Why Hell is not a place of eternal conscious torment.

[Bible Highlighter]

All these points are summed up here:

“…shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” (Revelation 20:10)

Why are you lowering the severity of the punishing of the wicked?

I believe that would be side-stepping the points and or issues I made, my friend. Then again, I see the ECT belief as not standing up to any real scrutiny. I remember watching one debate between ECT vs. Conditional Immortality on YouTube recently, and the ECT guy was not really dealing properly with the Conditionalist's point. At one point, the ECT guy almost seemed embarrassed.

Anyways, if your belief in ECT could stand, then disproving my points should be mere child's play. But you paint a broad brush stroke so as not to truly deal with each of the points I made specifically in detail. This is a re-occurring pattern I have noticed in these kinds of thread discussions involving this topic. In fact, I noticed the same thing taking place on another forum on this topic (in which I am currently involved in). So I would kindly appreciate it if you prove the cliche as being wrong.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have studied all sides carefully. I studied true God worship history and studied Jesus carefully since 1961--The JW,s are correct-0 doubt in all creation.
Trinity translations are altered, and have errors translated in to fit false council teachings from centuries ago.

 

[Jack]

Eze 28:

(18) By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your commerce, you have profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought out a fire from the middle of you. It has devoured you. I have turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all those who see you.​

(19) All those who know you among the peoples will be astonished at you. You have become a terror, and you will exist no more.​

Psa 39:13

(13) Oh spare me, that I may recover strength, before I go away, and exist no more.”​

Psa 146:2

(2) While I live, I will praise Yahweh. I will sing praises to my God as long as I exist.​

Psa 104:33

(33) I will sing to Yahweh as long as I live. I will sing praise to my God while I have any being.​

Psa 37:10

(10) For yet a little while, and the wicked will be no more. Yes, though you look for his place, he isn’t there.​

Try reading the NT.

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Still nothing new to say, eh? Just going back and forth. As I said, perhaps it's time to stop repeating the same thing over and over, and move on to discussing something else.

Well no, I stick with Jesus. His Word doesn't change. He warned us of Hell fire!

 

[Jack]

Can I show you an example of the actual unicorn from the Bible?
No. While the unicorn is a real creature from the Bible, we do not have any hardcore evidence or an example of the biblical unicorn.
So I cannot show you an example of the biblical unicorn.
We don’t know what the biblical unicorn looks like.
An example is something I can demonstrate to you in order for you to see it.
Something that cannot be seen is not an example.

Why do I say this?

Well, because Jude 1:7 says,

”Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”​

Notice the enlarged set of words of the verse above. It says Sodom and Gomorrha ARE SET FORTH FOR AN EXAMPLE.
Bible archaelogists have went to Sodom today and the example of the fire that came down from Heaven destroying those cities is the AFTERMATH of destruction.

We can visit the place of Sodom and Gomorrah today and see the aftermath of its destruction.

This leaves us an EXAMPLE of what we read about in how these cities were destroyed by eternal fire from Heaven.

In other words, the eternal fire in Jude 1:7 is the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because it was an example to those living during that time period and it is an example to us today (Because we can visit that place and see it’s destruction).

Your smokescreen noted. Jesus says you're wrong.

 

[Jack]

So this is what we would call an ad hominem. Nowhere did I say that I don’t believe in eternal life. You are falsely accusing me of that. In fact, I believe in eternal life. John 3:16 contrasts “everlasting life” with the word “perish.” To perish is to be destroyed or erased from existence (from its previous state). For if I burn a piece of paper, it has perished and becomes ash and smoke.

Exodus 40:15 says,

"And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.""​

The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15), that is-until-it was superseded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).

So if we are to take your interpretation that “everlasting punishment” in Matthew 25:46 refers to punishment for all eternity, then that means that the Aaronic priesthood is still ongoing today, and Christ who is of a different priesthood order, has not superseded it.

So I ask you:

How do you read the words “everlasting priesthood” in Exodus 40:15?
Do you believe the Aaronic priesthood is everlasting and will continue for eternity?

Please do not dodge these questions.

Side Note:

Jude 1:3 says,

”Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation,​

it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that​

ye should earnestly contend for the faith​

which was once delivered unto the saints.”​

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).
This would be defending the Bible in what it says in all places when challenged (if you are capable of doing so).

So this is why I challenge you to explain the words “everlasting priesthood” in Exodus 40:15.
It’s your responsibility as a believer to contend for the faith and give a proper answer to this.

Otherwise, you are simply doing this…

So this is what we would call an ad hominem. Nowhere did I say that I don’t believe in eternal life. You are falsely accusing me of that.

You're spewing Kingdom Hall doctrine. You didn't have to say it. Jesus clearly taught "everlasting punishment".

In fact, I believe in eternal life. John 3:16 contrasts “everlasting life” with the word “perish.” To perish is to be destroyed or erased from existence (from its previous state). For if I burn a piece of paper, it has perished and becomes ash and smoke.

Exodus 40:15 says,

"And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.""​

The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15), that is-until-it was superseded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).

So if we are to take your interpretation that “everlasting punishment” in Matthew 25:46 refers to punishment for all eternity, then that means that the Aaronic priesthood is still ongoing today, and Christ who is of a different priesthood order, has not superseded it.

So I ask you:

How do you read the words “everlasting priesthood” in Exodus 40:15?
Do you believe the Aaronic priesthood is everlasting and will continue for eternity?

Please do not dodge these questions.

Side Note:

Jude 1:3 says,

”Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation,​

it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that​

ye should earnestly contend for the faith​

which was once delivered unto the saints.”​

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).
This would be defending the Bible in what it says in all places when challenged (if you are capable of doing so).

So this is why I challenge you to explain the words “everlasting priesthood” in Exodus 40:15.
It’s your responsibility as a believer to contend for the faith and give a proper answer to this.

Otherwise, you are simply doing this…

Do you really think you will obtain everlasting life when you are leading people to Hell fire?

 

[Jack]

Yes i have read it a few x It does not say i am wrong.

It sure does! Luke 16 and Rev say you're totally wrong.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You're spewing Kingdom Hall doctrine.

No, sorry. That's not true. The JW's did not invent Conditional Immortality in the Bible. The JW's came into existence in the 1870s. Charles Taze Russel organized a Bible study, and by 1880 there were 30 congregations following his teaching. In 1879, he began publishing The Watchtower Announcing Jehovah’s Kingdom magazine. In 1884, he incorporated Zion’s Watch Tower Tract Society.

Source:
Way of Life Literature

Before the JW's came into existence:

Archbishop John Tillotson (1630-1694) of Canterbury states

"I do not find that the doctrine of the immortality of the soul is anywhere expressly delivered in Scripture, but taken for granted."​

Joseph Nicol Scott M.D. (1703-1769) was also a minister who assisted his father, Thomas Scott and maintained that

"... life is for the righteous only, with destruction for the wicked."​

Bishop William Warburton (1698-1779) was bishop of Gloucester and a theological controversialist who

"... styled militant believers in everlasting torment as the `unmerciful doctors'."​

Samuel Burn (1714-1796) was known as a dissenter and was from Rivington, Lancashire. He

"... stresses `total destruction, or annihilation or ceasing to exist' for the incorrigibly wicked."​

Herman Olshausen (1796-1839) was professor of theology at Königsberg, Ostpreussen in Germany. He wrote:

"The doctrine of the immortality of the soul and the name are alike unknown in the entire Bible."​

Archbishop Richard Whately (1787-1863) was archbishop of Dublin, Ireland and a professor at Oxford and principal. He taught the final destruction of the wicked and believed

"The wicked are never spoken of as being kept alive, but as forfeiting life."​

You didn't have to say it. Jesus clearly taught "everlasting punishment".

Again, I am not against Jesus saying there is an everlasting punishment, as Matthew 25:46 says.
I interpret this to be a one-time punishment with eternal consequences. I take this also as a reference to 2 Thessalonians 1:9 which refers to a thing called "everlasting destruction." Something that is destroyed is no more.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your smokescreen noted. Jesus says you're wrong.

This statement is not really dealing with the points I made.
Please go back and make a more intelligent response.
Just expressing opinionated statements does not really mean anything.

 

[Jack]

No, sorry. That's not true. The JW's did not invent Conditional Immortality in the Bible. The JW's came into existence in the 1870s. Charles Taze Russel organized a Bible study, and by 1880 there were 30 congregations following his teaching. In 1879, he began publishing The Watchtower Announcing Jehovah’s Kingdom magazine. In 1884, he incorporated Zion’s Watch Tower Tract Society.

Before the JW's came into existence:

Archbishop John Tillotson (1630-1694) of Canterbury states

"I do not find that the doctrine of the immortality of the soul is anywhere expressly delivered in Scripture, but taken for granted."​

Joseph Nicol Scott M.D. (1703-1769) was also a minister who assisted his father, Thomas Scott and maintained that

"... life is for the righteous only, with destruction for the wicked."​

Bishop William Warburton (1698-1779) was bishop of Gloucester and a theological controversialist who

"... styled militant believers in everlasting torment as the `unmerciful doctors'."​

Samuel Burn (1714-1796) was known as a dissenter and was from Rivington, Lancashire. He

"... stresses `total destruction, or annihilation or ceasing to exist' for the incorrigibly wicked."​

Herman Olshausen (1796-1839) was professor of theology at Königsberg, Ostpreussen in Germany. He wrote:

"The doctrine of the immortality of the soul and the name are alike unknown in the entire Bible."​

Archbishop Richard Whately (1787-1863) was archbishop of Dublin, Ireland and a professor at Oxford and principal. He taught the final destruction of the wicked and believed

"The wicked are never spoken of as being kept alive, but as forfeiting life."​

Again, I am not against Jesus saying there is an everlasting punishment, as Matthew 25:46 says.
I interpret this to be a one-time punishment with eternal consequences. I take this also as a reference to 2 Thessalonians 1:9 which refers to a thing called "everlasting destruction." Something that is destroyed is no more.

Rev "They will be tormented day and night FOREVER"

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Rev "They will be tormented day and night FOREVER"

I explained Revelation 20:10 here.

Note: We are forced by Scripture to be led to the conclusion that Revelation 21:10 is not speaking about being tormented for all eternity based on several points in Scripture, which I mention here.

He that has ears to hear let him hear.

 

[keithr]

Take, for example, Philemon 1:15: Paul mentioned to Philemon how Onesmith would return to him (his master) forever. Obviously, Onesmith is not an immortal man still living on Earth with his master (Philemon) today.

Okay, I've got to ask - why do you keep typing Onesmith when the guy's name is Onesimus?

 

[Ezra]

next there is no such thing as hell the eternal lake of fire . eternal darkness weeping and gnashing of teeth. just one BIG scifi thing right? WRONG hell is real a place of eternal torment .. the rich man in hell lifted up his eyes in torment 2. things it was Hot just one drop of water to cool his tongue . 2. tell my family not to come here.
to say otherwise goes against the Bible and waters it down.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

My apologies for using the word "Onesmith." I meant "Onesimus." It was a misspelling on my part.

I fixed it in the thread.

 

[keithr]

hell is real a place of eternal torment .. the rich man in hell lifted up his eyes in torment 2. things it was Hot just one drop of water to cool his tongue . 2. tell my family not to come here.
to say otherwise goes against the Bible and waters it down.

On the contrary, to say that hell is a literal place of eternal torment goes against the Bible!

The Luke 16 passage is a parable, telling a story that the "Pharisees, who were lovers of money" (verse 14), would understand. Note that Jesus did not apportion any sin to the rich man - he just said that he was rich. Is being rich deserving of eternal torture in fire?

Likewise Jesus did not say anything about whether the beggar was a sinner or not (although as the Scriptures say, “There is no one righteous; no, not one", Romans 3:10).

Why would anyone be tortured/tormented in Sheol/Hades (hell/grave)? There is no concsious thought in death/Hades, so torment is impossible. Nobody is judged until after they are awakened from sleep in Hades (grave), so why would they be tormented in fire before they have been judged? If they are not awakened then they are perished (permanently destroyed).

1 Corinthians 15:16-18 (WEB):

(16) For if the dead aren’t raised, neither has Christ been raised.​

(17) If Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins.​

(18) Then they also who are fallen asleep in Christ have perished.​

Revelation 20:13 (WEB):

(13) The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works.​

Note that death and Hades mean the same thing. Those that died in the sea are not in a grave/tomb; like those in graves/tombs their bodies will have decomposed or been completely destroyed. But the sea and the earth will give up the dead, they will be awakened to life again (death is like a sleep, as God said, Deuteronomy 31:16 - Yahweh said to Moses, “Behold, you shall sleep with your fathers").

Hell, or Hades, means being in a tomb or grave. John 5:28 (WEB):

(28) Don’t marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs will hear his voice,​

The Bible does not teach that God is so evil that He will torture millions of people with excrutiating pain for all eternity; it's Satan that deceives people into believing that. Job 34:10 (WEB):

(10) “Therefore listen to me, you men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness, from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.​

Isaiah 25:8

He has swallowed up death forever! The Lord Yahweh will wipe away tears from off all faces. He will take the reproach of his people away from off all the earth, for Yahweh has spoken it.​

Revelation 21:4

He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; neither will there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more. The first things have passed away.”​

 

[Ezra]

On the contrary, to say that hell is a literal place of eternal torment goes against the Bible!

you keep holding to that and keep watering the word down luke 16 DOES not say parable thye last judgment is real and hell is real.. you can keep your religious beliefs

 

[Jack]

This statement is not really dealing with the points I made.
Please go back and make a more intelligent response.
Just expressing opinionated statements does not really mean anything.

But Jesus said you're wrong.

 

[Jack]

I explained Revelation 20:10 here.

Note: We are forced by Scripture to be led to the conclusion that Revelation 21:10 is not speaking about being tormented for all eternity based on several points in Scripture, which I mention here.

He that has ears to hear let him hear.

Your basic argument is "the Bible is wrong".

 

[Keiw]

Its because you wont believe Jesus you doubt my words are truth. Every true follower believes Jesus-first.

 

[Keiw]

It sure does! Luke 16 and Rev say you're totally wrong.

How do they show i am wrong?

 

[Jack]

How do they show i am wrong?

You've never read them???