Christianity requires fear, guilt, and conformity

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Wrangler

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Naomanos

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FlySwatter

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You are walking right into the analogy to defeat you. People say a bun is in the often precisely because a fertilized egg is a baby.
Forgive me but "what people say" is irrelevant to the science and medical fact of all this. People say the moon is made of cheese, people say fairies live at the bottom of their garden. You surely aren't basing your already non-existent argument on public hearsay !

And let me also correct your falsehood there:

People say "a bun in the oven" to indicate someone is pregnant, nothing more. It certainly is not said to indicate a fertilised egg is a baby!,
 
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FlySwatter

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Great question! A sperm is a part of a living being. We know this because it combined with it's mating female equivalent, which does produce a living being.
Excellent. Progress.

So a sperm, which has human DNA is a living entity. Hard to deny really when it moves, can swim, can clearly sense in some manner which way it needs to swim to find an egg and so on. And we may note that it can do all this outside of it's host, i.e. after it has come out of you it functions as a living entity.

Is it then ok to terminate a sperm, a living entity?
 
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FlySwatter

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The baby is killed in an abortion. Everyone but a Leftist knows this.

Again you're exposing a severe degree of ignorance of abortion. A baby is only killed in an abortion if a pregnancy has progressed many weeks to the point that there is in fact a baby present. An abortion that occurs days after conception or a few weeks after is different because clearly there is no baby at this point.

You seem to struggle with this basic aspect of medical fact but I sense it's a deliberate obfuscation on your part
 
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FlySwatter

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Sure! Like all choices, we are free to choose but not free from the consequences of that choice. If we make the choice, we are choosing the consequences.
So you profess to support free choice?!!!

So if we want to have free casual sex for pleasure you support that free choice

But if a woman inadvertently gets pregnant despite not wanting to then you want to remove her free choice.

Hmmm it doesn't actually seem like you do support free choice at all. You seem to want to dictate if not punish someone for having sex.
 
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FlySwatter

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You are forgetting the breath of life that separates the living from the dead. We are not our constituent parts. Your argument is getting more and more desperate.

Ah ! So you're back to the religious tenets that "Life" is not physical but rather a mysterious "breath of life". Thus the bits and pieces of the body are not "life" in your eyes yes?

Are your eyes alive? or are they just "bits" that don't live?

How about your kidneys? your heart?

Are you suggesting those things are not alive?

If not, are you suggesting that they have this "breath of life" in them? Odd concept as they are not breathing organs.
 
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Romanov2488

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Being lost, you have things backwards. It's not acid that has full legal rights but a human being, who has a unique DNA code. Keep things straight and you won't get lost again. :)
There’s a reason why 11 year olds can’t drive and go to a casino. A human fetus is not the same as a human being.
 
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Wrangler

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Forgive me but "what people say" is irrelevant to the science and medical fact of all this.
LOL. At the moment of conception the life form in question is human. Period. Calling various stages of their early development other names does not change that. It is a human being at every step in it's development and never is it a different species.

Abortion is infanticide and there is no 2 ways about it.
 

Wrangler

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But if a woman inadvertently gets pregnant despite not wanting to then you want to remove her free choice.
Excuse me! What choice does a man have AFTER PREGNANCY who inadvertently gets a woman pregnant? Fact is, both already made their choice.

You want to pretend abortion negates their choice to kill their own progeny - for their convenience.
 

Wrangler

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Straight from John Adams

View attachment 31985
Do you know that he wrote that to an Islamic leader? He wrote that the US is not a Christian nation because the Islamic leader did not want to trade with a Christian nation. In other words, it was politically expedient, not representing the facts of the matter as I've already presented.

From Letter: Re: Letter: ‘U.S. not a Christian nation’
In a July 6 letter to the editor in the Argus Leader, David Hubbard said, “U.S. not a Christian nation,” citing John Adams as declaring, “The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” In an age of fake news, this quote is fake history. Hubbard quotes only 16 words from an 81-word-long sentence, which was part of a treaty Adams negotiated with the Muslim nation of Tripoli (now Libya) avowing that this was not a Christian nation that had an inherent hostility toward Muslims, which was the case with European Christian nations of the Crusades. But John Adams did declare that, “The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were ... the general principles of Christianity.” Hubbard closed by stating that we needed to keep religion away from government, “as the founding fathers intended.” Really? Then what do we make of George Washington’s final official declaration to the American people that “Of all the disposition and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness.” Washington said that anyone who tried to separate religion from government could not be considered an American patriot. Wow. This is quite different from what Hubbard portrays in his fake history.
 

Romanov2488

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Do you know that he wrote that to an Islamic leader? He wrote that the US is not a Christian nation because the Islamic leader did not want to trade with a Christian nation. In other words, it was politically expedient, not representing the facts of the matter as I've already presented.

From Letter: Re: Letter: ‘U.S. not a Christian nation’
In a July 6 letter to the editor in the Argus Leader, David Hubbard said, “U.S. not a Christian nation,” citing John Adams as declaring, “The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” In an age of fake news, this quote is fake history. Hubbard quotes only 16 words from an 81-word-long sentence, which was part of a treaty Adams negotiated with the Muslim nation of Tripoli (now Libya) avowing that this was not a Christian nation that had an inherent hostility toward Muslims, which was the case with European Christian nations of the Crusades. But John Adams did declare that, “The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were ... the general principles of Christianity.” Hubbard closed by stating that we needed to keep religion away from government, “as the founding fathers intended.” Really? Then what do we make of George Washington’s final official declaration to the American people that “Of all the disposition and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness.” Washington said that anyone who tried to separate religion from government could not be considered an American patriot. Wow. This is quite different from what Hubbard portrays in his fake history.
That’s your argument? Lol. When John Adams said, “Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other”, he is equating morality with religion. It is a partial quote that leaves out an important piece of what Adams said and an even larger piece of context about his religious views.

First of all, here's the full quote of John Adam's letter written on October 11, 1798, to the officers of the Massachusetts militia: “But should the people of America once become capable of that deep simulation towards one another, and towards foreign nations, which assumes the language of justice and moderation, while it is practising iniquity and extravagance, and displays in the most captivating manner the charming pictures of candour, frankness, and sincerity, while it is rioting in the rapine and insolence, this country will be the most miserable habitation in the world. Because we have no government armed with the power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

He's using religion as a synonym for moral thinking opposed to greed, revenge, and other motives that make the workings of democracy difficult. Some people today have been using the last part of the quote to quite inaccurately claim that Adams was a supporter of organized religion and a proponent of a closer relationship between organized religion and government.

That's simply not the case.

Context demonstrates that clearly. Take this excerpt from a letter Adams wrote to Thomas Jefferson on December 12, 1816: “I return the Analysis of Dupuis, with my thanks for the loan of it. It is but a faint miniature of the original. I have read that original in twelve volumes, besides a thirteenth of plates. I have been a lover and a reader of romances all my life, from Don Quixote and Gil Bias to the Scottish Chiefs, and a hundred others. For the last year or two I have devoted myself to this kind of study, and have read fifteen volumes of Grimm, seven volumes of Tucker's Neddy Search, twelve volumes of Dupuis, and Tracy's Analysis, and four volumes of Jesuitical History! Romances all! I have learned nothing of importance to me, for they have made no change in my moral or religious creed, which has, for fifty or sixty years, been contained in four short words, "Be just and good." In this result they all agree with me. I must acknowledge, however, that I have found in Dupuis more ideas that were new to me, than in all the others. My conclusion from all of them is universal toleration. Is there any work extant so well calculated to discredit corruptions and impostures in religion as Dupuis?”

Once again Adams equates morality with his personal religious beliefs, which boil down to being “just and good.” Adams dismissed works of formal religious philosophy and theology as “romances” and equates them to fairy tales. Adam's correspondent Jefferson, of course, was a celebrated Deist who was so disdainful of religion that he famously cut much of the text out of his personal New Testament. He and Adams shared very similar sentiment.

The Establishment Clause prohibits the government from encouraging, promoting or establishing religion in any way. That's why Christianity is not the official religion of the United States, and why our government may not give financial support to any religious organization, including school voucher programs that favor schools that promote religion.

The first human inhabitants of the Americas were Asians who crossed the Bering land bridge beginning 30,000 years ago. The first white people in North America were the Scandinavian Vikings in 1000 CE, and the first Christian to set foot in the new territory (the Bahamas) was probably Christopher Columbus in 1492.
 
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Romanov2488

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So, an 11 yo is not a human being now either? At least, it is considered murder if someone takes the life of an 11 yo.
That was a metaphor to show that not all life is the given the same rights. If a fetus is treated like a human, then an 11 year old can also be treated like an adult by that logic. 11 year olds can’t drive no more than a fetus can be considered a human being.

An 11 year old being killed is murder. A fetus being aborted is not.

God also loves abortions because he is responsible for miscarriages based on Christian logic.

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FlySwatter

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LOL. At the moment of conception the life form in question is human. Period. Calling various stages of their early development other names does not change that. It is a human being at every step in it's development and never is it a different species.

Abortion is infanticide and there is no 2 ways about it.

You have a habit of repeating falsehoods as if somehow doing so will make it truth. But it does not. This is an act of self-delusion.

Yes, the ORGANISM from egg to eventual baby is of the human species all the way through. Yes it does have human DNA.

So does an appendix, a kidney, every part of a body.

Your LIE is that the fertilised egg through to zygote to blastocyst to embryo is a HUMAN BEING, a BABY.

These are names given by science, by the medical industry and are done so because they are NOT a baby. Names were needed to describe the organisms as they progressed. Human organisms with human DNA. Not yet human beings, not yet babies.

Abortion of these early stages of development is not murder, is not infanticide. Such attitudes are appalling, medieval in nature, akin to the dark ages, witchfinder general and the like.

If all you can offer by way of debate is constant repetition of the same lies then I will disengage. Discussion is pointless with one who refuses to accept reality and scientific fact.
 
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Naomanos

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Peculiar sentiment from a Christian. Given the presented facts, you're in denial for reasons that are not clear.

Not to peculiar for a Christian that believes God gives people a choice to come to Him or not.

Not in denial at all. My facts disagree with your facts. This is not a Christian nation. Having Bibles in a State House means nothing. There are Bibles in hotels, does that mean the Hotel is a Christian hotel? Nope! Atheists have Bibles in their homes, does that make the home Christian?

Others have presented the Founding Father's own words as facts, so far if anyone has shown denial it is you in the presence of the very words that show you are wrong.