Why Hell is not a place of eternal conscious torment.

[Bible Highlighter]

@Michiah-Imla

Great Points on Conditional Immorality:

1. The Tree in the Garden (See here).
2. Revelation 21:8 says that the Lake of Fire is the Second Death. The Second Death is related to the First Death. But in ECT this is not the case; They are not really related.
3. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body..." (Matthew 10:28). In this verse Jesus compares to not be afraid of those who kill (destroy) the body, but be afraid of the One (Jesus) who can destroy the soul. The parallel is destroyed in ECT.
4. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy" (James 4:12). Save AND DESTROY. But in ECT, the word “destroy” does not really mean, “destroy.”
5. "...who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Tim 1:10). In ECT, there is no immortality through the gospel. Everyone is either already immortal or they will be immortal regardless of the gospel.
6. Jesus (God) alone has immortality-anyone else becomes immortal only as a result of God's gracious gift (1 Timothy 6:16, Romans 2:7). Yet, in ECT this is not the case.
7. To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: (Romans 2:7). Yet, in ECT, Why are we told to seek after eternal life if everyone is already going to live eternally?
8. Jude 1:7 - eternal fire. Just because the fire is “eternal fire” does that mean Sodom and Gomorrha is still burning today? Certainly not. But ECT Proponents just brush this truth aside and put their fingers in their ears and move on (With them not really dealing with the truth).
9. Hebrews 6:2 says there is an “eternal judgment.” Does that mean that God is going to judging saved and unsaved for a finite amount of people for all eternity? Surely not. So then to say that “everlasting” (or eternal) punishment must be interpreted in the same way is silly (Especially when there are Conditional Immortality verses that ECT proponents love to ignore or twist).
10. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. (John 6:51). Again, in ECT, these words by our Lord Jesus do not really mean anything. Why should we care if we live forever if everyone is going to live forever anyways? It doesn’t make any sense.
11. Whose end is destruction, (Philippians 3:19). Yet, in ECT, they don’t believe the the wicked will have an end that is destruction.
12. 2 Thessalonians 1:9-Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction. In ECT, they don’t believe this word “destruction” is to be read literally. They somehow favor a God who punishes people way beyond what the crime calls for.
13. Hebrews 10:39-But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition. (Greek: perdion means “destruction”).
14. , "He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal." John 12:25. Again, how can one really lose his life if they live eternally in conscious torment in fire? Technically their life is not lost in ECT.
15. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23). In ECT, death is not really the wages of sin because they will live forever. In ECT, eternal life is not really a gift of eternal life because everyone will have eternal life regardless of whether they receive the gift of eternal life or not. So more twisting or ignoring of Scripture is involved if one believes in ECT.

How would you address these?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

the second death.

The “second death” is eternal torments in the lake of fire. The scriptures are CLEAR on this.

What’s so difficult about this for you to understand?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The “second death” is eternal torments in the lake of fire. The scriptures are CLEAR on this.

What’s so difficult about this for you to understand?

But you don't believe the second death is really related to the first death in a literal way. The first death is literal, and the second one is metaphorical. That is not really a sequel.

Also, post the verses whereby you think the lake of fire is eternal torment.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Great Points on Conditional Immorality

All these points are summed up here:

“…shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” (Revelation 20:10)

Why are you lowering the severity of the punishing of the wicked?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

All these points are summed up here:

“…shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” (Revelation 20:10)

Why are you lowering the severity of the punishing of the wicked?

Source:

The American Heritage Dictionary entry: ever

The American Heritage Dictionary entry: ever

ahdictionary.com

The third definition listed above can define "ever" as "To a great extent or degree."

“…shall be tormented day and night for ever [a great extent] and ever [degree].” (Revelation 20:10)​

Also, you pointed me to Scripture to explain something. That's great. But will you listen if I do the same to explain Revelation 20:10?

The words "night and day" and "for ever and ever" are words taken from Isaiah 34:10.

Isaiah 34:10

"It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever."​

This is talking about a city in Edom. The burning pitch will not be quenched night and day, and the smoke of that city will go up forever.

We see a similar thing involving the city of Mystery Babylon.

"...And her smoke rose up for ever and ever." (Revelation 19:3).​

Now, you must believe that these cities will have their smoke go up for eternity. I am fine with that idea initially but this sets up a contradiction in Scripture if we are to look at the whole counsel of God's Word.

How so?

Well, you are a King James Bible believer like me. We both appreciate the fact that Jesus said, "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." (Matthew 24:35).

This means Earth will pass away someday, This truth is confirmed in Revelation 22:1 which says, "...and the first earth were passed away;..."

So how can a city in Edom (Bozrah) and the city of Mystery Babylon both put out smoke for all eternity if the Earth that they reside on passes away? It makes no sense. It's just not possible. So we must conclude that these words from Isaiah 34:10 are symbolic of destruction.

 

[Patrick1966]

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Michiah-Imla

My point about Isaiah 34:10 is similar to Numbers 15:15. The same idea is expressed in Numbers 15:15 (in a recent post I provided to Jack) in post #693. Please refer back to that post and give me a reply to that, as well.

Thank you, and may God bless you.

 

[Keiw]

Another Kindom Hall victim? Have you read the NWT? It says you're wrong.

Yes i have read it a few x It does not say i am wrong.

 

[Keiw]

While I am strongly against ECT, I am not so sure the Bible would condemn a person for holding to Eternal Torment. I think most are just following the crowd and they don’t realize the implications of such a belief. I would need a verse or passage that would explictly teach that a person holding to eternal torment is not saved or never knew God. I used to believe in ECT, but I would not say I was unsaved during the time I believed in it. I was ignorant of the problems of ECT until I made the switch to Conditional Immortality.

The only worship God accepts is in spirit and truth-John 4:22-24--One cannot be teaching lies about him and expect anything good to come of it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The only worship God accepts is in spirit and truth-John 4:22-24--One cannot be teaching lies about him and expect anything good to come of it.

Do you believe that if Christians do not believe in the Nephilim, they are not saved?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes i have read it a few x It does not say i am wrong.

I'm not sure I could ever read a heretical translation like that unless I were trying to do an extensive write-up on exposing the JW religion.

Are you a Jehovah's Witness?
Do you believe in the Trinity?
Do you believe in Conditional Immortality or something else regarding the topic of the Lake of Fire?

 

[Keiw]

Do you believe that if Christians do not believe in the Nephilim, they are not saved?

The bible teaches the Nephlim were real. God inspired those words, thus if one says the opposite, then they stand in opposition to Gods truth.

 

[Keiw]

I'm not sure I could ever read a heretical translation like that unless I were trying to do an extensive write-up on exposing the JW religion.

Are you a Jehovah's Witness?
Do you believe in the Trinity?
Do you believe in Conditional Immortality or something else regarding the topic of the Lake of Fire?

Hard to expose the religion that has the teachings of Jesus and facts of true God worship history backing them. The darkness try's over and over and fails.
1) yes
2)no
3)There is no life in death.

 

[Patrick1966]

The bible teaches the Nephlim were real. God inspired those words, thus if one says the opposite, then they stand in opposition to Gods truth.

If one believes that the story of "Adam & Eve" is an allegory describing all of early mankind and NOT literally just "Adam & Eve", are they "standing in opposition to God's truth"?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

This is talking about the city of Edom.

It’s talking about all nations:

“Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.” (Isaiah 34:1)

This whole chapter describes the final destination of the wicked. The lake of fire is described in a different way here using temporal things.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

If one believes that the story of "Adam & Eve" is an allegory describing all of early mankind

are they "standing in opposition to God's truth"?

Yes.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hard to expose the religion that has the teachings of Jesus and facts of true God worship history backing them. The darkness try's over and over and fails.
1) yes
2)no
3)There is no life in death.

And now I understand why you speak in extremes on minor issues (like whether or not a believer holds to the existence of the Nephilim).

I believe beyond all shadow of a doubt that the Jehovah's Witness religion is false (obviously).
Here are my reasons why.

Reasons why the Jehovah’s Witness religion is false (Despite my love for them as human beings)

Reasons why the Jehovah’s Witness religion is false (Despite my love for them as human beings and my desire to see them saved). #1. Jehovah’s Witnesses religion came about during the time period of other false religions in the latter half of the 19th century. It is odd that other religions...

www.christianityboard.com

JW's may have stumbled upon a nugget of truth in the Bible involving Conditional Immortality, but that does not mean they are not overall in error and need to seek forgiveness of their sins with Jesus Christ and accept Him as their Savior (by way of prayer).

Anyways, take no offense, but I strive not to speak with JW's, Mormons, liberals, Universalists, etcetera. Some false beliefs are so far extreme in error that most discussions are useless. Therefore, prayer is the main thing that will truly help them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It’s talking about all nations:

“Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.” (Isaiah 34:1)

This whole chapter describes the final destination of the wicked. The lake of fire is described in a different way here using temporal things.

Weirsbe's Commentary:

"While Isaiah focused especially on Edom (Isa. 34:5–6), he was using that proud nation as an example of what God would do to all the Gentile nations during the day of the Lord.​

​

Bozrah was an important city in Edom; the name means “grape-gathering” (see Isa. 63:1–8). God sees His enemies as animals: rams, goats, lambs, oxen, and bulls to be sacrificed, along with the fat (Lev. 3:9–11). These nations sacrificed the Jews, so God used them for sacrifices."​

Note: The King James Bible says "Idumea" for "Edom" at this point in Scripture.

 

[Keiw]

If one believes that the story of "Adam & Eve" is an allegory describing all of early mankind and NOT literally just "Adam & Eve", are they "standing in opposition to God's truth"?

Adam and Eve is literal. So yes one would be standing in opposition.

 

[Keiw]

And now I understand why you speak in extremes on minor issues (like whether or not a believer holds to the existence of the Nephilim).

I believe beyond all shadow of a doubt that the Jehovah's Witness religion is false (obviously).
Here are my reasons why.

Reasons why the Jehovah’s Witness religion is false (Despite my love for them as human beings)

Reasons why the Jehovah’s Witness religion is false (Despite my love for them as human beings and my desire to see them saved). #1. Jehovah’s Witnesses religion came about during the time period of other false religions in the latter half of the 19th century. It is odd that other religions...

www.christianityboard.com

JW's may have stumbled upon a nugget of truth in the Bible involving Conditional Immortality, but that does not mean they are not overall in error and need to seek forgiveness of their sins with Jesus Christ and accept Him as their Savior (by way of prayer).

Anyways, take no offense, but I strive not to speak with JW's, Mormons, liberals, Universalists, etcetera. Some false beliefs are so far extreme in error that most discussions are useless. Therefore, prayer is the main thing that will truly help them.

I have studied all sides carefully. I studied true God worship history and studied Jesus carefully since 1961--The JW,s are correct-0 doubt in all creation.
Trinity translations are altered, and have errors translated in to fit false council teachings from centuries ago.