No More Death

[Timtofly]

I say: the "seal" is exactly the same thing through out NT scripture.

Being sealed is one thing. How one is sealed is a totally separate issue. It is not putting on a robe of white. Do you currently have on that robe? You are currently sealed by the Holy Spirit in you. But the day of redemption is when you physically leave Adam's dead corruptible flesh in the dust.

Those currently in Paradise since the Cross, are sealed by already experiencing the first resurrection and they have a permanent incorruptible physical body.

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power."

That is all part of being sealed under the Atonement Covenant. Then there is the controversial 2nd birth. One that some think they can unbirth themselves from, and walk away from God's family, if that birth does not suit them. Being sealed by the Holy Spirit is the second birth. I guess some people think they can break that seal, along with removing themselves from that birth.

Some claim the second birth is not a choice but naturally happens like natural physical birth. That would be the reversal of universalism, and wrong, as all were redeemed, but most will reject the second birth. When it comes to the 144k, they have no choice in the matter. The only one who got his own way was Judas.

No other disciple chose to follow, nor did they choose to reject Jesus. Did Paul have a choice on the road to Damascus? Could Paul have walked away at any time and deny Christ? Even Peter who did deny his birth into God's family was not allowed to leave. The point about Judas, was that an exception to the rule, or did God allow an imposter to think he was a disciple, but never actually was, as an example of many who would later enter into the church as wolves in sheep's clothing? Was Paul the actual 12th disciple, one born out of due time, as well as the most vehement against the church one could get? An example of no matter what one's condition is, they can still come to Christ?

All are covered by the Atonement. All are named in the Lamb's book of life. Technically all would be redeemed, but not naturally. Redemption is against one's sinful nature. God does present the 2nd birth as a choice. Jesus saying you must be born again, is the same as saying you must make that choice. If Atonement was natural, then one would not do anything. The second birth is a personal choice, not a universal condition. Physical birth is universal and no choice involved. God chose every one to be saved but only a few will be redeemed without making that choice, and we know at least 144,012 people had no choice.

That is the problem with most people's view of the Second Coming and life after the Second Coming. People tend to view all humans as Christians even Adam and Eve. Then some try to divide up the redeemed into groups, and claim they all will be Christians someday. The term Christian was given to those who followed Christ. However it is limited in scope. The church today hardly follows Christ, much less the teachings of Christ. Most are Christians in name only, and many not even enjoying the second birth. So calling those who will live in the Millennium Christians is not technically correct. Jesus will not be Messiah only, but Prince. So not only a Christ follower, but a King follower. Those first century redeemed never seemed to push the King part and for good reason. Before Jesus can be one's king, they have to accept Him as Messiah.

It was the Lamb that was portrayed as the Atonement more than the Lord being the Atonement, although both are true. The redeemed have lived since Seth was born.

There is a time on earth when all were sons of God, and no one was redeemed, because sin was not in existence. Adam and Eve did not need to be redeemed prior to eating the fruit. They did not need to eat from the tree of life to maintain life. They were not sinners. They were not redeemed, nor in a state of death prior to Adam's disobedience. They were not Christians. They did not follow God. They were sons of God and part of God's created human family as sons of God. All humanity were sons of God in God's image as representation of God on earth in human flesh. They were created for that very purpose. There was no sin, and no one disobeyed God. It was not boring, it was creation, whole and complete.

That is how the Day of the Lord should be viewed as Holy and complete, set aside for God, just as that first Day of the Lord was, we call the 7th day. The first 1,000 years was the Day of the Lord. The last 1,000 years will be the Day of the Lord. People will not be redeemed, there will be no sin. What will be different as death is still the last enemy removed, will be instant death if there is disobedience. Not a life of death. Death as being relocated into Death. Not sheol, as John declares them two distinct locations.

"And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him."

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

When the 4th Seal is opened, Death is introduced separate from what we call death today. Seperate even from sheol. I think the LOF will be introduced at the Second Coming, as well. Sheol will no longer take souls. Those in sheol have not yet been removed from the Lamb's book of life. However after the 7th Seal is opened, people will be sent to either death or the LOF. Those judged at the Second Coming do not have to stand as dead after the Millennium at the GWT. They can literally be cast alive into the LOF at that judgment, while being removed from the Lamb's book of life. But this is not the same event as mentioned in Revelation 20, called the GWT judgment. Death was just introduced in the 4th Seal. Even though Paul points out the last enemy is death, he is interpreted as just meaning there will be no more death. But John not only personifies death, but separates death from sheol. This current creation does not end at the Second Coming. Death is just getting warmed up at the Second Coming. It is this death that even perfect sinless people will face when they disobey, and there is no judgment then, but after they have spent the remainder of the 1,000 years in death.

There are no redeemed nor lost in the Millennium. No sinners, period. One: sin has been removed, and everlasting righteousness the only way of life, just as it was before Adam's disobedience. Two: the iron rod rule immediately crushes an enemy of the state, that being a disobedient act. There are only those alive on the earth, and those dead in Death. The judgment of the sheep already removed Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They have God's permanent incorruptible physical body just as Adam and Eve prior to death. There was no death period that first Day of the Lord, as the law given to Adam was not given until after the Day of the Lord.

Since Jesus will be sitting as King, and the earth is being subdued, there will be laws in place to break. Not set up intentionally to break. Not given to tempt humanity, and certainly, Satan will not be around and allowed to tempt or test people.

 

[Timtofly]

Unfortunately, many are not paying attention to the first verse of Rev. 1
You are neglecting all symbolism that is "signification" by the Lord.
Rev. 1[1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent AND signified* it by his angel unto his servant John:

* "signified"- Strongs G4591- to show by a sign, or signs.
Also known as: through symbolism and/or by coding.

Paul agrees to that methodology for interpreting scripture: 1 Cor. 2
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

The word in both Greek and English means to "make known" or "declare". One can look up definitions, not just take your point as the only definition given.

It is not strictly symbolism or coding. In fact to make known or declare using this word is the ultimate form of revealing. While using symbols it is the opposite of being secretive and coded. And Revelation was not sealed.

"And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand."

The time could have happened after Revelation was written and delivered. John did not let on one bit it would be several thousand years later. In fact the way some read it today, even if he did say 2,000 years, they would not accept that, as they don't accept the 1,000 years after the Second Coming.

You still need the Holy Spirit to guide you in the book. Pretty sure they were more submitted to the Holy Spirit in the first century, than us lazy, modern, convenience driven, church attendees. Not saying people today are not, nor cannot be led of the Holy Spirit.

It just seems like some here are more into theological sand castles than the truth of God's Word. Not just having labels, but the twist and turns to get their theology to fit Scripture.

 

[Earburner]

Being sealed is one thing. How one is sealed is a totally separate issue. It is not putting on a robe of white. Do you currently have on that robe? You are currently sealed by the Holy Spirit in you. But the day of redemption is when you physically leave Adam's dead corruptible flesh in the dust.

Those currently in Paradise since the Cross, are sealed by already experiencing the first resurrection and they have a permanent incorruptible physical body.

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power."

That is all part of being sealed under the Atonement Covenant. Then there is the controversial 2nd birth. One that some think they can unbirth themselves from, and walk away from God's family, if that birth does not suit them. Being sealed by the Holy Spirit is the second birth. I guess some people think they can break that seal, along with removing themselves from that birth.

Some claim the second birth is not a choice but naturally happens like natural physical birth. That would be the reversal of universalism, and wrong, as all were redeemed, but most will reject the second birth. When it comes to the 144k, they have no choice in the matter. The only one who got his own way was Judas.

No other disciple chose to follow, nor did they choose to reject Jesus. Did Paul have a choice on the road to Damascus? Could Paul have walked away at any time and deny Christ? Even Peter who did deny his birth into God's family was not allowed to leave. The point about Judas, was that an exception to the rule, or did God allow an imposter to think he was a disciple, but never actually was, as an example of many who would later enter into the church as wolves in sheep's clothing? Was Paul the actual 12th disciple, one born out of due time, as well as the most vehement against the church one could get? An example of no matter what one's condition is, they can still come to Christ?

All are covered by the Atonement. All are named in the Lamb's book of life. Technically all would be redeemed, but not naturally. Redemption is against one's sinful nature. God does present the 2nd birth as a choice. Jesus saying you must be born again, is the same as saying you must make that choice. If Atonement was natural, then one would not do anything. The second birth is a personal choice, not a universal condition. Physical birth is universal and no choice involved. God chose every one to be saved but only a few will be redeemed without making that choice, and we know at least 144,012 people had no choice.

That is the problem with most people's view of the Second Coming and life after the Second Coming. People tend to view all humans as Christians even Adam and Eve. Then some try to divide up the redeemed into groups, and claim they all will be Christians someday. The term Christian was given to those who followed Christ. However it is limited in scope. The church today hardly follows Christ, much less the teachings of Christ. Most are Christians in name only, and many not even enjoying the second birth. So calling those who will live in the Millennium Christians is not technically correct. Jesus will not be Messiah only, but Prince. So not only a Christ follower, but a King follower. Those first century redeemed never seemed to push the King part and for good reason. Before Jesus can be one's king, they have to accept Him as Messiah.

It was the Lamb that was portrayed as the Atonement more than the Lord being the Atonement, although both are true. The redeemed have lived since Seth was born.

There is a time on earth when all were sons of God, and no one was redeemed, because sin was not in existence. Adam and Eve did not need to be redeemed prior to eating the fruit. They did not need to eat from the tree of life to maintain life. They were not sinners. They were not redeemed, nor in a state of death prior to Adam's disobedience. They were not Christians. They did not follow God. They were sons of God and part of God's created human family as sons of God. All humanity were sons of God in God's image as representation of God on earth in human flesh. They were created for that very purpose. There was no sin, and no one disobeyed God. It was not boring, it was creation, whole and complete.

That is how the Day of the Lord should be viewed as Holy and complete, set aside for God, just as that first Day of the Lord was, we call the 7th day. The first 1,000 years was the Day of the Lord. The last 1,000 years will be the Day of the Lord. People will not be redeemed, there will be no sin. What will be different as death is still the last enemy removed, will be instant death if there is disobedience. Not a life of death. Death as being relocated into Death. Not sheol, as John declares them two distinct locations.

"And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him."

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

When the 4th Seal is opened, Death is introduced separate from what we call death today. Seperate even from sheol. I think the LOF will be introduced at the Second Coming, as well. Sheol will no longer take souls. Those in sheol have not yet been removed from the Lamb's book of life. However after the 7th Seal is opened, people will be sent to either death or the LOF. Those judged at the Second Coming do not have to stand as dead after the Millennium at the GWT. They can literally be cast alive into the LOF at that judgment, while being removed from the Lamb's book of life. But this is not the same event as mentioned in Revelation 20, called the GWT judgment. Death was just introduced in the 4th Seal. Even though Paul points out the last enemy is death, he is interpreted as just meaning there will be no more death. But John not only personifies death, but separates death from sheol. This current creation does not end at the Second Coming. Death is just getting warmed up at the Second Coming. It is this death that even perfect sinless people will face when they disobey, and there is no judgment then, but after they have spent the remainder of the 1,000 years in death.

There are no redeemed nor lost in the Millennium. No sinners, period. One: sin has been removed, and everlasting righteousness the only way of life, just as it was before Adam's disobedience. Two: the iron rod rule immediately crushes an enemy of the state, that being a disobedient act. There are only those alive on the earth, and those dead in Death. The judgment of the sheep already removed Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They have God's permanent incorruptible physical body just as Adam and Eve prior to death. There was no death period that first Day of the Lord, as the law given to Adam was not given until after the Day of the Lord.

Since Jesus will be sitting as King, and the earth is being subdued, there will be laws in place to break. Not set up intentionally to break. Not given to tempt humanity, and certainly, Satan will not be around and allowed to tempt or test people.

In your post #741, you were doing absolutely fine, and I agree.
However when you got to this point and onward:
"It was the Lamb that was portrayed as the Atonement more than the Lord being the Atonement, although both are true. The redeemed have lived since Seth was born."
It is that which I disagree with.
No one could be redeemed before the literal death and resurrection of Jesus, who only is the firstborn from the dead into immortality.

By the way, could you please give us your understanding of Dan. 9:24-27?
Thanks.

 

[Earburner]

The word in both Greek and English means to "make known" or "declare". One can look up definitions, not just take your point as the only definition given.

It is not strictly symbolism or coding. In fact to make known or declare using this word is the ultimate form of revealing. While using symbols it is the opposite of being secretive and coded. And Revelation was not sealed.

"And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand."

The time could have happened after Revelation was written and delivered. John did not let on one bit it would be several thousand years later. In fact the way some read it today, even if he did say 2,000 years, they would not accept that, as they don't accept the 1,000 years after the Second Coming.

You still need the Holy Spirit to guide you in the book. Pretty sure they were more submitted to the Holy Spirit in the first century, than us lazy, modern, convenience driven, church attendees. Not saying people today are not, nor cannot be led of the Holy Spirit.

It just seems like some here are more into theological sand castles than the truth of God's Word. Not just having labels, but the twist and turns to get their theology to fit Scripture.

The book of Revelation and all scripture is not sealed to the "sealed" born again Christian.

However to those who are the unsaved, it is sealed and kept from their understanding, for they are not sealed by the literal mind/Spirit of Christ, unto redemption. Rom. 8:8-9, 1 Cor. 2:16, Eph. 4:30, Rev. 3:20.

 

[Earburner]

Being sealed is one thing. How one is sealed is a totally separate issue. It is not putting on a robe of white. Do you currently have on that robe? You are currently sealed by the Holy Spirit in you. But the day of redemption is when you physically leave Adam's dead corruptible flesh in the dust.

"White robes" is symbolic of the Gift of God's Holy Spirit. As I have said, though you disagree, much of Revelation is written in symbolism, because that is what John saw and/or heard.
Of course, you can deny that, and find a definition for "signified" that will appease your human thinking, of which most do.
However, through those words, we are to "hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches", and not so much the literal human words that the Lord uses.

 

[Earburner]

Those currently in Paradise since the Cross, are sealed by already experiencing the first resurrection and they have a permanent incorruptible physical body.

I disagree. Our salvation is a two stage process. First we are born again of His Spirit.
Secondly, we are resurrected into immortality upon the day of His Glorious appearing. The Second stage has NOT happened yet.

Edit:
Paradise is those who were born again, after the Promise had come but died and are fallen asleep in Jesus.
Even those who were of faith looking for the Promise to come, but died under the altar of the OC, they also did receive the Gift of God's Holy Spirit but only after Christ's resurrection, and not before.
They now are shown to be also asleep in Jesus. Rev. 6:9-11. See also Malachi 3:16.
Now we all, are still waiting for His Glorious manifestation in His Immortality, to be made into His likeness. Rom. 6:5.

 

[Earburner]

They are the firstfruits of the Day of the Lord, not the New Testament.

The disciples and those on the day of Pentecost are the New Testament firstfruits.

All the OT redeemed, waiting in Abraham's bosom were the firstfruits of Paradise. After Lazarus, all were made alive at the Cross, and entered Paradise with Jesus on Sunday morning. Way more than 144,000 from Israel. There were converts from all nations waiting in Abraham's bosom.

Just the same as way more of Jacob were not in Abraham's bosom, but tormented in sheol, many from other nations were also redeemed, though only a small percentage. But certainly more than 144,000 over the span of 2500 years since the Flood, were waiting in Abraham's bosom.

The 144k have not been sealed yet. They will be sealed after the Second Coming in the 6th Seal, and before the 7th Seal is opened. Just like the original 12 disciples in the first century, they will go every where Jesus goes during the first 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders. They are the firstfruits of the final harvest of the sheep and goat judgment (Matthew 25), and the wheat and tares (Matthew 13). The sheep and goats are judged during the Trumpets. The wheat and tares gathered during the Thunders.


The 144,000 are the GT disciples like the first 12 were the Messianic disciples. Jesus sits as King during the GT.

Revelation 14 shows them waiting on mount Zion during the 42 months, Satan is sitting as God on the throne of Jesus. The 42 months of the Abomination of desolation, is the last 42 months before the Millennium starts. The only two redeemed on earth at that point are the 2 witnesses.

These 144k should be the camp of the saints surrounding Jerusalem during the Millennium. They will always be with Jesus throughout the Millennium as the firstfruits in that kingdom on earth as the premier representatives and rulers. But the sheep will be the remnant of Israel. The wheat will represent all other nations and for many generations fill and subdue the earth.

We cannot go back and forth on this, until we come to a firm footing to stand on. That is why I have asked you and "ewq 1938" to inform me of your understanding concerning Dan. 9:25-27. At the moment, neither one of you are willing to share it.

 

[Earburner]

Abraham's bosom was NOT paradise. It was just a Jewish term used for the book of Remembrance.
 Abraham's bosom was Malachi 3:16, God's "book of remembrance" for all who died under the OC. Therefore, those of Israel, that had faith in Him and the Promise that was to come, did receive the gift of God's Holy Spirit (white robes), through their forward looking faith in Jesus and His shed blood, which was for their sins as well.

Paradise is symbolic of Jesus, who IS HIMSELF the resurrection.
To be "asleep in Jesus" is to be in the KoG, and for that, one MUST BE born again of His Holy Spirit.

Paradise is symbolized by the "the book containing "seven seals" that no one could open. That "book", that no man could open, contained the "book of Remembrance" Malachi 3:16., which today is now Paradise.
Please notice the 5th Seal, and what it is about. It's about those of the OC., whose names were written in the Book of Remembrance. Rev. 6:9-11 (Malachi 3:16).

The book of Remembrance (now Paradise), is symbolized as "the book with seven seals", and was opened by only Jesus Himself, in the days of His death and resurrection. Rev. 5:1-5.
Ask the thief on the cross. It will be revealed to you there.

ALL whose names that were written in the book of Remembrance, who had died in faith, were then given the Promise that they had been waiting for, the Gift if God's Holy Spirit, symbolized as "white robes". Rev. 6:9-11.

Edit: though you might not be willing or able to contain it, Jesus 0PENED paradise, and He Himself is the Door by which we enter in. For He Himself is the New Heaven, and we ourselves, individually and collectively, ARE the New Earth of God's permanent dwelling place, waiting to be made immortal.
2 Cor. 4[7] But we have this treasure [of Himself] in earthen vessels [our mortal bodies], that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

 

[ewq1938]

Abraham's bosom was NOT paradise. It was just a Jewish term used for the book of Remembrance.

No, it is not. It was a term used exchangeably with "heaven".

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Bosom of Abraham

Found only in two verses of Luke 16

www.newadvent.org

In the Holy Bible, the expression "the Bosom of Abraham" is found only in two verses of St. Luke's Gospel (16:22-23). It occurs in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus the imagery of which is plainly drawn from the popular representations of the unseen world of the dead which were current in Our Lord's time. According to the Jewish conceptions of that day, the souls of the dead were gathered into a general tarrying-place the Sheol of the Old Testament literature, and the Hades of the New Testament writings (cf. Luke 16:22; in the Greek 16:23). A local discrimination, however, existed among them, according to their deeds during their mortal life. In the unseen world of the dead the souls of the righteous occupied an abode or compartment of their own which was distinctly separated by a wall or a chasm from the abode or compartment to which the souls of the wicked were consigned. The latter was a place of torments usually spoken of as Gehenna (cf. Matthew 5:29, 30; 18:9; Mark 9:42 sqq. in the Latin Vulgate) — the other, a place of bliss and security known under the names of "Paradise" (cf. Luke 23:43) and "the Bosom of Abraham" (Luke 16:22-23). And it is in harmony with these Jewish conceptions that Our Lord pictured the terrible fate of the selfish Rich Man, and on the contrary, the glorious reward of the patient Lazarus. In the next life Dives found himself in Gehenna, condemned to the most excruciating torments, whereas Lazarus was carried by the angels into "the Bosom of Abraham", where the righteous dead shared in the repose and felicity of Abraham "the father of the faithful". But while commentators generally agree upon the meaning of the figurative expression "the Bosom of Abraham", as designating the blissful abode of the righteous souls after death, they are at variance with regard to the manner in which the phrase itself originated. Up to the time of Maldonatus (A.D. 1583), its origin was traced back to the universal custom of parents to take up into their arms, or place upon their knees, their children when they are fatigued, or return home, and to make them rest by their side during the night (cf. 2 Samuel 12:2; 1 Kings 3:20; 17:19; Luke 11:7 sqq.), thus causing them to enjoy rest and security in the bosom of a loving parent. After the same manner was Abraham supposed to act towards his children after the fatigues and troubles of the present life, hence the metaphorical expression "to be in Abraham's Bosom" as meaning to be in repose and happiness with him. But according to Maldonatus (In Lucam, xvi, 22), whose theory has since been accepted by many scholars, the metaphor "to be in Abraham's Bosom" is derived from the custom of reclining on couches at table which prevailed among the Jews during and before the time of Christ. As at a feast each guest leaned on his left elbow so as to leave his right arm at liberty, and as two or more lay on the same couch, the head of one man was near the breast of the man who lay behind, and he was therefore said "to lie in the bosom" of the other. It was also considered by the Jews of old a mark of special honour and favour for one to be allowed to lie in the bosom of the master of the feast (cf. John 13:23). And it is by this illustration that they pictured the next world. They conceived of the reward of the righteous dead as a sharing in a banquet given by Abraham, "the father of the faithful" (cf. Matthew 8:11 sqq.), and of the highest form of that reward as lying in "Abraham's Bosom". Since the coming of Our Lord, "the Bosom of Abraham" gradually ceased to designate a place of imperfect happiness, and it has become synonymous with Heaven itself. In their writings the Fathers of the Church mean by that expression sometimes the abode of the righteous dead before they were admitted to the Beatific Vision after the death of the Saviour, sometimes Heaven, into which the just of the New Law are immediately introduced upon their demise. When in her liturgy the Church solemnly prays that the angels may carry the soul of one of her departed children to "Abraham's Bosom", she employs the expression to designate Heaven and its endless bliss in company with the faithful of both Testaments, and in particular with Abraham, the father of them all. This passage of the expression "the Bosom of Abraham" from an imperfect and limited sense to one higher and fuller is a most natural one, and is in full harmony with the general character of the New Testament dispensation as a complement and fulfilment of the Old Testament revelation.

Abraham's Bosom - Bible Definition and Scripture References

Discover the meaning of Abraham's Bosom in the Bible. Study the definition of Abraham's Bosom with multiple Bible Dictionaries and Encyclopedias and find scripture references in the Old and New Testaments.

www.biblestudytools.com

Abraham's Bosom

Unique phrase found in a parable of Jesus describing the place where Lazarus went after death ( Luke 16:19-31 ). It is a figurative phrase that appears to have been drawn from a popular belief that the righteous would rest by Abraham's side in the world to come, an opinion described in Jewish literature at the time of Christ. The word kolpos [kovlpo"] literally refers to the side or lap of a person. Figuratively, as in this case, it refers to a place of honor reserved for a special guest, similar to its usage in John 13:23. In the case of Lazarus, the reserved place is special because it is beside Abraham, the father of all the righteous. The phrase may be synonymous to the paradise promised to the thief on the cross ( Luke 23:43 ). Together these passages support the conviction that a believer enjoys immediate bliss at the moment of physical death.

 

[Earburner]

No, it is not. It was a term used exchangeably with "heaven".

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Bosom of Abraham

Found only in two verses of Luke 16

www.newadvent.org

In the Holy Bible, the expression "the Bosom of Abraham" is found only in two verses of St. Luke's Gospel (16:22-23). It occurs in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus the imagery of which is plainly drawn from the popular representations of the unseen world of the dead which were current in Our Lord's time. According to the Jewish conceptions of that day, the souls of the dead were gathered into a general tarrying-place the Sheol of the Old Testament literature, and the Hades of the New Testament writings (cf. Luke 16:22; in the Greek 16:23). A local discrimination, however, existed among them, according to their deeds during their mortal life. In the unseen world of the dead the souls of the righteous occupied an abode or compartment of their own which was distinctly separated by a wall or a chasm from the abode or compartment to which the souls of the wicked were consigned. The latter was a place of torments usually spoken of as Gehenna (cf. Matthew 5:29, 30; 18:9; Mark 9:42 sqq. in the Latin Vulgate) — the other, a place of bliss and security known under the names of "Paradise" (cf. Luke 23:43) and "the Bosom of Abraham" (Luke 16:22-23). And it is in harmony with these Jewish conceptions that Our Lord pictured the terrible fate of the selfish Rich Man, and on the contrary, the glorious reward of the patient Lazarus. In the next life Dives found himself in Gehenna, condemned to the most excruciating torments, whereas Lazarus was carried by the angels into "the Bosom of Abraham", where the righteous dead shared in the repose and felicity of Abraham "the father of the faithful". But while commentators generally agree upon the meaning of the figurative expression "the Bosom of Abraham", as designating the blissful abode of the righteous souls after death, they are at variance with regard to the manner in which the phrase itself originated. Up to the time of Maldonatus (A.D. 1583), its origin was traced back to the universal custom of parents to take up into their arms, or place upon their knees, their children when they are fatigued, or return home, and to make them rest by their side during the night (cf. 2 Samuel 12:2; 1 Kings 3:20; 17:19; Luke 11:7 sqq.), thus causing them to enjoy rest and security in the bosom of a loving parent. After the same manner was Abraham supposed to act towards his children after the fatigues and troubles of the present life, hence the metaphorical expression "to be in Abraham's Bosom" as meaning to be in repose and happiness with him. But according to Maldonatus (In Lucam, xvi, 22), whose theory has since been accepted by many scholars, the metaphor "to be in Abraham's Bosom" is derived from the custom of reclining on couches at table which prevailed among the Jews during and before the time of Christ. As at a feast each guest leaned on his left elbow so as to leave his right arm at liberty, and as two or more lay on the same couch, the head of one man was near the breast of the man who lay behind, and he was therefore said "to lie in the bosom" of the other. It was also considered by the Jews of old a mark of special honour and favour for one to be allowed to lie in the bosom of the master of the feast (cf. John 13:23). And it is by this illustration that they pictured the next world. They conceived of the reward of the righteous dead as a sharing in a banquet given by Abraham, "the father of the faithful" (cf. Matthew 8:11 sqq.), and of the highest form of that reward as lying in "Abraham's Bosom". Since the coming of Our Lord, "the Bosom of Abraham" gradually ceased to designate a place of imperfect happiness, and it has become synonymous with Heaven itself. In their writings the Fathers of the Church mean by that expression sometimes the abode of the righteous dead before they were admitted to the Beatific Vision after the death of the Saviour, sometimes Heaven, into which the just of the New Law are immediately introduced upon their demise. When in her liturgy the Church solemnly prays that the angels may carry the soul of one of her departed children to "Abraham's Bosom", she employs the expression to designate Heaven and its endless bliss in company with the faithful of both Testaments, and in particular with Abraham, the father of them all. This passage of the expression "the Bosom of Abraham" from an imperfect and limited sense to one higher and fuller is a most natural one, and is in full harmony with the general character of the New Testament dispensation as a complement and fulfilment of the Old Testament revelation.

Abraham's Bosom - Bible Definition and Scripture References

Discover the meaning of Abraham's Bosom in the Bible. Study the definition of Abraham's Bosom with multiple Bible Dictionaries and Encyclopedias and find scripture references in the Old and New Testaments.

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Abraham's Bosom

Unique phrase found in a parable of Jesus describing the place where Lazarus went after death ( Luke 16:19-31 ). It is a figurative phrase that appears to have been drawn from a popular belief that the righteous would rest by Abraham's side in the world to come, an opinion described in Jewish literature at the time of Christ. The word kolpos [kovlpo"] literally refers to the side or lap of a person. Figuratively, as in this case, it refers to a place of honor reserved for a special guest, similar to its usage in John 13:23. In the case of Lazarus, the reserved place is special because it is beside Abraham, the father of all the righteous. The phrase may be synonymous to the paradise promised to the thief on the cross ( Luke 23:43 ). Together these passages support the conviction that a believer enjoys immediate bliss at the moment of physical death.

"According to the Jewish conceptions of that day, the souls of the dead were gathered into a general tarrying-place the Sheol of the Old Testament literature, and the Hades of the New Testament writings (cf. Luke 16:22; in the Greek 16:23)."

Yes! Which is almost exactly what I said, but it is ONLY by their names being written in the Book of Remembrance, which is symbolic of the literal MEMORY of God of those who were under the OC. ,
After Jesus' resurrection, their names were THEN translated into the Book of Life, who is Jesus HIMSELF. The evidence for that is in Rev. 6:9-11 and the "white robes" were given to them. They ARE the symbolic 144,000 of Revelation, all being from the 12 tribes, who were under the OC.

Jesus said the same thing for us, who are under the NT. Our names are written in heaven (in Jesus). Luke 10:20. See also Heb. 12:23.
To be IN Jesus, is to be IN the Kingdom of Heaven, aka the KoG. In other words, Jesus Himself IS the The Kingdom of Heaven.

Quite literally, He Himself IS the New Heaven.

Edit: though you might not be willing or able to contain it, Jesus 0PENED paradise (aka Jesus opening the 5th seal in Rev. 6:9-11).
Today, Jesus Himself is the Door by which we enter in. For He Himself is the New Heaven, and we ourselves, individually and collectively, ARE the New Earth of God's permanent dwelling place, waiting to be made immortal.
2 Cor. 4[7] But we have this treasure [of Himself] in earthen vessels [our mortal bodies], that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

 

[ewq1938]

"According to the Jewish conceptions of that day, the souls of the dead were gathered into a general tarrying-place the Sheol of the Old Testament literature, and the Hades of the New Testament writings (cf. Luke 16:22; in the Greek 16:23)."

Yes! Which is almost exactly what I said, but it is ONLY by their names being written in the Book of Remembrance, which is symbolic of the literal MEMORY of God of those who were under the OC. ,
After Jesus' resurrection, their names were THEN translated into the Book of Life, who is Jesus HIMSELF. The evidence for that is in Rev. 6:9-11 and the "white robes" were given to them. They ARE the symbolic 144,000 of Revelation, all being from the 12 tribes, who were under the OC.

Jesus said the same thing for us, who are under the NT. Our names are written in heaven (in Jesus). Luke 10:20. See also Heb. 12:23.
To be IN Jesus, is to be IN the Kingdom of Heaven, aka the KoG. In other words, Jesus Himself IS the The Kingdom of Heaven.

Quite literally, He Himself IS the New Heaven.

Edit: though you might not be willing or able to contain it, Jesus 0PENED paradise, and He Himself is the Door by which we enter in. For He Himself is the New Heaven, and we ourselves, individually and collectively, ARE the New Earth of God's permanent dwelling place, waiting to be made immortal.
2 Cor. 4[7] But we have this treasure [of Himself] in earthen vessels [our mortal bodies], that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Just in case anyone is reading along and not realizing, this poster is teaching the saved are the New Earth of Rev 21, and that Jesus is the New Heaven. Neither is scriptural.

 

[Earburner]

Just in case anyone is reading along and not realizing, this poster is teaching the saved are the New Earth of Rev 21, and that Jesus is the New Heaven. Neither is scriptural.

1 Cor. 2[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

It is apparent to me that you do not yet understand all the segments of God's Holy Spirit speaking through Paul in 1 Cor. 2:
1-4, 5-7, 8-9, 10-11, 12-13, 14-16. Do take the time to examine and study each of those segments I have listed.

1 Cor. 2[16] For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

John 14
[2] In my Father's house [who is Jesus] are many mansions** [garnished** dwelling places for God Himself]: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Please see the word "garnished"**, and how it's used in Mat.12:44-45 .
** Note: please ref. "mansions" G3438 in the Strongs Con., and compare to the word "garnished" G2885. Both have the same meaning for understanding of how Christ who dwells within us, makes us to be "perfect" and acceptable to God the Father by His permanent "garnishing" Presence within us, as well as protecting us from the re-entry of evil angels.

[17] Even the Spirit of truth [Jesus Himself]; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth [perceives] him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he [Jesus Himself] dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. Rev. 3:20.
Luke 17
[21] Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Again:
John 14
[2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you [in my Father's house].
Jesus IS His Father's HOUSE, and WE ARE the many "garnished" mansions being placed in that house, that is IF WE ourselves ARE in Jesus, who is to us the kingdom of Heaven.
Heb. 1[3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb. 10
[19] Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
[20] By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

BTW, when will you provide your understanding about Dan. 9:25-27?

 

[Timtofly]

In your post #741, you were doing absolutely fine, and I agree.
However when you got to this point and onward:
"It was the Lamb that was portrayed as the Atonement more than the Lord being the Atonement, although both are true. The redeemed have lived since Seth was born."
It is that which I disagree with.
No one could be redeemed before the literal death and resurrection of Jesus, who only is the firstborn from the dead into immortality.

By the way, could you please give us your understanding of Dan. 9:24-27?
Thanks.

The 70 weeks stop when the 7th Trumpet stops sounding.

Jesus and His earthly ministry as Messiah and Prince is the 70th week. The Prince part is on hold until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

The days of the 7th Trumpet is Daniel 9:27, not years.

The AoD is the last 42 months in Revelation 13. That splits the week of the 7th Trumpet in half.

 

[Timtofly]

"White robes" is symbolic of the Gift of God's Holy Spirit. As I have said, though you disagree, much of Revelation is written in symbolism, because that is what John saw and/or heard.
Of course, you can deny that, and find a definition for "signified" that will appease your human thinking, of which most do.
However, through those words, we are to "hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches", and not so much the literal human words that the Lord uses.

It is symbolic of the glorified church. It only happens once.

It is what Paul calls the mortal putting on immortality. It is the putting on of the spirit. Not the Holy Spirit. It makes us complete, soul, body, and spirit.

 

[Earburner]

The 70 weeks stop when the 7th Trumpet stops sounding.

Jesus and His earthly ministry as Messiah and Prince is the 70th week. The Prince part is on hold until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

The days of the 7th Trumpet is Daniel 9:27, not years.

The AoD is the last 42 months in Revelation 13. That splits the week of the 7th Trumpet in half.

Ok, thank you for providing your understanding on Dan. 9:25-27. I do follow your outline very well.
From what I gather from you is that the overall work of Jesus' ministry, was first in mortal flesh, which ended at the cross, but after the cross, and His resurrection into immortality, His ministry by His Spirit is still on going, until He is manifested from Heaven in all His Glory, in flaming fire. Am I hearing you correctly?
BTW, I purposely left out verse 24, mainly because I want to see how others come to understand the 70th week, and where in time they are applying it.

 

[Earburner]

Just in case anyone is reading along and not realizing, this poster is teaching the saved are the New Earth of Rev 21, and that Jesus is the New Heaven. Neither is scriptural.

Jesus said: "hear what the Spirit says to the churches".
Therefore by "the mind of Christ" (if He is within you), we seek His thoughts about His own words.
Afterall, He is the Word made flesh, who dwelt among us, but now for every born again Christian, He Lives WITHIN US, thus fulfilling John 14
[17] Even the Spirit of truth [who is Jesus]; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he [Jesus Himself] dwelleth with you, and shall be IN YOU.
Rev. 3:20
Of which ties in with:
Luke 17
[21] Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

If Jesus IS WITHIN YOU, then know that Jesus called Himself to be the kingdom of God, and that the kingdom of God is HE HIMSELF.
But if not, then we are NOT IN the kingdom of God, and Jesus is NOT within us by His "Spirit of truth", who is Jesus.

So now, we can conclude with Rom. 8:8-9.
[8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

So, there it is: If Jesus is NOT within us, then we are NOT IN HIM, therefore ALSO, neither is the kingdom of God within us, nor are we IN IT.

Jesus Himself, to us, IS THE kingdom of God. The kingdom of God to us, IS Jesus.

To be IN Jesus, and He IN US, is to be IN the kingdom of God. WHY?
Because,.... Jesus IS the kingdom of God!!

 

[Earburner]

Jesus and His earthly ministry as Messiah and Prince is the 70th week. The Prince part is on hold until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

From my post #755, I repeat:
"Am I hearing you correctly?"

 

[Earburner]

What if the 70 th week was ALREADY fulfilled years ago, with the answer in plain sight, in Dan. 9:24-27?

Would you see it beyond the box of your present understanding. Or would you go into a tail spin of vehement denial?

Know this: without "the mind of Christ" dwelling within you (as well as all the on lookers), that which will be revealed scripturally, cannot be known except that God's Holy Spirit reveals it to you.

 

[Patrick1966]

Would you see it beyond the box of your present understanding. Or would you go into a tail spin of vehement denial?

Most of the folks here that argue doctrine will NEVER budge even slightly from their own understanding no matter what they read in the Bible.

 

[Truth7t7]

Most of the folks here that argue doctrine will NEVER budge even slightly from their own understanding no matter what they read in the Bible.

Your in the wrong place trying to push your false doctrine (Universalism) in that everyone is going to be saved, even Satan and the fallen angels