Keiw
Well-Known Member
I have read them, they show no error i have made. You show me, then i will show you its you who is in error.
Why Hell is not a place of eternal conscious torment.
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Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
I believe hell is a literal place of torment and I believe the rich man when he said, “I am tormented in this flame.” (Luke 16:24).
I just believe the Scriptures also teach that after the Judgment, the Lake of Fire will be a place of either immediate or eventual annihillation or destruction of the wicked (Which is literally a death or second death).
This is called “Dualistic Conditional Immortality” (Which is different than Traditional Conditional Immortality). Most Conditional Immortality Christians believe that hell is a fictional parable and that is wrong in my opinion. Hell is a very real place and it’s a place of torment. But God is not unjust in that he will torture people alive for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes. That woud be unfair justice, but people cannot see the forest from the trees with the Bible sometimes. They believe with their head and not with their heart. They believe dumb things like God telling telling Hosea to marry a prostitute (When in reality God was telling Hosea to find a woman to marry among a people who were in a land full of idolatry or idol statue worship).
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@Bible Highlighter
I'm curious. Sorry if you've already addressed this point as you likely have (you are quite thorough) but what do you make of the story of the rich man and Lazarus? Why do you think it does not suggest ECT? When Father Abraham replies to the rich man, it seems to suggest that the chasm or fixment is permanent, (suggesting to me ECT) not temporary. Thanks
I'm curious. Sorry if you've already addressed this point as you likely have (you are quite thorough) but what do you make of the story of the rich man and Lazarus? Why do you think it does not suggest ECT? When Father Abraham replies to the rich man, it seems to suggest that the chasm or fixment is permanent, (suggesting to me ECT) not temporary. Thanks
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
First, thank you for the compliment on my being thorough. However, may the Lord Jesus Christ receive all the glory for any good God has done in my life and will continue to do to His mercy and grace. May we be like the 24 elders who cast their crowns down before Him.
Second, I see several key takeaways from the real-life story of Lazarus and the Rich man in Hades (i.e., hell or the place of torments).
#1. The real story is a warning to sinful men (Whether believers or unbelievers) to live for God and do what is good and right (like helping the poor) with the love of Christ. The rich man no doubt regretted not helping Lazarus because of his unloving actions in his life. Granted, good works alone without God’s grace will not save us, but a lack of certain loving actions (i.e., disobedience to the Lord’s commands) will show that Christ does not abide in us if we do not love with our actions (after His grace saves us). I would recommend the Christian film called “Polycarp” (If you have not seen it) (Note: You can check the trailer and my other favorite Christian films in this thread here). It really helps to show the love of Christ that Christians most likely had during the early church (When they were being persecuted for Jesus). The film speaks of God’s grace (Which is the central focus and heart of our loving with our actions - which is what the rich man failed to do). Grace gives us the ability to do the work (1 Corinthians 15:10). Grace is what moved the woman to anoint Jesus‘ feet with her tears (i.e., her loving actions).
#2. The real-life story (Which takes place after the rich man dies) puts the fear of God in men to accept the Lord and live for Him, letting them know that there is a place of fiery punishment. This fear is clearly demonstrated in the story in the fact that the rich man said, “I am tormented in this flame.” (Luke 16:24), and in the fact that he desired to warn his brothers of this horrible place of torments (Luke 16:27-31). The rich man was clearly in torments (Luke 16:23), and he desired just a very small fraction of water to cool his tongue, for the flame tormented him. So his tongue may have been hot and or dry due to the flame. However, it is interesting or curious as to why the rich man was not asking for buckets of water to cool him, though (I speak more about this in my first post of this thread here if you are interested). Anyways, let men tremble at the fear of the Lord and repent because of this real-life story (Which is not a fictional story or generic nameless parable).
#3. The story illustrates a parallel for our lives or all men’s lives. We must suffer for Christ. For all who live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. Abraham pointed out how the rich man received good things in his life, and he is now tormented (receiving bad things), and Lazarus, who suffered bad things, now receives good things. So it’s a lesson for us to suffer for Jesus.
#4. The rich man goes nameless, while the poor man is named. This suggests that Lazarus (who had a name) was in the Book of Life, while the rich man (who went nameless) in the narrative did not have his name in the Lamb’s Book of Life.
#5. A person can see miraculous things and still not believe in God and or His Word. The story ends with Abraham telling the rich man that his brothers would not believe him even if he rose from the dead to tell them about the place of torments he was in. It is ultimately God’s Word whereby they need to truly first believe. Miracles or special revelations is not what is going to convince a person to believe truly. First, we need to believe God’s words, which are sufficient and powerful enough to touch men’s hearts and change them through God’s working and Spirit. For God’s words are like a hammer, and they are like fire (melting the hearts of men) (See: Jeremiah 23:29). In fact, faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). God seeks for us to have faith in Him; For without faith, it is impossible to please Him.
Hell (Hades or the Place of Torments) is cast into the Lake of Fire.
Revelation 20:14
“And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.”
But notice something in this verse above?
“Death” is ALSO cast into the Lake of Fire. Why is this important?
Well, Scripture says the last enemy to be destroyed is death.
”The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.” (1 Corinthians 15:26).
So when is death destroyed?
When it is cast into the Lake of Fire. Why? Because Revelation 20:14 calls the Lake of Fire as being called “the second death.”
Why is it called the SECOND death?
Because it is related to the first death (whereby men’s physical bodies perish).
This is the illustration or parallel of the SECOND death. It’s why it can be called “the second death.”
If the second death were just a metaphor (as ECT teaches), it would not be a sequel to the first death.
In addition, 1 Corinthians 15:26 says the LAST ENEMY to be destroyed is death.
So this suggests that there are other enemies of God that need to be destroyed beforehand before death can be destroyed.
I see this as the enemies of God in hell. So hell would be first cast into the Lake of Fire before death.
In other words, the Lake of Fire is a place of destruction or annihilation. It will destroy both hell and death.
The place of torments (Hades or hell) is in the realm of the dead (i.e., Sheol). This place is in the heart of the Earth. However, this place will not remain forever. I believe the dead saints in Christ will be drawn up out of Abraham’s bosom when the unexpected “Caught Up” event from 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 occurs. They will meet the Lord in the air along with saints who are alive. However, the place of torments (Hades or hell) will last until it is cast into the Lake of Fire along with death. Seeing death will be destroyed suggests that Hades or Hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire to be destroyed, as well.
I see the great gulf or chasm separating the area of Abraham (Paradise) from the place of the rich man (A Place of Torments) as being a lesson in how there are no second chances (generally) when we die. Note: Some people have come back from the dead. But generally speaking, the point of the great gulf shows that good will be separated from evil, and they will not co-mingle. There are no second chances in desiring mercy if one never showed mercy to others and if they never accepted Jesus as their Savior.
You are most welcome, and may the Lord Jesus Christ bless you and your family greatly beyond all measure (To his glory).
Side Note:
Keep in mind I used to believe in ECT and even defended it. Years later, I was on the fence for about a year or so, believing ECT and Conditional Immortality were both possibilities. But then, one early morning, Scripture convinced me to move fully into believing the Bible's teaching on Conditional Immortality. An article on Isaiah 34:10 is what held the key for me. Granted, I believe in Dualistic Conditional Immortality. This is the view that I believe in a literal hell and that the Lake of Fire will be a place of annihilation (either eventually or right away). Most Conditional Immortality Christians hold to the view that hell is just a parable or metaphor. I don't believe that kind of interpretation is tenable, and I believe it is clearly wrong. The "Story of Lazarus and the Rich Man" does not read like a metaphor. Hell is very real (as described in Luke 16:19-31)
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Yes I will keep holding on to my beliefs, as long as nobody can convince me that I have incorrectly understood the Scriptures.
Here's an article about the Lazarus parable that I saved from a newsgroup discussion 23 years ago. It's long so I'll have to split it up into several posts.
It is evident from the whole setting of this passage that it is a parable.
Otherwise the logical lesson to be drawn from it is that unless we are poor
beggars, full of sores, we will never enter eternal bliss; and that future
torment will be our portion if we happen to wear fine linen and purple and fare
sumptuously every day. And, if taken literally, those who are poor are taken,
not to heaven, but to Abraham's bosom. However, the context of this passage
shows that Christ in this parable was teaching a great dispensational truth,
namely, the change of favor from the Mosaic Law Covenant to the Covenant of
faith. (Luke 16:16-18; Galatians 3:6-29) If you read carefully the 32nd
chapter of Deuteronomy, you will see that Jesus was merely repeating in vivid
pictorial language what Moses had already said. See particularly verses 20 to
29; and also Paul's quotation of the 21st verse in Romans 10:19, where he shows
that Moses' prophecy referred to the overthrow of Israel consequent upon Jesus'
rejection of that nation.
Jesus was evidently drawing upon something that was in the real world, the
apostate Jewish belief which blended the Grecian philosophies into the Bible.
The Jewish leaders knew of these beliefs and it was the Jewish leaders that he
was addressing. He used their own beliefs, not to condone their apostate
beliefs, but to illustrate the change he had just spoken of: "The law and the
prophets were until John." -- Luke 16:16.
Some other reasons that this story should be viewed as a parable:
To think that Jesus was supporting the idea of eternal roasting after death by
use of this parable is contrary to God's justice, for justice demanded the
forfeiture of man's life for sin (Genesis 2:17), for "the wages of sin is
death" (Romans 6:23), and of God it is said (Psalm 145:20): "all the wicked
will he destroy." Therefore, it would be an infraction of God's justice for him
to preserve the wicked and eternally torture them.
Additionally, such a conclusion violates God's wisdom, for wisdom devises plans
which useful ends are attained. There is surely no useful purpose in keeping
the rich man eternally in a place of torture.
Of course, the parable says nothing about Lazarus remaining in hades for
eternity, but as Revelation 20:13 shows, all in hades will be brought back for
the judgment day, and then hades will be destroyed in the lake of fire. --
Revelation 20:14; See also Hosea 13:14.
If the Rich Man were in literal flames in hades, this could contradict the
entire testimony of the rest of the Bible, which shows that sheol/hades is
nothingness, oblivion, silence, destruction. -- Ecclesiastes 9:10; Psalm 6:5;
115:17; 146:3,4; Isaiah 38:18; 63:16; Job 14:21; etc. This has been showned
throughout this publication.
(Psalms 146:4) His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
It would contradict God's stated purpose to bless mankind. -- Genesis 12:1-3.
It would contradict the ransom, which is clearly taught, for example, in 1
Corinthians 15:3,21,22, Hebrews 2:9; 1 Timothy 2:6, which scriptures teach that
Christ died (not suffered eternal torment) for our sins according to the
Hebrew scriptures. The prophecy of Isaiah 53:4-12 shows that our Lord would
bear our penalty (which is death -- Genesis 2:17; Romans 6:23 -- not eternal
torment), pouring out his soul to death. The effect of this ransom is to be the
salvation of all men, not the eternal torture of the vast majority. (1 Timothy
4:10; 1 John 2:2) See The Ransom for All - Addr.com
The rich man of the parable represented the proud and self-righteous of the
Jewish nation in our Savior's time, seeking righteousness by means of the Law
Covenant. (Galatians 2:21; Philippians 3:9; Romans 9:31,32) The Pharisees seem
to be particularly represented by the Rich Man. (Luke 16:14,15) The scribes
and Pharisees sat in Moses seat' (Matthew 23:2) as the religious leaders and
representatives in Israel. (Matthew 23:5-7) The Rich Man's clothing of purple
and fine linen represented the honors and privileges accorded to the scribes
and Pharisees. (Matthew 23:5-7) The fine linen represented the
self-righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, which they claimed by the Law.
(John 9:40,41) The purple clothing represented royalty -- not only was purple
the royal color in our Savior's day, but we still speak of royal purple.
(Judges 8:26; John 19:2,3; Mark 15:17,18) The scribes and Pharisees were
sitting in Moses' seat, therefore they had the purple in the sense that to it
belonged the honor of being the typical Kingdom of God, and the promises
respecting the future dominion of God as the Kingdom of God. The abundance of
food upon the Rich Man's table represented the abundance of divine promises and
blessings and instructions given to the scribes and Pharisees. (Romans 9:4,5)
It was this table of divine favors that the apostle referred to saying: "What
advantage does the Jew have? Much in every way, chiefly because to them were
committed the oracles of God." (Romans 3:1-3) This was the table respecting
which the prophet and the apostle spoke concerning Israel: "Let their table
become a trap and a snare to them." (Romans 11:9) In other words, the very
bounties and blessings of God's revelations or oracles tended to make them not
humble, but proud, and ultimately assisted in their stumbling and rejection of
the Savior due to their insistence of their righteousness by works of the Law.
-- Romans 9:30-32.
The scribes and Pharisees would not so much as eat with any they considered as
sinners. (Matthew 9:11) They viewed Jewish sinners the same as if they were
Gentiles, without law. Those who accepted the Messiah's teachings were of this
lowly Jewish class. Matthew, one of his apostles, was a tax collector, others
were common fishermen. (Matthew 10:3; Mark 1:16,19) None of them were
recognized by the religious aristocracy of the time. They were looked down
upon, declared not to be heirs with the holy Pharisees and educated Scribes and
Doctors of the Law. The Pharisees even determined that Jesus himself was not
only a friend of publicans and sinners but an injurious person who must not be
allowed to live. (Matthew 12:14) From the Jewish leaders' standpoint Jesus and
his followers were all outside the gates, excluded from the special privileges
and blessings of God through the "righteousness" Law. These lowly Jewish
followers of Jesus were the first of the Lazarus class.
The Lazarus class also later included those Gentiles of humble heart who
accepted Jesus, thus becoming Jews inwardly and participants in the Abrahamic
promises. (Colossians 3:11; Galatians 3:28,29; Romans 2:28,29; 10:12) As an
illustration of how these fed on the crumbs that fell from the Rich Man's table
let us remember Jesus' words to the Syrophenician woman, a Gentile who came to
him entreating for the healing of her daughter. Our Master, to illustrate the
relative position of the Jews and Gentiles from God's standpoint, said to her:
"It is not proper to take the children's bread and give it to the dogs."
(Matthew 15:26) In other words, Jesus was saying: It would not be proper for me
to devote my time and energies to the blessing of yourself and daughter, who
are Gentiles, because the Jewish nation is by covenant in the favored place
with God. Any special blessings and favors that God has to give must be given
to them first of all. Non- Jews are not to expect to get the favors I was sent
to give to Israel.' We remember his words to the disciples also: "Do not go
into the way of the Gentiles, for I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the
house of Israel." Matthew 15:24
The message and blessings and opportunities could not go to the Gentiles until
first they had been offered to the Jewish table (occupied by the Rich Man) and
had been rejected by all except a remnant the Jewish Lazarus class who would
seek righteousness by faith. (John 1:11,12; Romans 1:15; 2:9,10; 11:5; Matthew
22:3-10) But mark that as Lazarus got some of the "crumbs," according to the
parable, so did the Syrophenician woman. She exclaimed: "True, Lord. Yet the
dogs eat of the crumbs that fall from their masters' table." (Matthew 15:27;
Mark 7:28) Jesus answered her: "'O woman, your faith is great. Let it be to you
even as thou desire.' And her daughter was made whole from that very hour."
(Matthew 15:28) Jesus gave her the crumb of faith from the children's table --
the table being occupied by the Rich Man.
(To be continued.)
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(Continuation of article about the Lazarus parable.)
The Death of Lazarus
In the context of this parable Jesus said the following: "The Law and the
Prophets were until John. Since then the kingdom of God has been preached, and
everyone is pressing into it." (Luke 16:16) To those who view this parable as
literal, this statement would seem to be dealing with a completely different
subject. Yet Jesus gave the parable as an illustration of this very statement.
Jesus made a similar statement as recorded in Matthew 11:12,13: "From the days
of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven is pressing forward
vigorously and those who are vigorous seize it eagerly. For all the prophets
and the law prophesied until John. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"
Jesus also stated: "Whoever puts away his wife, and marries another, commits
adultery: and whoever marries her that is put away from her husband commits
adultery." (Luke 16:18) Again, this seems to be unrelated to the parable.
However, it has much to do with the parable as we will see.
The parable tells us: "The beggar died and was carried by the angels to
Abraham's bosom." The death of the beggar illustrates the Jew who puts his
faith in Jesus as figuratively dying with Jesus. Thus Paul says: "Do you not
know, brothers, (for I speak to them that know the law,) that the law has
dominion over a man as long as he lives? For the woman which has a husband is
bound by the law to her husband so long as he lives. But if the husband should
die, she is released from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband
lives, she should marry to another man, she will be called an adulteress. But
if her husband should die, she is free from that law; so she is no adulteress,
though she should marry another man. Therefore, my brothers, you also have
become dead to the law by the body of Christ, that you should be married to
another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth
fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were
by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we
have been delivered from the law, because being dead to that in which we were
held, we should serve in a new manner by spirit, and not in the old manner by
the letter." (Romans 7:1-6) Notice how well this parallels Luke 16:18.
When Lazarus died, he was taken by the angels to Abraham's bosom. This
signifies the faith-believing Jew becoming part of the true seed of Abraham in
Jesus by promise apart from the Law. "For if the inheritance be of the law, it
is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise." (Galatians 3:18)
"When the full measure of time had come, God sent forth his Son, made of a
woman, made under the Law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we
might receive the adoption as sons." (Galatians 4:4,5) They were being received
into the favored position before God. -- Romans 4:13,14.
Likewise, the believing Gentile also, being a law unto himself, had to die to
the Law of Sin that ruled in his body. (Romans 2:12-15; 3:9-20) Thus both the
believing Jew as well as the believing Gentile are represented in Lazarus.
The Death of the Rich Man
John the Baptist warned the Pharisees and Sadducees: "Even now the ax is laid
to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is
cut down and thrown into the fire." (Matthew 3:10) The Pharisees, the
Sadducees, and the scribes claimed to be the representatives of that law.
(Matthew 12:2; 19:3; 22:34-36; John 7:47- 49) As a rich man riding upon the Law
as a means to righteousness, they missed the righteousness of God. "Israel,
pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of
righteousness. Why? because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by
the works of the law. . . . For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and
seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the
righteousness of God." -- Romans 9:31,32; 10:3
Did the Jewish nation, seeking righteousness after the law, continue in the
favor of God? Or, on the other hand did that nation die to special blessings
and mercies of God that they previously so richly enjoyed? Shortly before
Jesus died, he wept over Jerusalem and said: "Your house is left to you in
desolation." Thus the parable continues: "The rich man also died, and was
buried." With the rejection of the national polity of Jerusalem, the city of
the Jews, Rich Man died, for he no longer had any standing before Yahweh. This
was signified by the vail being ripped apart in the temple at Jesus' death. --
Mark 15:38.
The Rich Man in Torments
Then we read that the Rich Man, in Hades, lifted up his eyes, being in
torments, and he saw Abraham in the distance, and Lazarus in his bosom. So
much were the Jewish leaders tormented by the change of conditions that they
persecuted the followers of Jesus, even to putting them to death. The torment
of the Jewish leaders is demonstrated at Acts 5:33, when the high priest, the
captain of the temple, and the chief priests heard the things Peter and the
other apostles told them: "They were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay
them." They demonstrated a similar torment at the words of Stephen: "When they
heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with
their teeth." (Acts 7:54) The fulfillment of this is also well-illustrated by
Saul (before he became Paul the apostle), who was a Pharisee. Paul himself
states: "For you have heard of my past conduct in the Jews' religion, how that
beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and destroyed it." (Galatians
1:13) "I actually thought to myself, that I should do many things to oppose the
name of Jesus of Nazareth. These things I did also in Jerusalem, and many of
the saints I put into prison, having received authority from the chief priests.
When they were being put to death, I gave my voice against them. I punished
them often in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme. Being
exceedingly angry against them, I persecuted them even in foreign cities."
(Acts 26:9-11) Their torment of feeling the rejection of God by the preaching
of Jesus' followers led them to try to prove that they had not been rejected. A
successful revolt against the Roman yoke would be such a proof.
The Rich Man asks Abraham to send Lazarus, that he might dip the tip of his
finger in water and cool the Rich Man's tongue while he is tormented in the
flames. (Luke 16:24) The Rich Man is not here really wanting to receive help
from the Lazarus class. He speaks, not to Lazarus, but to Abraham, asking for
water from Lazarus. The Jewish leaders began to realize that something was
happening. They did not want to admit that they had missed the Messiah. They
wanted Messiah to deliver them, but on their own terms. Seeing Lazarus at a
distance, they desired a Messiah, someone to deliver them from the torments
they had come into. Especially were they seeking deliverance from the Roman
yoke. In May, 66 CE, the group known as Zealots, with whom were joined
Pharisees and Sadducees, openly rebelled against Roman rule. Under the
leadership of one Joseph Ben Matthias, a Pharisee (better known as Flavius
Josephus), the Jews repulsed the Roman armies for 47 days before surrendering
the fortress of Jotapata. By seeking deliverance from another source than
through faith in Jesus they in effect were saying to Abraham: "Send Lazarus
over to us, that he may cool our tongue." Returning to the parable, Abraham
reminded the Rich Man how he had the good things during his lifetime, while
Lazarus received bad things. The Rich Man had all the favors -- the Law and the
Prophets. "To them were committed the oracles of God." (Romans 3:2) Now Lazarus
was comforted with the knowledge of the Good News, while the Rich Man was in
anguish. -- Luke 16:25; Acts 9:31; 2 Corinthians 1:3-6.
The Chasm
Then Abraham informs the Rich Man that there is a great chasm (canyon, gulf)
between the Rich Man and himself. This chasm represents the difference between
faith in Jesus and the seeking of righteousness through the Law. The Rich Man,
representing those holding to the Law and denying Jesus as the Messiah, could
not cross over the chasm to the other side in an endeavor to blend faith in the
Messiah with seeking righteousness by Law. Likewise, Lazarus, representing
those who are justified by faith in Jesus apart from the works of the Law,
could not cross the chasm to the other side so as to blend the two opposing
parties. Any individual Jew putting faith in Jesus (apart from the Law) would
be represented in the Lazarus class. Any individual Jew who continued in
seeking righteousness according to the Law would be represented by the Rich Man
class. The Jew could be represented by one or the other. One could not accept
righteousness through faith in the Messiah and at the same time seek
righteousness by Law. Such would be crossing the chasm, that is, trying to
bring salvation by works of the Law over to the side of Lazarus, or trying to
take salvation by faith in the Messiah over to the side of the Rich Man,
neither of which could be done. -- Galatians 2:16,21.
(To be continued.)
The Death of Lazarus
In the context of this parable Jesus said the following: "The Law and the
Prophets were until John. Since then the kingdom of God has been preached, and
everyone is pressing into it." (Luke 16:16) To those who view this parable as
literal, this statement would seem to be dealing with a completely different
subject. Yet Jesus gave the parable as an illustration of this very statement.
Jesus made a similar statement as recorded in Matthew 11:12,13: "From the days
of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven is pressing forward
vigorously and those who are vigorous seize it eagerly. For all the prophets
and the law prophesied until John. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"
Jesus also stated: "Whoever puts away his wife, and marries another, commits
adultery: and whoever marries her that is put away from her husband commits
adultery." (Luke 16:18) Again, this seems to be unrelated to the parable.
However, it has much to do with the parable as we will see.
The parable tells us: "The beggar died and was carried by the angels to
Abraham's bosom." The death of the beggar illustrates the Jew who puts his
faith in Jesus as figuratively dying with Jesus. Thus Paul says: "Do you not
know, brothers, (for I speak to them that know the law,) that the law has
dominion over a man as long as he lives? For the woman which has a husband is
bound by the law to her husband so long as he lives. But if the husband should
die, she is released from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband
lives, she should marry to another man, she will be called an adulteress. But
if her husband should die, she is free from that law; so she is no adulteress,
though she should marry another man. Therefore, my brothers, you also have
become dead to the law by the body of Christ, that you should be married to
another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth
fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were
by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we
have been delivered from the law, because being dead to that in which we were
held, we should serve in a new manner by spirit, and not in the old manner by
the letter." (Romans 7:1-6) Notice how well this parallels Luke 16:18.
When Lazarus died, he was taken by the angels to Abraham's bosom. This
signifies the faith-believing Jew becoming part of the true seed of Abraham in
Jesus by promise apart from the Law. "For if the inheritance be of the law, it
is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise." (Galatians 3:18)
"When the full measure of time had come, God sent forth his Son, made of a
woman, made under the Law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we
might receive the adoption as sons." (Galatians 4:4,5) They were being received
into the favored position before God. -- Romans 4:13,14.
Likewise, the believing Gentile also, being a law unto himself, had to die to
the Law of Sin that ruled in his body. (Romans 2:12-15; 3:9-20) Thus both the
believing Jew as well as the believing Gentile are represented in Lazarus.
The Death of the Rich Man
John the Baptist warned the Pharisees and Sadducees: "Even now the ax is laid
to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is
cut down and thrown into the fire." (Matthew 3:10) The Pharisees, the
Sadducees, and the scribes claimed to be the representatives of that law.
(Matthew 12:2; 19:3; 22:34-36; John 7:47- 49) As a rich man riding upon the Law
as a means to righteousness, they missed the righteousness of God. "Israel,
pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of
righteousness. Why? because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by
the works of the law. . . . For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and
seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the
righteousness of God." -- Romans 9:31,32; 10:3
Did the Jewish nation, seeking righteousness after the law, continue in the
favor of God? Or, on the other hand did that nation die to special blessings
and mercies of God that they previously so richly enjoyed? Shortly before
Jesus died, he wept over Jerusalem and said: "Your house is left to you in
desolation." Thus the parable continues: "The rich man also died, and was
buried." With the rejection of the national polity of Jerusalem, the city of
the Jews, Rich Man died, for he no longer had any standing before Yahweh. This
was signified by the vail being ripped apart in the temple at Jesus' death. --
Mark 15:38.
The Rich Man in Torments
Then we read that the Rich Man, in Hades, lifted up his eyes, being in
torments, and he saw Abraham in the distance, and Lazarus in his bosom. So
much were the Jewish leaders tormented by the change of conditions that they
persecuted the followers of Jesus, even to putting them to death. The torment
of the Jewish leaders is demonstrated at Acts 5:33, when the high priest, the
captain of the temple, and the chief priests heard the things Peter and the
other apostles told them: "They were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay
them." They demonstrated a similar torment at the words of Stephen: "When they
heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with
their teeth." (Acts 7:54) The fulfillment of this is also well-illustrated by
Saul (before he became Paul the apostle), who was a Pharisee. Paul himself
states: "For you have heard of my past conduct in the Jews' religion, how that
beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and destroyed it." (Galatians
1:13) "I actually thought to myself, that I should do many things to oppose the
name of Jesus of Nazareth. These things I did also in Jerusalem, and many of
the saints I put into prison, having received authority from the chief priests.
When they were being put to death, I gave my voice against them. I punished
them often in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme. Being
exceedingly angry against them, I persecuted them even in foreign cities."
(Acts 26:9-11) Their torment of feeling the rejection of God by the preaching
of Jesus' followers led them to try to prove that they had not been rejected. A
successful revolt against the Roman yoke would be such a proof.
The Rich Man asks Abraham to send Lazarus, that he might dip the tip of his
finger in water and cool the Rich Man's tongue while he is tormented in the
flames. (Luke 16:24) The Rich Man is not here really wanting to receive help
from the Lazarus class. He speaks, not to Lazarus, but to Abraham, asking for
water from Lazarus. The Jewish leaders began to realize that something was
happening. They did not want to admit that they had missed the Messiah. They
wanted Messiah to deliver them, but on their own terms. Seeing Lazarus at a
distance, they desired a Messiah, someone to deliver them from the torments
they had come into. Especially were they seeking deliverance from the Roman
yoke. In May, 66 CE, the group known as Zealots, with whom were joined
Pharisees and Sadducees, openly rebelled against Roman rule. Under the
leadership of one Joseph Ben Matthias, a Pharisee (better known as Flavius
Josephus), the Jews repulsed the Roman armies for 47 days before surrendering
the fortress of Jotapata. By seeking deliverance from another source than
through faith in Jesus they in effect were saying to Abraham: "Send Lazarus
over to us, that he may cool our tongue." Returning to the parable, Abraham
reminded the Rich Man how he had the good things during his lifetime, while
Lazarus received bad things. The Rich Man had all the favors -- the Law and the
Prophets. "To them were committed the oracles of God." (Romans 3:2) Now Lazarus
was comforted with the knowledge of the Good News, while the Rich Man was in
anguish. -- Luke 16:25; Acts 9:31; 2 Corinthians 1:3-6.
The Chasm
Then Abraham informs the Rich Man that there is a great chasm (canyon, gulf)
between the Rich Man and himself. This chasm represents the difference between
faith in Jesus and the seeking of righteousness through the Law. The Rich Man,
representing those holding to the Law and denying Jesus as the Messiah, could
not cross over the chasm to the other side in an endeavor to blend faith in the
Messiah with seeking righteousness by Law. Likewise, Lazarus, representing
those who are justified by faith in Jesus apart from the works of the Law,
could not cross the chasm to the other side so as to blend the two opposing
parties. Any individual Jew putting faith in Jesus (apart from the Law) would
be represented in the Lazarus class. Any individual Jew who continued in
seeking righteousness according to the Law would be represented by the Rich Man
class. The Jew could be represented by one or the other. One could not accept
righteousness through faith in the Messiah and at the same time seek
righteousness by Law. Such would be crossing the chasm, that is, trying to
bring salvation by works of the Law over to the side of Lazarus, or trying to
take salvation by faith in the Messiah over to the side of the Rich Man,
neither of which could be done. -- Galatians 2:16,21.
(To be continued.)
(Final part of article about the Lazarus parable.)
The Rich Man's Brothers
Next, the Rich Man, again addressing Abraham, asks for Lazarus to go to his
father's house to warn his five brothers, that they not come into the place of
torment he was in. (Luke 16:28) In the years 67-68 CE many Jews were taken
prisoners by Vespasian. A knowledge that God was punishing the chosen people
was growing amongst many of the Jewish people who had been taken prisoners.
Josephus was among these. Another Pharisee, Jochanan ben Zakkai, likewise began
to recognize that it was not God's will for the Jews to be freed from the
Romans. These prisoners and others, in effect, were asking Abraham for a
Messiah, not to deliver the remaining revolting Jews from the Roman yoke, but
to warn them of the tragedy that was to come if they continued in their revolt.
In doing this, however, they still did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah nor
his followers as the true Lazarus. They wanted a justification, a Lazarus who
would come to help their "brothers" under the Law. Abraham replied that they
had Moses and the Prophets; they could listen to them. These, we are told,
would lead them to the Messiah. (Galatians 3:24) To send the true Lazarus to
the "brothers" of the Rich Man, would have necessitated the revoking of their
death to sin and the law. (Romans 6:2,7,8,11; 7:4) To do so would have meant
they would become "twice dead" condemned to death twice by the law of sin. Thus
Abraham told the Rich Man that if his brothers would not listen to Moses and
the Prophets, neither would they listen to one who rose from the dead -- those
dead with Messiah. The remaining Jews in Jerusalem, Masada, etc., did not
listen to Moses and the Prophets, they continued their rebellion until the city
of Jerusalem with its temple was totally destroyed in the year 70 CE. In the
year 73 the siege of Masada ended in disastrous results to the "brothers" of
the Rich Man. Jesus does not take the narrative any further.
The number of "brothers" used in the parable is a total of six; the one who
dies and the five who remain alive. We believe this number -- six --
the number of imperfection, is used to represent the unrighteous condition of
the six brothers, that is, they had not been justified in the blood of the
lamb.
Some try to show that Abraham's bosom in the parable of the Rich Man and
Lazarus represents heaven or paradise. They argue: "The fact that at death
Abraham's soul went to heaven is plainly stated in Scripture (Hebrews 11:10,16;
cf. Matthew 8:11)" Yet, neither Hebrews 11:10,16 nor Matthew 8:11 say anything
about Abraham's continuance of life in heaven while in death. Those who refer
to the scriptures in this manner desire to read into scripture something which
is not there. Matthew 8:10-12 and Luke 13:28-30 depict the end results of the
Jewish rejection of their Messiah in the resurrection. The Kingdom was taken
from them and given to a nation producing its fruitage. (Matthew 21:43)
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob sit in this kingdom because it is this nation that
becomes the seed of Abraham. Of course, the language of the parable is
pictorial, not to be taken literally. The children of the kingdom, the Jews as
a whole, were cast out into outer darkness. There they were weeping and
gnashing their teeth. They were cast out when Jesus stated: "O Jerusalem,
Jerusalem you who killed the prophets, and stoned them that were sent to you
how often I would have gathered your children together, as hen gathers her
offspring under her wings, but you would not allow it! Look, your house is left
to you in desolation. Truly I say to that you will not see until the time
comes when you will say: Blessed is he who comes in the name of Yahweh!'" (Luke
13:34,35) In all this there is no reference to a living existence of Abraham
going to heaven when he died.
Likewise Hebrews 11:10,16 refers to the city that will come down from heaven in
the next age. (Revelation 21:1-4) Thus it will be in the time when Abraham will
be resurrected, and the time when God himself is spoken of as dwelling with
men. Hebrews 11:35 indicates that the resurrection, not an undieable soul, is
referred to. Abraham did not receive the promise, we are told, nor was he made
perfect before the believers in the Messiah. (Hebrews 11:39,40) Nothing is
stated in the scriptures cited nor in the context to the effect that Abraham's
soul went to heaven when he died.
The Rich Man's Brothers
Next, the Rich Man, again addressing Abraham, asks for Lazarus to go to his
father's house to warn his five brothers, that they not come into the place of
torment he was in. (Luke 16:28) In the years 67-68 CE many Jews were taken
prisoners by Vespasian. A knowledge that God was punishing the chosen people
was growing amongst many of the Jewish people who had been taken prisoners.
Josephus was among these. Another Pharisee, Jochanan ben Zakkai, likewise began
to recognize that it was not God's will for the Jews to be freed from the
Romans. These prisoners and others, in effect, were asking Abraham for a
Messiah, not to deliver the remaining revolting Jews from the Roman yoke, but
to warn them of the tragedy that was to come if they continued in their revolt.
In doing this, however, they still did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah nor
his followers as the true Lazarus. They wanted a justification, a Lazarus who
would come to help their "brothers" under the Law. Abraham replied that they
had Moses and the Prophets; they could listen to them. These, we are told,
would lead them to the Messiah. (Galatians 3:24) To send the true Lazarus to
the "brothers" of the Rich Man, would have necessitated the revoking of their
death to sin and the law. (Romans 6:2,7,8,11; 7:4) To do so would have meant
they would become "twice dead" condemned to death twice by the law of sin. Thus
Abraham told the Rich Man that if his brothers would not listen to Moses and
the Prophets, neither would they listen to one who rose from the dead -- those
dead with Messiah. The remaining Jews in Jerusalem, Masada, etc., did not
listen to Moses and the Prophets, they continued their rebellion until the city
of Jerusalem with its temple was totally destroyed in the year 70 CE. In the
year 73 the siege of Masada ended in disastrous results to the "brothers" of
the Rich Man. Jesus does not take the narrative any further.
The number of "brothers" used in the parable is a total of six; the one who
dies and the five who remain alive. We believe this number -- six --
the number of imperfection, is used to represent the unrighteous condition of
the six brothers, that is, they had not been justified in the blood of the
lamb.
Some try to show that Abraham's bosom in the parable of the Rich Man and
Lazarus represents heaven or paradise. They argue: "The fact that at death
Abraham's soul went to heaven is plainly stated in Scripture (Hebrews 11:10,16;
cf. Matthew 8:11)" Yet, neither Hebrews 11:10,16 nor Matthew 8:11 say anything
about Abraham's continuance of life in heaven while in death. Those who refer
to the scriptures in this manner desire to read into scripture something which
is not there. Matthew 8:10-12 and Luke 13:28-30 depict the end results of the
Jewish rejection of their Messiah in the resurrection. The Kingdom was taken
from them and given to a nation producing its fruitage. (Matthew 21:43)
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob sit in this kingdom because it is this nation that
becomes the seed of Abraham. Of course, the language of the parable is
pictorial, not to be taken literally. The children of the kingdom, the Jews as
a whole, were cast out into outer darkness. There they were weeping and
gnashing their teeth. They were cast out when Jesus stated: "O Jerusalem,
Jerusalem you who killed the prophets, and stoned them that were sent to you
how often I would have gathered your children together, as hen gathers her
offspring under her wings, but you would not allow it! Look, your house is left
to you in desolation. Truly I say to that you will not see until the time
comes when you will say: Blessed is he who comes in the name of Yahweh!'" (Luke
13:34,35) In all this there is no reference to a living existence of Abraham
going to heaven when he died.
Likewise Hebrews 11:10,16 refers to the city that will come down from heaven in
the next age. (Revelation 21:1-4) Thus it will be in the time when Abraham will
be resurrected, and the time when God himself is spoken of as dwelling with
men. Hebrews 11:35 indicates that the resurrection, not an undieable soul, is
referred to. Abraham did not receive the promise, we are told, nor was he made
perfect before the believers in the Messiah. (Hebrews 11:39,40) Nothing is
stated in the scriptures cited nor in the context to the effect that Abraham's
soul went to heaven when he died.
You do realise that Jesus went to hell? Was he tortured too?
Acts 2:25-32 (WEB):
(25) For David says concerning him, ‘I saw the Lord always before my face, For he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved.
(26) Therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced. Moreover my flesh also will dwell in hope;
(27) because you will not leave my soul in Hades,neither will you allow your Holy One to see decay.
(28) You made known to me the ways of life. You will make me full of gladness with your presence.’
(29) “Brothers, I may tell you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
(30) Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, he would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,
(31) he foreseeing this spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that his soul wasn’t left in Hades, and his flesh didn’t see decay.
(32) This Jesus God raised up, to which we all are witnesses.
As Peter explains, Jesus' soul was not left in Hades (hell), nor his flesh left to decay in the tomb, for God resurrected him after three days. So Jesus only slept in death for three days, and he was not torrmented during that time.
Then why are you participating in this forum if you think that all we need to do to understand the Scriptures is simply read them? As the apostle Peter explained, some of the Scriptures are hard to understand, and we need help in our studies of them in order to correctly understand them.
2 Peter 3:15-16 (WEB):
(15) Regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote to you;
(16) as also in all of his letters, speaking in them of these things. In those, there are some things that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unsettled twist, as they also do to the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Jesus was not tortured in hell. That is a false doctrine that some Christians promote. However, Jesus did preach (declare a message) to the spirits in prison (i.e., those wicked men who perished in the global flood).
Note: I personally believe Jesus was declaring victory in the fact that He won.
But that is my opinion and not biblical fact.
Anyways, Jesus basically said He would be in the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights. The heart of the Earth literally is the heart or center of the Earth, whereby the spiritual realm of the dead is located, known as "Sheol." This realm, called "Sheol" is separated into two compartments. One side is for the wicked (Hades or hell), and the other side is for the faithful saints called "Abraham's Bosom" or "Paradise." Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with him in paradise. So Jesus was in Abraham's bosom with the thief on the cross, and he preached a message to the wicked inhabitants (who perished in the global flood) in Hades or the place of torments.
Note: I personally believe Jesus was declaring victory in the fact that He won.
But that is my opinion and not biblical fact.
Anyways, Jesus basically said He would be in the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights. The heart of the Earth literally is the heart or center of the Earth, whereby the spiritual realm of the dead is located, known as "Sheol." This realm, called "Sheol" is separated into two compartments. One side is for the wicked (Hades or hell), and the other side is for the faithful saints called "Abraham's Bosom" or "Paradise." Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with him in paradise. So Jesus was in Abraham's bosom with the thief on the cross, and he preached a message to the wicked inhabitants (who perished in the global flood) in Hades or the place of torments.
You're mixing up Scripture verses which are talking about different things and assuming that they're talking about the same thing, hence the confusion. Those spirits are not humans, they're fallen angels. Jude 1:6 (WEB):
(6) Angels who didn’t keep their first domain, but deserted their own dwelling place, he has kept in everlasting bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day.
Peter also mentions them and where they are - in Tartarus, not Hades (hell). 2 Peter 2:4 (WEB):
(4) For if God didn’t spare angels when they sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and committed them to pits of darkness to be reserved for judgment;
They are not dead, so they can be preached too. All dead humans are in an unconscious sleep which they only awake from when they are resurrected, so they can't be preached to until after they are resurrected.
You're only assuming the Luke 16 parable is literally true in order to deduce that, but even then you're making incorrect assumptions. The parable never says that "Abraham's Bosom" is paradise, and paradise is not in hell, nor within viewing distance of hell - otherwise everyone in paradise will spend forever looking at people being tortured in fire, which doesn't sound like paradise to me!
In the parable Jesus was describing a scene that the Pharisees understood because they had blended Grecian philosophies into their beliefs. That is not the true reality, but Jesus used their false beliefs to make his message understood by them. As that article that I posted said:
Jesus was evidently drawing upon something that was in the real world, the
apostate Jewish belief which blended the Grecian philosophies into the Bible.
The Jewish leaders knew of these beliefs and it was the Jewish leaders that he
was addressing. He used their own beliefs, not to condone their apostate
beliefs, but to illustrate the change he had just spoken of: "The law and the
prophets were until John." -- Luke 16:16.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Take no offense, but I strive not to talk directly with those who deny the Trinity or the Godhead in Scripture.
One has to know how God reveals Himself in Scripture according to His Word to understand other spiritual things.
BECAUSE I WANT TO BE. its a discussion the Bible tells us of a place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, eternal death where the worm dieth not. luke 16 is not a parable
Keiw
Well-Known Member
Yes i do, and Jesus backs them 100%. Its not kingdom hall doctrine, its Gods truth they teach. The teachings of Jesus back them 100%.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
Every Bible I've used so far, I'm certainly not saying I've read them all but all the ones I've read regarding Jude 7 don't use angels, that's true, but Jude 7 does seem to be referring back to the angels at Jude 6 when Jude 7 says, "So too Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah and the cities about them, after they in the same manner as the foregoing ones had committed fornication excessively and gone out after flesh for unnatural use, are placed before [us] as a [warning] example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire."
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
The very passage that you quote from Jude, proves that you are well WRONG!
Verse 7 reads, "as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire"
Here we have the word "suffering", which is in the Greek, "ὑπέχουσαι", which is the present active participle, denoting that these were still "suffering" 1000's of years after the Account in Genesis, when Jude was writing. Their "suffering" is "ongoing", and not "one-off". This also means that the "eternal fire", which these were punished with in Genesis, was still very much burning at the time Jude wrote.
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