Is Reincarnation baloney?

[Mr E]

But in the parable the fruitless tree represents a fruitless professor / fruitless unrepentant unbeliever.

I am the vine, you are the branches. Remain in me.

The seed of Abraham.

The seed of David. The root of David.

The branch.

The tree of life.

The fruit of the tree.

I don't know what you do with such terms when one denies such basic principles. It's mind boggling to me @Wrangler, and embarrassing for you.

 

[friend of]

I am the vine, you are the branches. Remain in me.

That was just a parable to teach us that Jesus is the Head of the Spiritual family of God. I don't believe it's talking about the Tree of Life that was in Eden before the Fall. But I can see why one would think that.

The seed of Abraham.

Talking about genetics.

 

[Wrangler]

The fruit of the tree.

I don't know what you do with such terms when one denies such basic principles. It's mind boggling to me @Wrangler, and embarrassing for you.

<sigh> Are you talking about the basic principles of our relationship to God and others OR false reincarnation eisegesis?

 

[St. SteVen]

There was a thread I saw recently. Was it here? The title said something like "What exactly is Jesus saving us from?"

I found the question to be rather profound because if people went to Heaven in the Old Testament, why the need for Jesus?

The answer is that most did not go to Heaven. They reincarnated. Jesus is saving us from that endless cycle.

Probably this thread? (by yours truly)

What did Jesus die to save us from?

I was raised evangelical, but find myself questioning much of what we were taught in church. This gets me in trouble with those, like me, who were raised to NEVER question the answers the church fed us. Questions, it seems are for unbelievers. A healthy skepticism is viewed as agnostic, or...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Mr E]

I think you're getting your wires crossed. I didn't explicitly state, to you, that anything you said was unbiblical. I was talking to @QuantumBit when I said that. And do you know why I said that? I'll tell you. I said that because he said, just now, that we, human beings, are the fallen angels.

Now, are we humans fallen angels? Because THAT is what I just called unbiblical.

Nice try.

He quoted scripture from Job, from Revelation and from Matthew, to which you said the following:

Hmm. Nah. I'll pass. This is completely unbiblical.

 

[Mr E]

I recall this bit.
But it doesn't really say the spirit is sent again.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 NIV
and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

That's exactly right. The physical body- the shell, the husk, the seed has no value of it's own accord. It is discarded and it decomposes and we bury it-- returning it to the ground where it came from. The LIFE that was in the seed is spiritual. And it returns to God where it came from.

Think about that. It came FROM God. It came from above. It descended from heaven, to earth. It already existed there, it came from there to here. It became that Life inside a seed and it matured and became a tree and at the end of that life, that life (that spirit) returned again to God from where it came and before Him it stands judgment for that life it lived.

 

[QuantumBit]

Probably this thread? (by yours truly)

What did Jesus die to save us from?

I was raised evangelical, but find myself questioning much of what we were taught in church. This gets me in trouble with those, like me, who were raised to NEVER question the answers the church fed us. Questions, it seems are for unbelievers. A healthy skepticism is viewed as agnostic, or...

www.christianityboard.com

Wow! What are the odds?

I am going to check it out.

 

[Mr E]

Here's are some general questions. (without getting into support)
- If reincarnation were true, how would it fit into the plan for humankind?
Perhaps this is on the eschatology side?
- How, or why, would these cycles end?
- What do they mean in reference to the final judgment?
One soul judged for multiple lifetimes? Or ???

Good questions. The same, or similar questions could and should be asked of other sets of beliefs... does orthodoxy provide solid answers to these questions?

- If reincarnation were true, how would it fit into the plan for humankind?

What is that plan? In the beginning we are told 'the plan' for mankind and it is this:

Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, after our likeness, so they may rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move on the earth.”

God created humankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them, male and female he created them.

God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply! Fill the earth and subdue it! Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and every creature that moves on the ground.” Then God said, “I now give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the entire earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the animals of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has living breath in it—I give every green plant for food.” It was so.
God saw all that he had made—and it was very good.

We are told in a second account in Genesis, that 'the plan' was to place man in the garden because there was no one to cultivate (work ) the ground. So-- The LORD God took the man and placed him in the orchard in Eden to care for it and to maintain it.

Like it or not-- that was God's plan for humankind. You might not find that satisfying, but God did-- "It was very good', He said.

How, or why, would these cycles end?

Age after age, season after season, summer and winter, springtime and harvest---- the cycles never end as long as the earth remains. (Gen 8:22) Eternal Life. Life everlasting. This is what scripture teaches. An age comes to an end, and with it, a new age begins.

- What do they mean in reference to the final judgment?

As others have pointed out-- you live your life and it is appointed to every man afterwards (you die) and your spirit faces judgment (the spirit returns to God). Books are opened (the record of your life-- the story of your human soul) and your life is weighed in the balance. If the balance tips in your favor- that is, the good outweighs the bad, you remain with Him in the kingdom. You enter into His service, a royal priesthood who are then sent as ministering spirits. In other words-- they continue on. They remain. Those who are weighed and found lacking-- God determines their fate. In His mercy, He considers your circumstances and judges fairly. That's the key point. He judges righteously and fairly. Like a Father disciplines a child he loves. Destruction? Well, I guess if it comes to that.... there is such a thing as "a bad seed." Also a fruitless branch. Those are cut off and thrown to the fire, not because God hates them, but because they don't fulfill His purposes. Not because He hates the branch, but because He loves the tree and it is for the good of the tree that it is pruned.


One soul judged for multiple lifetimes? Or ???

One life = one soul. Your soul is the record of your life, the story of your existence. Your spirit was sent by God-- breathed into you to minister and guide you along your (life/soul) path. Like a horse is led or guided and cared for by a horseman. The spirit of God is upon us and yet it is us who determine the extent to which we respond. Each soul is judged at it's end. That is, the spirit is judged regarding the job it did with respect to that soul it was responsible for. The soul is the mere record of that experience. Victorious spirits (who overcome the world) are given honor as champions, having run the race well and they remain in His rest until they are called to run again in His service. Multiple lifetimes? Yes, of course. Life eternal. For the runner who runs well, it is a joy to run again for Him.

 

[Mr E]

That was just a parable to teach us that Jesus is the Head of the Spiritual family of God. I don't believe it's talking about the Tree of Life that was in Eden before the Fall. But I can see why one would think that.

The tree of life is the family tree of all humanity. The LIFE of the tree of life is in the One we call our Father-- God and all life comes from Him.

The book of life is a record of all who remain alive and a part of that tree of life. It has the names of everyone who remains alive and who are judged worthy to remain, in that they continue to produce fruit, season after season. If this isn't the case, your name is erased from the book of life and you are cut off from the tree of life and reserved for the fire, to remain no more.

 

[Nancy]

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Oh Patrick, now you're just taking this comment OUT of context to make it seem I agree there are mythical creatures that are spoken of in the bible, they are simply one horned beasts IMHO. tsk tsk!!

 

[Mr E]

To the one who conquers, I will give him some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and on that stone will be written a new name that no one can understand except the one who receives it.’

Who are you? -they asked....

So they asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not!” “Are you the Prophet?” He answered, “No.”
Then they said to him, “Who are you? Tell us so that we can give an answer to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?”

But with respect to John, Jesus said--

And if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah, who was to come.


The white stone is a pure, unblemished- new human soul. Given to an overcomer who is sent in spirit-- given a new name known only to the one who receives it. The same spirit that was sent to Elijah (and given that name) was sent also to John-- (and given that name).

 

[friend of]

The tree of life is the family tree of all humanity. The LIFE of the tree of life is in the One we call our Father-- God and all life comes from Him.

The book of life is a record of all who remain alive and a part of that tree of life. It has the names of everyone who remains alive and who are judged worthy to remain, in that they continue to produce fruit, season after season. If this isn't the case, your name is erased from the book of life and you are cut off from the tree of life and reserved for the fire, to remain no more.

Then how would you interpret scripture in Rev that says that people will eat of the fruit of the tree of life? Cannibalism in heaven?

 

[St. SteVen]

Thanks for your explanations. This is helpful.

The Church teaches Christians to change the words of Genesis 2:17 to say 'Spiritual Death'... whatever that means... in order to hide reincarnation from being understood in the passages.

As I understand it, these are two verses that talk about 'Spiritual Death'. But not in reference to A&E.
I don't think this is in reference to physical death.

• Ephesians 2:1
  As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
  
  
• Colossians 2:13
  When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

 

[QuantumBit]

We are told in a second account in Genesis, that 'the plan' was to place man in the garden because there was no one to cultivate (work ) the ground. So-- The LORD God took the man and placed him in the orchard in Eden to care for it and to maintain it.

Just for the record, I believe that the above has a deeper meaning.

The whole 'cultivating' theme was about helping God create Life from the dust of the ground. In other words, Adam and his Wife were being tested to see if they were responsible enough to share the same power as God and form animals as God does. The test was the Forbidden Fruit. They failed, and now they must learn the lesson the hard way.

• 'Seed' becomes symbolic of future children.
• 'Planting Seed' becomes symbolic of procreation.
• 'Fruit' becomes symbolic of children.

All throughout the OT, God was trying to teach the Israelites how to create Life as he does and share in the joys and lessons that come from it. Sadly, the Israelites did not understand this, and so Jesus was sent.

The main goal in the Old Testament was for Mankind to save himself through Genetic Engineering. The Israelites were 'Chosen' to accomplish this task. They were to create the Glorified Body on their own. They blew it.

The Tabernacles and Temples were scale models of Ovum (our Bodies from conception). The lessons learned would have lead to more advanced DNA augmentation until the Glorified Body was achieved...

​

 

[QuantumBit]

Thanks for your explanations. This is helpful.

As I understand it, these are two verses that talk about 'Spiritual Death'. But not in reference to A&E.
I don't think this is in reference to physical death.

• Ephesians 2:1
  As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
  
  
• Colossians 2:13
  When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

This will sound crazy, but I take those verses literally, as in we were physically dead in a past life.

The reason I have to take the verses literally is because if I do not, I would be in contradiction with this verse...

1 Corinthians 15:36
"Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die"

Only that which is physically dead can be quickened. Moreover, there is a new Body afterwards.

For example:

1 Peter 3:18
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit"

Death in the flesh is very specific. Only after physical death can the Body be quickened and a new Body created.

 

[St. SteVen]

We are told in a second account in Genesis, that 'the plan' was to place man in the garden because there was no one to cultivate (work ) the ground. So-- The LORD God took the man and placed him in the orchard in Eden to care for it and to maintain it.

Wow, what translation is that? "... the orchard in Eden..."
Someone finally fixed that problem. The GARDEN of Eden? ???
What were they saying about inerrancy? - LOL

Like it or not-- that was God's plan for humankind. You might not find that satisfying, but God did-- "It was very good', He said.

Imagine what church/Christianity would be like if that was the agreed upon plan.

 

[QuantumBit]

Then how would you interpret scripture in Rev that says that people will eat of the fruit of the tree of life? Cannibalism in heaven?

New Jerusalem is the 'Mother of us all'. More specifically, New Jerusalem is symbolic of the Womb of Sarah.

The Tree of Life are her Ovum that are fertilized by the Living Waters proceeding from the Masculine Throne and the Lamb (Abraham's Seed). Her Fruit become Zygotes.

The whole scene is symbolic of procreation.

Do not believe me?

Look...

Revelation 22:2
"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."

The Tree of Life is a HER. She bears Fruit on a Monthly Period. Understand? We are talking about Menstrual Cycles here.

The Saved enter her Yoni Gates and partake to be conceived into the Glorified Body.

Thus, eating the Flesh of Jesus and drinking his Blood (eating the Fruit of the Tree of Life) is the opposite of what Adam and Eve did. It is the opposite of the Forbidden Fruit which is the contents of the Golden Cup...

Revelation 17:4
"And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:"

The contents in the cup are LITERAL, as in 'Love Juices'. It is not 'doctrines of debils', or whatever nonsense the Church teaches these days.

Again, the Unsaved drink yet again to be born out of the lowest parts of the Earth. It is called 'Mystery of Iniquity'.

 

[Mr E]

Then how would you interpret scripture in Rev that says that people will eat of the fruit of the tree of life? Cannibalism in heaven?

The absurdity.

There are no "people" in heaven. It's spiritual, not physical.

But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” Fool! What you sow will not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare seed —perhaps of wheat or something else. But God gives it a body just as he planned, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. All flesh is not the same: People have one flesh, animals have another, birds and fish another. And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies.

 

[Mr E]

Wow, what translation is that? "... the orchard in Eden..."
Someone finally fixed that problem. The GARDEN of Eden? ???
What were they saying about inerrancy? - LOL

It's from the Net translation. Sorry, but it's not inaccurate in any way.... an orchard is a kind of garden where fruit trees grow.

The Hebrew word is gan. It refers specifically to a fenced garden.

God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: plants yielding seeds and trees on the land bearing fruit with seed in it, according to their kinds.” It was so. The land produced vegetation—plants yielding seeds according to their kinds, and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. God saw that it was good.

 

[St. SteVen]

- What do they mean in reference to the final judgment?

As others have pointed out-- you live your life and it is appointed to every man afterwards (you die) and your spirit faces judgment (the spirit returns to God). Books are opened (the record of your life-- the story of your human soul) and your life is weighed in the balance. If the balance tips in your favor- that is, the good outweighs the bad, you remain with Him in the kingdom. You enter into His service, a royal priesthood who are then sent as ministering spirits. In other words-- they continue on. They remain. Those who are weighed and found lacking-- God determines their fate. In His mercy, He considers your circumstances and judges fairly. That's the key point. He judges righteously and fairly. Like a Father disciplines a child he loves. Destruction? Well, I guess if it comes to that.... there is such a thing as "a bad seed." Also a fruitless branch. Those are cut off and thrown to the fire, not because God hates them, but because they don't fulfill His purposes. Not because He hates the branch, but because He loves the tree and it is for the good of the tree that it is pruned.

This explanation finds a good middle ground. Even as a UR advocate I could live with this. Makes sense. Thanks.
The human tendency is to flop from one extreme to another. I am being pointed to the middle lately.