No More Death

[Earburner]

This is an incorrect assumption on your part. No one inherits the kingdom without being saved in Christ.

Don't twist my words!!
It was you that said in post 715: "The seal of God in Rev is not what other scriptures are talking about."

I say: the "seal" is exactly the same thing through out NT scripture.

 

[ewq1938]

Don't twist my words!!
It was you that said in post 715: "The seal of God in Rev is not what other scriptures are talking about."

I say: the "seal" is exactly the same thing through out NT scripture.

lol...so you think wax seals on a book in Rev are the same seals in people? Maybe you should re-think the idea that somehow all seals are "the same thing through out NT scripture".

The truth is that there are different types of seals through out NT scripture.

 

[Earburner]

The seal of the 144k is something given to them because of the GT.




This is an incorrect assumption on your part. No one inherits the kingdom without being saved in Christ.





Nothing in the bible supports any of that. We are shown that they are with Christ on a mountain that is located near Jerusalem. This is clearly post-second coming.





Nothing in the bible supports a symbolic definition of the 144k. They are exactly as described, 144k people from the 12 tribes.

Unfortunately, many are not paying attention to the first verse of Rev. 1
You are neglecting all symbolism that is "signification" by the Lord.
Rev. 1[1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent AND signified* it by his angel unto his servant John:

* "signified"- Strongs G4591- to show by a sign, or signs.
Also known as: through symbolism and/or by coding.

Paul agrees to that methodology for interpreting scripture: 1 Cor. 2
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

[Earburner]

lol...so you think wax seals on a book in Rev are the same seals in people? Maybe you should re-think the idea that somehow all seals are "the same thing through out NT scripture".

The truth is that there are different types of seals through out NT scripture.

I am perceiving, and I hope that I'm wrong, that you are not understanding how a saint is "sealed" unto the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit of God.

 

[Earburner]

lol...so you think wax seals on a book in Rev are the same seals in people? Maybe you should re-think the idea that somehow all seals are "the same thing through out NT scripture".

The truth is that there are different types of seals through out NT scripture.

What???
Right there in your quote.^ Those are your words, from your thoughts about "wax seals". That IS NOT anything that I am even thinking about or saying. Those are YOUR thoughts. None of that has entered my mind, until YOU wrote it.
Please stop confusing the issue.

For me, your view is literally too literal, and in the extreme.
Sorry, but I must ask: Are you "born again" of God's Holy Spirit, or are you just spending your time going to church, learning and following their particular pet doctrines?

 

[Earburner]

The seal of the 144k is something given to them because of the GT.




This is an incorrect assumption on your part. No one inherits the kingdom without being saved in Christ.





Nothing in the bible supports any of that. We are shown that they are with Christ on a mountain that is located near Jerusalem. This is clearly post-second coming.





Nothing in the bible supports a symbolic definition of the 144k. They are exactly as described, 144k people from thex 12 tribes.

I have given all the scriptural support, by the Holy Spirit, that anyone should need.

In the following:
hear what is being said IN Christ's words:
"Hear WHAT the SPIRIT is saying to the churches".
Christ did NOT say:
Hear WHAT SCRIPTURE ONLY is saying to the churches.

Many professing Christians interpret the Bible, having only an understanding through the mind of their "natural man", "the man of sin".
Therefore, not many are understanding the Bible through "the mind of Christ",...that is, if He is within them. The parable of The Ten Virgins explains all of that.

EDIT: you are superimposing the fabricated doctrine of "THE Great Tribulation" by "church-ianity", over the words: "of great tribulation". The two statements have two different understandings. By using the word "The" denotes a specific time period, whereas by using the word "of", there is no specific time being pointed to.
Rev. 7
[14] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out OF great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[ewq1938]

EDIT: you are superimposing the fabricated doctrine of "THE Great Tribulation" by "church-ianity", over the words: "of great tribulation". The two statements have two different understandings. By using the word "The" denotes a specific time period, whereas by using the word "of", there is no specific time being pointed to.
Rev. 7
[14] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out OF great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The specific time of THE great trib is here:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

 

[Earburner]

The specific time of THE great trib is here:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Well of course, Mat. 24 are the Lord's prophetic words, concerning some of the manifestations of when and how that which is "of great tribulation" shall come to pass in the world.

But, as I have shown in my previous post #703, whether in the earth, in heaven, by His Spirit, or that which is spiritually revealed by Him to our understanding,
Prophecy without manifestions,
is vain and empty, being void of the Holy Spirit of God, and therefore comes to nothing.

In your scripture selections of Mat. 24, you began with verse 21 to 29, when you should've begun in verse 1 to 29.
To start midstream in the context of the topic, is not wise.

Not only that, but it appears that you have not taken into consideration the words in Mark and Luke about the topic "of great tribulation". However, I have no doubt that you have read the accounts in Mark and Luke also.

So then, we must not put our whole emphasis on Matthew alone for interpretation, since Mark and Luke are also the words of Christ, as the Holy Spirit gave to them for understanding.

Again, prophecy without the manifestations following, is nothing.
Therefore, until we can spiritually discern by the Lord's revelation through His Holy Spirit in us, as to what the manifestions were, are and/or shall be, we may discover that some have already come to pass.

To neglect that depth of thinking, while "having the mind of Christ" within us, but then to only dwell on His literal words, is like groping around in a dense fog.
We are to look for the reasoning of His mind about His own words, and not that of our own human reasonings.

Jesus did say: John 6[63] It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth NOTHING; the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Since the words that Jesus spoke are spirit, then we can safely conclude that those words are Eternal, and if Eternal, then He is very capable of speaking in the past, present and future all at the same time.
This is precisely why it is that we need to "have the mind (spirit) of Christ" within us.
John 3:3-8, Rom. 8:8-9.

My replies to this topic will be mainly based on Matthew, Mark and Luke, as well as some of OT scripture and the epistles in the NT.
So, let's go back to Mat. 24:1 and take it from there.

 

[ewq1938]

Not only that, but it appears that you have not taken into consideration the words in Mark and Luke about the topic "of great tribulation". However, I have no doubt that you have read the accounts in Mark and Luke also.

So then, we must not put our whole emphasis on Matthew alone for interpretation, since Mark and Luke are also the words of Christ, as the Holy Spirit gave to them for understanding.

When one quotes from a book in the bible they are not also denying what is written in other books. That is a strawman fallacy on your part.

 

[Earburner]

When one quotes from a book in the bible they are not also denying what is written in other books. That is a strawman fallacy on your part.

I don't know your focus of study habits, nor do I know how long you have been walking in the Lord. I am just making the point that Mat. 24 is for most people, the "go to" scripture to launch a barrage of proof to support their belief system. They stand on Mat. 24, as if the accounts given by Mark 13:1-33 and Luke 21:1-28 are not directive enough to qualify, in the presenting of their theory of "THE Great Tribulation" for 7 years, which of course is derived from a false understanding of Daniel 9:26-27.

 

[ewq1938]

They stand on Mat. 24, as if the accounts given by Mark 13:1-33 and Luke 21:1-28 are not directive enough to qualify

This is an assumption you make based on nothing valid. Quoting Matthew does not mean anyone thinks less of other gospels. This is nothing but your own personal strawman fallacy.

 

[Earburner]

This is an assumption you make based on nothing valid. Quoting Matthew does not mean anyone thinks less of other gospels. This is nothing but your own personal strawman fallacy.

Instead of accusing me of unfounded faults, and cutting my post #730 short, why don't you simply address my full post and help me and others here to understand your position on Daniel 9:26-27?

The remainder of my post #730 is a fact, and not an assumption. I have reposted it in the following:
"....in the presenting of their theory of "THE Great Tribulation" for 7 years, which of course is derived from a false understanding of Daniel 9:26-27."

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Rev. 21[4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Did you know that for the born again Christian, in the Spirit, this is true?
Jesus said this in KJV John 11[25] Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
[26] And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
1 John 5:12-13.

Yes indeed, there shall be no more death.
Though our mortal bodies go into the graves (hell-the pit), we who are saved-sealed in Jesus, shall spiritually never die.

So then, since this is true, that there shall be no more death for the saved, can we say the same for the UNsaved, who know not God and do not obey the gospel of God?? 2 Thes. 1:7-10, Luke 17:28-30
YES, we can!

In the Day of Jesus' return from Heaven, in flaming fire and the fulness of His Immortality, all the unsaved shall be burned up, destroyed DEAD.
Therefore, there will be no one left alive to pro-create the human race.
Voila! "No more death", because there will be no more births.

So there you have it, there shall be no more death,....ever again, for both the saved and the unsaved. Death will have been completely vanquished, upon that day, "when He shall come to be glorified in His saints"

To me no more death, means is no more condemnation in the Spirit of God. No more reaping of the wages death, but inheritance of the reward of Life. To bear the fruit of Christ which remains and is not destroyed. This is how I see His wiping away their tears for rejoicing. Of His coming to be glorified in them. That alone begs the question “how is He glorified in them?” Is it not their having put on bowels of mercy and the fruit of the Spirit of God. As Paul said they knew he was one who had persecuted the way of Faith in times past and had destroyed it, but now he who had destroyed it now preached the Faith he once destroyed. And they gloried God in him. Consider that with “no more death”. Paul who once destroyed the way of Life, now preached the Life he once destroyed. Sounds like no more death to me.

 

[Earburner]

To me no more death, means is no more condemnation in the Spirit of God. No more reaping of the wages death, but inheritance of the reward of Life. To bear the fruit of Christ which remains and is not destroyed. This is how I see His wiping away their tears for rejoicing. Of His coming to be glorified in them. That alone begs the question “how is He glorified in them?” Is it not their having put on bowels of mercy and the fruit of the Spirit of God. As Paul said they knew he was one who had persecuted the way of Faith in times past and had destroyed it, but now he who had destroyed it now preached the Faith he once destroyed. And they gloried God in him. Consider that with “no more death”. Paul who once destroyed the way of Life, now preached the Life he once destroyed. Sounds like no more death to me.

Yes, that is the evidence of Paul's conversion to Christ.

Jesus Himself is "the way" of faith, and not anything else. KJV John 14:6.

1. For born again Christians, in that Day, we shall put on immortaliy. KJV 1 John 5:12-13 says it all for us.
2. For all others, in that Day, they shall remain in their mortality. KJV 1 Thes. 4:7-10 says it all for them.

So, in both cases, there will be no more death.
In that Day of His Glorious return, it will be redemption for us and destruction for all others.
It will be a simultaneous event.
Luke 17:28-30.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Yes, that is the evidence of Paul's conversion to Christ.

Jesus Himself is "the way" of faith, and not anything else. KJV John 14:6.

1. For born again Christians, in that Day, we shall put on immortaliy. KJV 1 John 5:12-13 says it all for us.
2. For all others, in that Day, they shall remain in their mortality. KJV 1 Thes. 4:7-10 says it all for them.

So, in both cases, there will be no more death.
In that Day of His Glorious return, it will be redemption for us and destruction for all others.
It will be a simultaneous event.
Luke 17:28-30.

HIs Glorious return … His body having put on the glorious fruit of the Spirit of God by Christ that you be not unfruitful in the knowledge of Christ…to be Clothed in the New man after Christ; God glorified in the Clothing of peace, joy, long-suffering, mercy, grace, temperance, brotherly love, and truth. What will this clothing do … will it transform the whole Body of which the Clothing of the New Man; His Fruit clothes. To be as He Is.

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.


Tecarta Bible App

 

[Earburner]

HIs Glorious return … His body having put on the glorious fruit of the Spirit of God by Christ that you be not unfruitful in the knowledge of Christ…to be Clothed in the New man after Christ; God glorified in the Clothing of peace, joy, long-suffering, mercy, grace, temperance, brotherly love, and truth. What will this clothing do … will it transform the whole Body of which the Clothing of the New Man; His Fruit clothes. To be as He Is.

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.


Tecarta Bible App

Amen..."Victory",... victory for sure!

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus KNEW that the Pharisees were hearing his teaching to the disciples. Teaching through parables, is a very constructive way to speak to others indirectly, when the audience you are speaking directly to, is in a public area.
You and I are doing that right now.
Our conversation here is being directed towards each other, but indirectly, it is being listened to by others.

Now, in the parable of the Rm&L, what was the single truth that Jesus wanted ALL to know? Please answer the question.

I am not going to answer a question based on your own premise that goes against the ability of Jesus to actually explain things literally.

If you have something to say, say it. It is not a parable, and every word literally happened. Jesus is all knowing when speaking as Lord. But if you are convinced it was just a story to give us a single truth, how am I supposed to read your mind or change God's Word according to some theological point?

 

[Timtofly]

The 144,000 is symbolic of all of Israel who were of faith, being under the altar of the OC. All of such, by faith, were looking for "the Promise" that was to come, who is Jesus.

Their names were written in the "Book of, Remembrance" in Malachi 3:16.

Because the Holy Spirit of God Himself was not yet given to them, none of them had received the permanent gift of God's Holy Spirit, though He would visit them often.
But, after the resurrection and ascension of Jesus (the Firstborn from the dead), in Rev. 6:9-11 we see God doing so, by the symbolism of "white robes" being given to each one, thus having their "names written in the Lamb's Book of Life" also, which is just a symbolic way of saying that they now have the gift of eternal life, and are in Jesus, aka the KoG. 1 John 5:12-13.
To be IN Jesus, IS to be IN the KoG.

Yes! They, who were Israel of faith, are the first fruits. Rev. 14:1-5

Ok, but you seem to be limiting those redeemed to a select few individuals.

 

[Timtofly]

Please go find His singular truth that He wants ALL to know in the parable of the Rm&L. Luke 16:31.

Obviously you still don't think Lazarus rose from Abraham's bosom, and was given a permanent incorruptible physical body, and has been enjoying Paradise since Resurrection Sunday. Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life.

 

[Timtofly]

In Rev. 14 From where were the 144,000 coming from, when John saw them?
Rev. 14
[1] And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
[2] And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
[3] And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
[4] These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
1 Cor. 15
[20] But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.See Rev. 6:9-11.

They are the firstfruits of the Day of the Lord, not the New Testament.

The disciples and those on the day of Pentecost are the New Testament firstfruits.

All the OT redeemed, waiting in Abraham's bosom were the firstfruits of Paradise. After Lazarus, all were made alive at the Cross, and entered Paradise with Jesus on Sunday morning. Way more than 144,000 from Israel. There were converts from all nations waiting in Abraham's bosom.

Just the same as way more of Jacob were not in Abraham's bosom, but tormented in sheol, many from other nations were also redeemed, though only a small percentage. But certainly more than 144,000 over the span of 2500 years since the Flood, were waiting in Abraham's bosom.

The 144k have not been sealed yet. They will be sealed after the Second Coming in the 6th Seal, and before the 7th Seal is opened. Just like the original 12 disciples in the first century, they will go every where Jesus goes during the first 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders. They are the firstfruits of the final harvest of the sheep and goat judgment (Matthew 25), and the wheat and tares (Matthew 13). The sheep and goats are judged during the Trumpets. The wheat and tares gathered during the Thunders.


The 144,000 are the GT disciples like the first 12 were the Messianic disciples. Jesus sits as King during the GT.

Revelation 14 shows them waiting on mount Zion during the 42 months, Satan is sitting as God on the throne of Jesus. The 42 months of the Abomination of desolation, is the last 42 months before the Millennium starts. The only two redeemed on earth at that point are the 2 witnesses.

These 144k should be the camp of the saints surrounding Jerusalem during the Millennium. They will always be with Jesus throughout the Millennium as the firstfruits in that kingdom on earth as the premier representatives and rulers. But the sheep will be the remnant of Israel. The wheat will represent all other nations and for many generations fill and subdue the earth.