Sanctification is not a Process

[Wrangler]

The idea that a Christian EXCLUSIVELY waits in the HS or the Spirit of Christ to raise the yellow or red card of an infraction is very dangerous IMO.

It's not so dangerous if you don't have 1 of 2 things:

1. authority over that person
2. a deep, personal relationship

This thread's gone over the top with general statements v overgeneralizations. It's hair splitting to no edifying effect.

At work, we are trying to commonize things. Nearly every suggestion is shot down due to some exception or other. So, I've given the 80-20 rule many, MANY times now, allowing for exceptions while achieving some (80%) commonization. When there is a need to repeat it, I simply ask if I have to repeat the 80-20 rule. The same thing with general statements.

So how do you feel about your pastor's lack of feedback of substance about his hyper-grace stance? It is interesting to see if you can ask or probe him with some impacting questions that will eventually make him reveal his reasons.

Still processing. I doubt it will get anywhere but hurt the relationship.

On almost all subjects, most people never admit to being wrong about anything. (Hopefully, that is sufficiently qualified to not be taken to task for making general observations)

I would have left that church years ago if it were not for my wife's deep need for it. So, I try to make the most of it.

 

[APAK]

Why are you using such loaded language?

I'm out.

Much love!

marks, hitting and running again over what, really?! Is it worth it..? You know as anyone, we are responsible for our answers to posts, even if they are not understood or come out right the first time. I would have given much more credit to the voice in the choir loft. And as he replied, you should have really read all the way through his post. I saw this before he responded and I totally agree with him and even the comments of @Wrangler. Take it and shed it, let it go and go on.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We sin less with time...or we should...as we are getting weaned from the world of sin the way we grow out of our mother's milk as a child.

Faith, on the other hand, takes us to another place.

ah yes, Progressive sanctification at work. God working in us as we grow. and the more we grow. the more we look to things above and sin less

 

[ChristisGod]

ah yes, Progressive sanctification at work. God working in us as we grow. and the more we grow. the more we look to things above and sin less

but he denied sanctification is a process in the life of a believer. just another contradiction.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

but he denied sanctification is a process in the life of a believer. just another contradiction.

Thats the point

He deny's it. But yet if you look. He preaches it..

 

[marks]

Is it worth it..?

I guess this really is the question then.

Loaded language is, simply put, manipulative. This really gets under your skin, doesn't it? Striking a nerve? Those things were written solely to be quick examples of loaded language.

Same with overgeneralizations. Every single one of you do it! Everybody is always giving overgeneralizations! And unless they are actually true, like all mammals breath, then they are false, simply stated. Someone who's post contains numerous examples of both of these sorts of statements is going to catch my eye for having written so many false and manipulative statements.

If I "poke the bear", what do I find? Just question someone on one or two of these, and see what the response is. I don't claim to know everyone here. Maybe it's just sloppy communication style, there's a lot of that. I value precision, that's one of the reasons I love Koine Greek so much. And maybe it's something else.

So I give a little "handshake" before delving too far in, just to get a better sense of the writer. Do they acknowledge the simple reality that not everyone hates the mention of the Law? Or do they double down, and increase the loaded language?

And here you see the results.

And I don't mind metacommunication, IF it's done well. It's very useful, IF it's done well.

Much love!

@Wrangler

 

[Lizbeth]

My non-dominational congregation recently admitted to being a hyper-grace church. They don’t believe it is their job to point out sins. Rather, they believe it is the job of the Holy Spirit to convict people of their sin.

Regarding the law & OT, the say it is good for learning history but not application. I’ve written to the pastor pointing out the ONGOING applicability of the law. As I see it, it remains necessary training wheels of behavior until people grow sufficiently in Christ.

That is, many deceive themselves as acting in love but their actions betray them. Our confidence in the fact is revealed ONLY by the ONGOING applicability of the law.

The retired pastor strongly disagreed. No coherent reason was given as far as I could tell.

I hope your church sees their job as preaching and hearing the whole word of God and not just the easy to digest parts.

2Ti 3:16

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

Eph 5:26

That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word

(And who doesn’t need a little scrubbing now and then, not to mention having our feet washed periodically, which Jesus said if we don't allow this He will have no part of us.)

 

[Episkopos]

ah yes, Progressive sanctification at work. God working in us as we grow. and the more we grow. the more we look to things above and sin less

Becoming LESS of an active sinner does not mean we are getting more holy. If you knew what holiness was you wouldn't say such things.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Becoming LESS of an active sinner does not mean we are getting more holy. If you knew what holiness was you wouldn't say such things.

This just shows you do not know what holiness is

If you think you can be more holy while still in sin. then you have major issues.

True holiness is being totally christlike. That would be without sin. That will happen. When our salvation is revealed. We will be like him.

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

We will be like him WHEN HE APPEARS.

don;t fool ourselves into thinking we will be exactly as he is before then, because until then, we still have the flesh..

 

[Episkopos]

This just shows you do not know what holiness is

If you think you can be more holy while still in sin. then you have major issues.

True holiness is being totally christlike. That would be without sin. That will happen. When our salvation is revealed. We will be like him.

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

We will be like him WHEN HE APPEARS.

don;t fool ourselves into thinking we will be exactly as he is before then, because until then, we still have the flesh..

Like Him in body. But you are denying grace here. You are denying the gospel.


You put everything into an afterlife...so you can never attain anything in this life.

You religion is vain.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Like Him in body. But you are denying grace here. You are denying the gospel.


You put everything into an afterlife...so you can never attain anything in this life.

You religion is vain.

I am not denying Grace

we need grace BECAUSE we are not yet Holy

If we were holy we would not need grace

I just gave you what the word says. I can again a lot in this life. I will continue to run the race.

But if I or anyone else thinks I will be like Christ in perfection. We are fooling ourself

My religion as you call it has victory.. Your religion has people who do Not go to church, and has never walked with God. Before you attack mine, you better tend to your flock and find out why they are failing to have victory.

 

[ChristisGod]

Like Him in body. But you are denying grace here. You are denying the gospel.


You put everything into an afterlife...so you can never attain anything in this life.

You religion is vain.

Speaking of like Him in body does Jesus still have a human body ? yes or no

And you put everything in this life so you can never attain anything in the afterlife.

As you like to say: your religion is vain.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Nhisname]

We used to have a term "Gloriously Saved", we'd use it when we would see someone transformed in their rebirth. My friend Alex was a heroin addict, had been for years, and was coming to the end of that process. It was killing him. And he knew it, but couldn't stop.

One day he was getting a hamburger, and saw a church across the street, and went inside. He heard the Gospel, and literally climbed over the tops of the seats to get to the front. He was Gloriously Saved! His addiction as gone. His mind was whole. And he began to serve, and he never relapsed. That was years ago, now he's a fixture in the church.

God did that, sovereignly. Alex didn't know anything. God just did it.

Others, He let's wander for years, working through things. I can't explain the difference, His ways are too high for me. But I know that He can do anything, and does do all sorts of things, knowing what is right for each of us.

Much love!

What a wonderful testimony! So happy for your friend!

 

[APAK]

You are assuming things of me that you don't know. Do you realize this? Will my pointing it out be the reason for someone claiming I'm offended? Or could it be that I feel like if I call attention to your mistatement, that you might back track a bit and come to correct conclusions?

Don't we value correct conclusions? Are we so enamoured with someone's doctrinal statement that we don't care if their post contains many false statements, and emotionally charged language? Stepping over bounderies language? Does that really enhance a discussion?

Or does this kind of writing feed so much of the dissention here?

And I've pointed it out! How dare I!

Yes? No?

Much love!

I think rjp @[email protected] and @Wrangler already answered you don't you think. That should be sufficient and easily understood. Let's move on. I am anyway...Great day and weekend

Refer to Sanctification is not a Process and Sanctification is not a Process

 

[Wrangler]

But what kind of conversation can you have in these conditions?

Friend, you are projecting. @APAK called it hit and run. If you don’t want to see the log in your eye, OK.

Much Love!

 

[Wrangler]

In what way? Show me the words that you think are my projection?

this doesn't edify.

@APAK invited you to review the various exchanges. There is a ‘hit and run’ MO in various posts of yours. It’s plain to see IF you have the courage to face the passive aggressiveness within.

Much Love!

 

[marks]

the consequences of breaking the law is spiritual death. The penaltyu of sin is death,

so if we are under the law. we have no hope. because every time we break said law. we have a death penalty pronounced against us, and we are found guilty as charged.

How many sins are you charged with according to the law, each carrying a death penalty?

The gift of God is life. Your onlyu hope of having each death penalty against you redeemed is through Gods grace. And it is only through faith.

So please do not tell me I do not understand the law and its consequences, I understand quite well.

I also understand the law was given to lead us to christ. the law does not even come close to telling us every possible sin we could ever commit. so in that aspect. it lacks

it also does not tell us all the possible ways to break each command.

the command says do not commit adultry. so if I never have sex with another woman, i have kept the law. But if I see another woman and lust? I have broken the law.. But yet I do not know it. Because the law does not tell me that is a sin. Thats just one of many examples. That is why the law can NOT help you with maturity and help you grow in christ. At best it can give you a false idea you are actually a good person. when in reality, you are not.

Yes, the commands to trust Jesus and love others are a much more comprehensive law.

Much love!

 

[[email protected]]

Matt 23: 37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

1 John 4: 7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

1 John 4: 19 - We love Him because He first loved us.

The law of love.

Love does not come from self. It comes from God. Thats why a non believer who has not been born of God can do Good. Because in them, there is no true perfect love to share..

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling!" (Matthew 23:37)

Your quote of scripture is incorrect. Matthew 23:37 quotes Jesus' lament over the religious wickedness practiced by the Jews of Jerusalem (where the temple was located). It does not mention the LAW.

The much maligned pharisees of Jesus' day had created and supported religious traditions that were used to subvert the LAW of Moses. Because they had created these traditions they believed they were divinely appointed to bind their people to them. They were not. Neither are those that emulate their deviant abuse of the LAW in the post-modern church of today.

The post-modern church today is GUILTY of creating its own traditions, as the pharisees did before them, so as to perpetuate their own PERPETUAL INDULGENCES.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

There is no such thing as the law of love. What is commonly referred to and what you presume is the law of love is little more than Works of Righteousness. Indeed it isn't of God because in most post-modern churches that embrace this heresy even the Name of God is ignored or deliberately misrepresented. The post-modern church has deliberately misquoted both the spirit and the letter of the first 2 commandments.

Does your 'law of love' permit Adultery? Does it permit lying, cheating, stealing and murder of innocents? If it does it isn't of God. If it doesn't then you must underscore and obey the LAW of Moses. Which is it? LAW or no LAW?

"I did not come to abolish the LAW. I came to fulfill it." (Jesus as quoted by Matt 5:17)

Please do NOT respond with some bogus version of the meaning of 'fulfillment' when the LAW to which it refers isn't understood fully. Most who attempt to do that get it real wrong. If this is done I will respond in kind, but not kindly.

The church today is afflicted with what some call Hyper-Grace. This is a form of LICENTIOUSNESS that denies the LAW of Moses and assumes God will smile upon and bless any filthy thing we choose to put our hands upon.

You 'law of love' is often used to excuse all manner of SIN and debauchery. BEWARE, God isn't a fool and will punish those who disobey and disrespect His LAW.

If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume all adversaries. (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Fear God and obey Him. This is the FIRST commandment.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Johann]

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling!" (Matthew 23:37)

Your quote of scripture is incorrect. Matthew 23:37 quotes Jesus' lament over the religious wickedness practiced by the Jews of Jerusalem (where the temple was located). It does not mention the LAW.

The much maligned pharisees of Jesus' day had created and supported religious traditions that were used to subvert the LAW of Moses. Because they had created these traditions they believed they were divinely appointed to bind their people to them. They were not. Neither are those that emulate their deviant abuse of the LAW in the post-modern church of today.

The post-modern church today is GUILTY of creating its own traditions, as the pharisees did before them, so as to perpetuate their own PERPETUAL INDULGENCES.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

There is no such thing as the law of love. What is commonly referred to and what you presume is the law of love is little more than Works of Righteousness. Indeed it isn't of God because in most post-modern churches that embrace this heresy even the Name of God is ignored or deliberately misrepresented. The post-modern church has deliberately misquoted both the spirit and the letter of the first 2 commandments.

Does your 'law of love' permit Adultery? Does it permit lying, cheating, stealing and murder of innocents? If it does it isn't of God. If it doesn't then you must underscore and obey the LAW of Moses. Which is it? LAW or no LAW?

"I did not come to abolish the LAW. I came to fulfill it." (Jesus as quoted by Matt 5:17)

Please do NOT respond with some bogus version of the meaning of 'fulfillment' when the LAW to which it refers isn't understood fully. Most who attempt to do that get it real wrong. If this is done I will respond in kind, but not kindly.

The church today is afflicted with what some call Hyper-Grace. This is a form of LICENTIOUSNESS that denies the LAW of Moses and assumes God will smile upon and bless any filthy thing we choose to put our hands upon.

You 'law of love' is often used to excuse all manner of SIN and debauchery. BEWARE, God isn't a fool and will punish those who disobey and disrespect His LAW.

If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume all adversaries. (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Fear God and obey Him. This is the FIRST commandment.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

I believe @Eternally Grateful was posting pure Scripture--and you say it is wrong or incorrect?

 

[Episkopos]

I believe @Eternally Grateful was posting pure Scripture--and you say it is wrong or incorrect?

Pure scripture? It's only pure when it is bent to your religious purposes? Your understanding is pure malarkey. Listen to others and learn something.