LIMITED ATONEMENT: US vs THEM (the L of TULIP)

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

They will not choose God though because they can not do that. They are like mental cases in a psyche ward, blinded to their awful state of existence. Believing in Christ to them is a crazier idea than their current state of believing the lie of Satan in the world, so they mock it. This world is their experience as they are carnally minded people, not spiritually minded. People must be born again first or they will not believe in Christ, as the spiritually dead can not see or understand or percieve the kingdom of God in Christ.

SEEING here is not entering.
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born [a]again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

And 2 Corinthians 4 expands on this spiritual blindness more.

Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor [a]handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

All sinner must first be convicted by God the Holy Spirit, that they are lost and hell-bound, and in need for the ONLY Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ; and that they must first repent of their sins, and have faith in Jesus Christ, and only then they will be saved, born-again. Jesus says in John 16, that the Coming of the Holy Spirit, is to "convict the whole world of sin...because they do not believe on Him". When Peter preached his frist sermon in Acts chapter 2, those who heard his Gospel Message, were "cut to the heart" (verse 37), which is exactly what Jesus means in John 16, "convicted". It is only then that they say to Peter, "what must we do?", to which Peter replies, REPENT....for the forgiveness of your sins".

No sinner can and will of their own, ever "seek" the True God of the Bible, they must be "convicted" by the Holy Spirit of the Truths as Taught in God's Word, of their lostness, and their urgent need for Jesus Christ as their Saviour and Lord.

 

[Scott Downey]

All sinner must first be convicted by God the Holy Spirit, that they are lost and hell-bound, and in need for the ONLY Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ; and that they must first repent of their sins, and have faith in Jesus Christ, and only then they will be saved, born-again. Jesus says in John 16, that the Coming of the Holy Spirit, is to "convict the whole world of sin...because they do not believe on Him". When Peter preached his frist sermon in Acts chapter 2, those who heard his Gospel Message, were "cut to the heart" (verse 37), which is exactly what Jesus means in John 16, "convicted". It is only then that they say to Peter, "what must we do?", to which Peter replies, REPENT....for the forgiveness of your sins".

No sinner can and will of their own, ever "seek" the True God of the Bible, they must be "convicted" by the Holy Spirit of the Truths as Taught in God's Word, of their lostness, and their urgent need for Jesus Christ as their Saviour and Lord.

You can not misuse that verse in that way.
IT has nothing to do with salvation, just a convicting condemnation OF THE WORLD.

The Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin as they DO NOT BELIEVE in Christ....

 

[Scott Downey]

Quote it all and maybe you see this,
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Nothing in here of salvation of unbelievers. just the opposite. And they will see Christ no more...as He has gone to the Father, He goes to a place that they cannot go (heaven) which will prove to the world He is as HE said, The Son of God in the flesh, and they rejected Him so then they will be judged and cast into hell

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

You can not misuse that verse in that way.
IT has nothing to do with salvation, just a convicting condemnation OF THE WORLD.

The Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin as they DO NOT BELIEVE in Christ....

what do you think "BELIEVE on Jesus Christ" means? This is for all sinners to do!

In Mark 1:15, Jesus says, "REPENT and BELIEVE in the Gospel"

In Romans 10, Pauls is very clear that BELIEVING in Jesus is for salvation:

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

In Acts 16, Paul tells the Philippian jailer, "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (31)

So, when Jesus says in John 16, that the Holy Spirit is "CONVICTING" the human race of "SIN...because they do not BELIEVE in Me", He is clearly saying that these are LOST till they ACCEPT Him as their personal Saviour.

Note, Jesus mentions SIN and BELIEF for what the Holy Spirit is convicting the human race of. these are clearly in relation to SALVATION!

 

[Scott Downey]

what do you think "BELIEVE on Jesus Christ" means? This is for all sinners to do!

In Mark 1:15, Jesus says, "REPENT and BELIEVE in the Gospel"

In Romans 10, Pauls is very clear that BELIEVING in Jesus is for salvation:

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

In Acts 16, Paul tells the Philippian jailer, "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (31)

So, when Jesus says in John 16, that the Holy Spirit is "CONVICTING" the human race of "SIN...because they do not BELIEVE in Me", He is clearly saying that these are LOST till they ACCEPT Him as their personal Saviour.

Note, Jesus mentions SIN and BELIEF for what the Holy Spirit is convicting the human race of. these are clearly in relation to SALVATION!

Well, since you continue to ignore and distort scripture of which I have shown much, I will ignore you too, cannot make you see your folly here, only God can do that and give you a heart that understands.

Why do you despise the scripture so much that you create your own religion about Christ and God?

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Well, since you continue to ignore and distort scripture of which I have shown much, I will ignore you too, cannot make you see your folly here, only God can do that and give you a heart that understands.

Why do you despise the scripture so much that you create your own religion about Christ and God?

Cheers, I am gladly a fool for Jesus!

 

[Scott Downey]

People say faith first then comes the grace!
People do not comprehend what grace is scripturally, but they do have their own ideas.

 

[Scott Downey]

An example
26 So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. 27 And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace; 28 for he vigorously refuted the Jews publicly, showing from the Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ.

 

[Scott Downey]

Grace first, faith second, not the other way round.
The reason anyone has faith is accordingly due to God's grace towards them, on their behalf.
And this make the promise of eternal salvation sure.
And not all have faith do they, so it stands to reason neither did they have His grace.

Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

 

[Scott Downey]

Romans 11:5
Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Not of their will were they born of God

John 1
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His [c]own, and His [d]own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the [e]right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

But see to those who have no understanding, to them the flesh profits them to salvation, by their will in their flesh they believe in Christ before a man is saved they are just natural men who make the right choice, but that is not scriptural.

 

[Scott Downey]

Grace first, then a measure of faith comes second. Even that faith is a gift of God.
Romans 12:3

​

For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

1 Corinthians 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Ephesians 2:5
even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

2 Timothy 1
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

 

[MatthewG]

John, the beloved also reveals things in revelation. It’s called revelation, chapter 21 and 22 whatever you make of those things is between you and God, not between you and me.

It’s obvious there are people that are gonna be outside of the kingdom.

Therefore, we agree.

That when it comes to the lake, a fire, I believe only people have their part in it, and they’re not there forever as some people say.

That is a matter for you and God handle between you and him of what you truly believe about those things.

Cause I’m not here to debate I don’t care what you may believe as that naturally does not involve me and involves individual personal relationship with God, and looking and reading, and studying the word if a person is desires of truth, being guided, of course, by the Holy Spirit, or the spirit of Christ.

 

[Scott Downey]

Titus 2:11

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, (the whole earth of men as a witness)

Titus 3:7
that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

1 Peter 1:10
Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you,

 

[MatthewG]

Oh scripture yay

 

[atpollard]

Rev 7:9 does not even reference the atonement. It is actually a picture of heaven and John sees a host of believers from all corners of the world.

Revelation 7:9 DOES reference the saving of a multitude from ”every nation …” which is what the atonement ACCOMPLISHED. It is a Biblical definition of ”the world” that does not mean “every person without exception” and imply UNIVERSALISM as some definitions of “world” and “atonement” embrace.

 

[atpollard]

Christ did not cleanse a single sin(s) by His Atonement, save possibly the Thief. Your view actually eliminates the whole function of Christ being our High Priest and upon repentance and confession of sin will forgive our sins because He was the sacrifice for those sins.

Respectfully, I am not here to convince you of Biblical Truth (that is the job of the Holy Spirit and I am not He). You requested a definition and explanation of what the term “Limited Atonement“ meant and how it worked. I provided a definition and an explanation.

You are free to disbelieve any and all Truths with my blessings.
My responsibility was to explain it to you, not to believe it for you.

 

[atpollard]

This passage destroys the TULI in TULIP!

Isn’t it fascinating how EVERYONE that rejects TULIP claims at least ONLE of the Doctrines is Biblical and Correct but then presents verses (typically plucked from context) to prove that the other LETTERS are non-Biblical and Incorrect … yet they seldom agree with each other about which letter is BIBLICAL and which are Non-Biblical.

One of those TRUTH IS STRANGER THAN FICTION moments.
I suspect they are all partially correct that at least one of the letters is BIBLICAL … all of them.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the world Propitiation is not the same as atonment.
When ones sins are atoned for- they are removed! When someone makes propitiation for someone's sins- it is an acceptable sacrifice for them.

WRONG.
Your sins are only forgiven when you repent and asj for forgiveness.

Acts 3:19
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out

 

[BreadOfLife]

… but apparently it has learned apologetics from reading “Animal Farm”.

Care to elaborate?

You guys and your cowardly "hit-and-run" posts . . .

 

[Rightglory]

Revelation 7:9 DOES reference the saving of a multitude from ”every nation …” which is what the atonement ACCOMPLISHED. It is a Biblical definition of ”the world” that does not mean “every person without exception” and imply UNIVERSALISM as some definitions of “world” and “atonement” embrace.

The atonement and the purpose of the atonement are two different things. However you still have not shown how the atonement can be limited.
I gave you two questions, can you answer them? If you can then you have provided evidence of a limited atonement.