all general statements are overgeneralizations. IMO, his statement qualifies.

You claim it does not and the basis for that, when asked, is that it is self-evident. Wow! Would your sensibilites not be all twisted if he used the word "most" instead of "every" one?

 

[Episkopos]

I don't know brother, I'm just following the Lord one step at a time in my life, so I guess time will tell. It does seem as though that old nature is dying out, or else I'm dying to it, or both at the same time. We'll see.

We sin less with time...or we should...as we are getting weaned from the world of sin the way we grow out of our mother's milk as a child.

Faith, on the other hand, takes us to another place.