You're not reading that correctly. They are indeed suffering eternal fire.
Why Hell is not a place of eternal conscious torment.
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I didn't interpret anything. You are. You're saying Jesus was wrong. You don't believe in eternal life? I do.
Should we believe you or Jesus?
Matthew 25
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life."
Same Greek word, never ending.
Well we certainly shouldn't believe you when you claim that "Christians know that Jesus taught more about Hell fire than eternal life" (post #656) if you can't prove it. It seems that you are so lacking in confidence in your claim that you haven't event attempted to try to prove it.
This thread is going round and around in the same circle - perhaps it's time to move on? As I said in post #343 from 8 days ago:
But what is the punishment for sin? It's eternal death, not eternal life of physical torment/torture.
Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Eze 18:4,20 - The soul who sins, he shall die.
Rev 20:14 - Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
There are only two possible futures for people - eternal life or eternal death. That is the only way to harmonise verses of Scripture that otherwise would appear to be contradictory.
God doesn't give the gift of eternal life to a person just so that he can torture that person for eternity (which is extremely evil). In Matthew 7:11 (WEB) Jesus said:
(11) As bad as you are, you know how to give good things to your children. How much more, then, will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
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Death NEVER means "cease to exist" in the Bible. That's Kingdom Hall doctrine! Those who convince people that there is no "everlasting fire" are leading people to Hell fire.
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
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Eze 28:
(18) By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your commerce, you have profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought out a fire from the middle of you. It has devoured you. I have turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all those who see you.
(19) All those who know you among the peoples will be astonished at you. You have become a terror, and you will exist no more.
Psa 39:13
(13) Oh spare me, that I may recover strength, before I go away, and exist no more.”
Psa 146:2
(2) While I live, I will praise Yahweh. I will sing praises to my God as long as I exist.
Psa 104:33(33) I will sing to Yahweh as long as I live. I will sing praise to my God while I have any being.
Psa 37:10
(10) For yet a little while, and the wicked will be no more. Yes, though you look for his place, he isn’t there.
Still nothing new to say, eh? Just going back and forth.
As I said, perhaps it's time to stop repeating the same thing over and over, and move on to discussing something else.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Can I show you an example of the actual unicorn from the Bible?
No. While the unicorn is a real creature from the Bible, we do not have any hardcore evidence or an example of the biblical unicorn.
So I cannot show you an example of the biblical unicorn.
We don’t know what the biblical unicorn looks like.
An example is something I can demonstrate to you in order for you to see it.
Something that cannot be seen is not an example.
Why do I say this?
Well, because Jude 1:7 says,
”Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”
Notice the enlarged set of words of the verse above. It says Sodom and Gomorrha ARE SET FORTH FOR AN EXAMPLE.
Bible archaelogists have went to Sodom today and the example of the fire that came down from Heaven destroying those cities is the AFTERMATH of destruction.
We can visit the place of Sodom and Gomorrah today and see the aftermath of its destruction.
This leaves us an EXAMPLE of what we read about in how these cities were destroyed by eternal fire from Heaven.
In other words, the eternal fire in Jude 1:7 is the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because it was an example to those living during that time period and it is an example to us today (Because we can visit that place and see it’s destruction).
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Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
So this is what we would call an ad hominem. Nowhere did I say that I don’t believe in eternal life. You are falsely accusing me of that. In fact, I believe in eternal life. John 3:16 contrasts “everlasting life” with the word “perish.” To perish is to be destroyed or erased from existence (from its previous state). For if I burn a piece of paper, it has perished and becomes ash and smoke.
Exodus 40:15 says,
"And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.""
The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15), that is-until-it was superseded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).
So if we are to take your interpretation that “everlasting punishment” in Matthew 25:46 refers to punishment for all eternity, then that means that the Aaronic priesthood is still ongoing today, and Christ who is of a different priesthood order, has not superseded it.
So I ask you:
How do you read the words “everlasting priesthood” in Exodus 40:15?
Do you believe the Aaronic priesthood is everlasting and will continue for eternity?
Please do not dodge these questions.
Side Note:
Jude 1:3 says,
”Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation,
it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that
ye should earnestly contend for the faith
which was once delivered unto the saints.”
Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).
This would be defending the Bible in what it says in all places when challenged (if you are capable of doing so).
So this is why I challenge you to explain the words “everlasting priesthood” in Exodus 40:15.
It’s your responsibility as a believer to contend for the faith and give a proper answer to this.
Otherwise, you are simply doing this…
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Behold
Well-Known Member
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
John 3:36 needs to be read in light of this verse:
Romans 1:32
"Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."
Romans 1:32
"Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."
Behold
Well-Known Member
The Cross of Christ is God wrapped in human flesh, virgin born....... being judged for this...
"all have sinned".
Recognize it yet?
Who is that?
Its You.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
To all:
When folks on the one side have to resort to unfounded personal attacks instead of explaining things, that really shows the weakness in their argument and their lack of maturity in Christ; in other words, it does not bode well for a person's position or belief when they do things like this.
When folks on the one side have to resort to unfounded personal attacks instead of explaining things, that really shows the weakness in their argument and their lack of maturity in Christ; in other words, it does not bode well for a person's position or belief when they do things like this.
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Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
@Jack
Numbers 15:15 (KJB) says,
This is in context to the animal sacrifices, as you can see here:
Source:
So how can the animal sacrifices be forever if Jesus was of a different priesthood order (The Melchizedek Priesthood) (Hebrews 7:14-18), and Christ is now our Passover Lamb (1 Corinthians 5:7)?
In other words, if we are to take the words "forever" as meaning for all eternity, it sets up a contradiction in the Bible. So we must rightly divide and realize that the word "forever" does not always mean "forever" in the literal sense perpetually. Meaning it is only forever in context to how long it was intended to last or within the bounds of something temporal.
Take, for example, Philemon 1:15: Paul mentioned to Philemon how Onesimus would return to him (his master) forever. Obviously, Onesimus is not an immortal man still living on Earth with his master (Philemon) today. He was returning back to his master forever within the context of their temporary lives on Earth.
Side Note:
As for my mention of the animal sacrifices being forever according to Numbers 15:15: Please keep in mind that the animal sacrifices from the Old Testament CANNOT continue for all eternity.
1 Corinthians 15:26 says, "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
Revelation 21:4 says, "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."
Numbers 15:15 (KJB) says,
"One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation,
and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you,
an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are,
so shall the stranger be before the LORD."
This is in context to the animal sacrifices, as you can see here:
Source:
So how can the animal sacrifices be forever if Jesus was of a different priesthood order (The Melchizedek Priesthood) (Hebrews 7:14-18), and Christ is now our Passover Lamb (1 Corinthians 5:7)?
In other words, if we are to take the words "forever" as meaning for all eternity, it sets up a contradiction in the Bible. So we must rightly divide and realize that the word "forever" does not always mean "forever" in the literal sense perpetually. Meaning it is only forever in context to how long it was intended to last or within the bounds of something temporal.
Take, for example, Philemon 1:15: Paul mentioned to Philemon how Onesimus would return to him (his master) forever. Obviously, Onesimus is not an immortal man still living on Earth with his master (Philemon) today. He was returning back to his master forever within the context of their temporary lives on Earth.
Side Note:
As for my mention of the animal sacrifices being forever according to Numbers 15:15: Please keep in mind that the animal sacrifices from the Old Testament CANNOT continue for all eternity.
1 Corinthians 15:26 says, "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
Revelation 21:4 says, "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."
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Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Instead of just posting a meter (as your defense), please try and address the actual verses on this topic instead.
Take, for example, my last post to Jack involving Numbers 15:15 in post # 693. Are you man enough to deal with that verse in what it says? It is saying that the animal sacrifices are forever, and yet we know that cannot be so because death will come to an end, according to Scripture.
In other words, Numbers 15:15 is but one of many examples proving that the word "forever" (and its related words) does not always mean forever in the most wooden literalistic way.
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Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Challenging you to see if you are man enough to do something good as a part of the faith is not the same as making unfounded gross accusations that are a personal attack. One particular poster judged my salvation as a part of this topic, and I believe that is crossing the line. I do not believe this topic is a salvation issue. Granted, there are groups who hold to Conditional Immortality, like Jehovah's Witnesses (who are a cult and not saved), but even a blind squirrel can find a nut (Meaning, even cult-like groups can discover a nugget of truth in the Bible even though they are in gross error overall).
Anyways, I am not attacking you. I am challenging you. There is a difference.
A person is "man enough" if they explain things in the Bible by earnestly contending for the faith.
So the accusation only applies if you don't take up the challenge. Therefore, I was not making any UNFOUNDED accusations. It is a conditional statement.
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Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Saying that the heresy of not believing in Eternal Torment is on the "high scale mark" suggests that those who do not believe in Eternal Torment are not saved. Is this what you are suggesting? If so, that is a very serious charge and such a charge made by such a person also needs to be able to back up that charge by answering questions from their opponents (Who are desiring things to be explained logically). If not, it is simply this...
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Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
@Bible Highlighter
I won’t do this to scripture:
“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:46)
I won’t do this to scripture:
“And these shall go away into
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Yes, you do.
When you read Revelation 21:8, you do not consider this a literal death.
So in your version of Revelation 21:8, it would read like this:
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
But my Bible says this:
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).
Another example:
In Matthew 10:28, Jesus compares the "killing of the body by men" with His comparing how we are to fear Him who can destroy (kill) both body and soul in Gehenna (Gehenna fire). The analogy or parallel Jesus made is destroyed if one inserts ECT into this verse. This is what you must do.
There are other verses an ECT Christian would have to do this with, as well. I will post them again.
As for Matthew 25:46:
Well, it refers to a one-time punishment that has everlasting consequences.
The "everlasting punishment" refers to the "everlasting destruction" mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 1:9.
Something that has faced destruction is no more. You cannot keep destroying something for eternity. That makes no sense. 1 Corinthians 15:26 says the last enemy to be destroyed is death. This assumes that there are other enemies of God that will be destroyed, as well. But you don't read the word "destroyed," "death," or "destruction" in a literal way but a metaphorical way. You do this automatically without even thinking about it so as to protect ECT (Which is not fair justice).
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