Jesus said Satan was a murderer from the beginning. It seems that God created Satan to be the force of evil in this world for our ultimate benefit.
True or False, Satan is doing exactly what God intended him to do.
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I would use "necessary" rather than negative but I agree that, how can we fully appreciate the light unless we have experienced the dark?
God is a creator. So are we. My guess is that we will become creators with God. Maybe we too will be called to visit worlds as Jesus did in ours. Who knows?
Aunty Jane
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I would say that rather than to “cause” things to happen, God “allows” things to happen for the outworking of his purpose.....the very reason why he created humans and placed them on a carefully prepared planet at the start of their existence.
All of God’s intelligent creatures have free will, otherwise what happened in Eden would never have taken place.
Angels never had their free will tested until the creation of lower carnal creatures (humans) in whom one particular angel saw an opportunity to step outside of his assignment. The Bible tells us that he was a “covering cherub” in the garden of Eden...a position of responsibility given to him by his Creator. Free will however, is never completely free. It is given only within the parameters set by The Universal Sovereign.
Satan was the first one to step outside of those parameters by abusing his free will.....so why did he do so?
Ezekiel tell us that this angel was once a magnificent creature who entertained wrong desires. (James 1:13-15; Ezekiel 28:13:17) He desired worship for himself and saw an opportunity to have lower creatures see him as a god. He couldn’t force them to worship him, but he could get them to abandon the worship of their Creator if he tempted them with something that appeared to be better.....Eve was an easy target...she was new and inexperience and what he said to her “thoroughly deceived” her.
“For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived and became a transgressor.” (1 Tim 2:13-14)
Adam was now faced with a dilemma.....he was not deceived, which made his choice wilful and deliberate. Satan carefully calculated his actions to place Adam in a situation where his loyalties would be divided. He had to choose between remaining loyal to his God, or joining his wife in rebellion...they both knew the penalty, but only Eve was convinced that it wouldn’t apply as the devil told her...”you surely will not die”.
Jehovah could have executed the rebels then and there, and simply started again, but the issues that the devil raised regarding God’s Sovereignty had to be settled once and for all......was God a liar? Did he have the right to set the limits that he did? Did he have the best interests of his children at heart? Was he withholding something beneficial from them?
Unless these issues were answered in a thoroughly convincing manner, nothing would stop other free willed angels from doing the same thing down the track. As we see, Satan managed to get many other angels to rebel with him. Jehovah did not stop them even though he could, because all that would have proven was that he was more powerful. Satan never challenged Jehovah’s power....he challenged his right to exercise his Sovereignty over his free willed creatures....to set reasonable limits for their own good....and always beneficial.
So God did not “create” the devil....satan created himself.
God did not “cause” the devil to sin, because he exercised his free will....but in a wrong way. What God did was to use this rebellion to implement an object lesson within the timeframe he set for the 7th day of Genesis.
Understanding that these creative “days” were not 24 hour periods, allows us to see where we are in the stream of time. The word “day” in Hebrew has different meanings. It can mean an undetermined length of time, meaning that the thousands or even millions of earth years that science claims for the age of ancient creatures could be more accurate than most YEC Bible believers have been led to believe.
The 7th day was allotted for God to “rest” only from his creative works, (John 5:17) but certainly not from observing and directing his faithful ones in a world that he handed over to the (wannabe) “god” they chose to obey. (Luke 4:5,6; 2 Cor 4:3-4) God has been testing all humanity to see who will remain faithful under test and who will succumb to the devil’s many deceptions. We have the Bible and God’s spirit to guide us, but the devil is a mimic, so we have to keep our wits about us. His lies have been misleading humankind for thousands of years.
By allowing the devil to do his best, Jehovah tests all of his children, both in heaven and on earth. By the end of the 7th day, (for which Genesis provides no conclusion) God will have dealt with this rebellion in a way that will prevent it from ever happening again. All among redeemed mankind who pass the final test, will then begin to live the life that God purposed for all of us in the first place......tried and tested in all respects, God can conclude the 7the day just as he concluded the 6th.....”everything was very good”.
To understand the end...you have to go back to the beginning.
Space_Karen
Well-Known Member
Where?
Satan was God's most powerful angel.
Who fell to darkness and led a rebellion against heaven with 1/3rd of the angels.
Was never dark from day 1.
John 8:44
44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
I used to think that Lucifer transformed into Satan but then another showed me this verse and so I'm not sure that they're the same entities. In other words, I don't know but Jesus himself said that "the devil" (Satan, right?) was a murderer from the beginning.
On another note, the Bible tells us that a "good" tree cannot produce bad fruit. Can we then apply that to God creating Satan and glean that Satan is actually not inherently evil but is only doing what God assigned him to do? In the end, I'm most confident that Satan will be purified in the Lake of Fire (God) and that he too will join the rest of us in God's kingdom.
face2face
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Dear Aunty Jane,
I have heard this false version of God and how He operates many times over the years. However, there simply is no truth in it and it is contradicted by many scriptures. Your understanding comes from the deceptions of Satan which are used to support the false beliefs of the apostate church.
Firstly, God never just "allows" things to happen. Scripture says that He is the cause of all things which happen:
Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
1Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
When you contend that God "allows" things to happen, then you are saying that things have happened that God did not intend or desire to happen. This goes against the very heart of God's power and sovereignty.
God is not like mankind. God works all things after the counsel of His own "will" (Eph 1:11). He leaves nothing to chance or to mankind's supposed "free will" abilities. God causes all things to happen just has He has planned.
God even created Satan to be just as he is:
Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
Ecc 7:13 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?
God purposely created Satan to be mankind's destroyer so that mankind would have an experience of evil.
Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Here is an example of how God uses Satan:
2 Sam 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
So how did God move David to number Israel and Judah? He used Satan for that purpose:
1 Chron 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
You said:
Adam was now faced with a dilemma.....he was not deceived, which made his choice willful and deliberate. Satan carefully calculated his actions to place Adam in a situation where his loyalties would be divided. He had to choose between remaining loyal to his God, or joining his wife in rebellion...they both knew the penalty, but only Eve was convinced that it wouldn’t apply as the devil told her...”you surely will not die”.
Eve is a spiritual symbol for mankind's carnal nature and Adam is a spiritual symbol for the head (mind).
ADAM + EVE = ONE FLESH
MIND + CARNAL NATURE = ONE FLESH
For that reason, God caused Satan to deceive Eve and from Eve's deception, Adam sinned because he wanted to please his wife:
1Cor 7:33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.
With this sin, Adam and Eve spiritually died and lost their relationship with Christ. This is how Satan (the waster) destroys mankind.
Through Satan's deception of Eve (mankind's carnal nature), Satan destroyed all of mankind. However, Satan does not stop there. When Christ gives an unbeliever the Holy Spirit of Promise (the Early Rain, the earnest amount, Eph 1:13-14), Satan will quickly come to that believer and deceive them through their carnal nature (just as Adam and Eve "typed"). From Satan's deception, the believer will commit the sin that leads to death (mixing works with faith). And just like he did with Adam and Eve, Satan again spiritually kills the person. This spiritual death happens to all the Elect shortly after they are called out from the world. For this reason, the Latter Rain (the full payment) is necessary for salvation.
These verses apply to the spiritual death of the saints:
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
You said:
The 7th day was allotted for God to “rest” only from his creative works, (John 5:17) but certainly not from observing and directing his faithful ones in a world that he handed over to the (wannabe) “god” they chose to obey. (Luke 4:5,6; 2 Cor 4:3-4) God has been testing all humanity to see who will remain faithful under test and who will succumb to the devil’s many deceptions. We have the Bible and God’s spirit to guide us, but the devil is a mimic, so we have to keep our wits about us. His lies have been misleading humankind for thousands of years.
God rested for the literal 24 hour period following the six days of creation. Since that time, God and Christ have been working and causing all things to happen just as they have determined beforehand.
John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
It is from the works of God that all things happen within this creation, not just the things within believers.
Also, God is not "testing" mankind to see who will remain faithful to him. All mankind from birth is not faithful. They do not need to be tested.
Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Even after a person receives the Holy Spirit of Promise and receives a measure of faith, Satan will come to the believer and deceive them 100% of the time (Mat 12:43-45 & the parable of the wheat and the tares). Satan's deceptions are very powerful and they come via the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ within each new believer:
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
After the spirit of anti-Christ came into the church near the end of the Apostles' ministries, none of the Elect have been spared from experiencing this spiritual death.
Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Since that time, the churches which the Apostles started all became apostate and controlled by Satan via the spirit of anti-Christ. This spirit causes all "called out" believers to believe the "lie" that Satan is Christ.
2Cor 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Satan's ministers rule from within the churches of this world. And since God causes all things to happen, this happens by God's direction.
Joe
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Dear Patrick1966,
Yes, Satan and the fallen angels will be saved just like all mankind will be, otherwise this verse below would not be true:
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Joe
The ECT proponents think that God is a puny, bumbling, incapable, angry, vengeful, and unforgiving being. They reject the biblical description of God.
1 John 4:7-14
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
1 John 4:7-14
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
face2face
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It's an impossible doctrine to find evidence the idea of a supernatural evil being. No origin story you see.
Aunty Jane
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God would never have inflicted such pain and suffering on his children on purpose.....everything he gave them at the beginning was out of his generosity and love. Paradise is where he planned for them to enjoy the life he gave them.
Satan was self-created......he rebelled by failing to rein in his inappropriate desire. (James 1:13-15)
Free will had to be exercised within the limits that God had set. But once sin was in the world, God used it to demonstrate what happens when we try to do things our way instead of obeying his instructions.
He stepped out of the picture and allowed us all to experience life as we would choose.....to follow the world where satan rules....or to follow Christ which was the “cramped and narrow road”.
Our Creator has never left us, but we have left him in so many ways....
So you think that Satan fooled God? I don't.
God uses Satan to torment (test) us. How can we fully appreciate the light if we haven't expected the dark?
A good tree cannot produce bad fruit. Satan is God's fruit doing what must be done for our spiritual development.
Space_Karen
Well-Known Member
Yes.
Lucifer must have changed names after the fall.
He couldn't have been created evil or he would remain innocent and blameless. Which would exempt him from the lake of fire and hell.
It's definitely an interesting subject, but I'm already up to my neck in other theological arguments at the moment.
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