Is Reincarnation baloney?

[St. SteVen]

Compare the Biblical Picture with the false doctrine of Reincarnation.

Bible: Death is the enemy.
Reincarnation: Death is irrelevant.

Bible: Death renders life futile and meaningless.
Reincarnation: Death does not render life futile.

Bible: Jesus died to save souls.
Reincarnation: souls are indestructible and don't need saving.

Bible: The soul is finite, perishable.
Reincarnation: the soul is eternal.

Bible: The afterlife depends on God's grace
Reincarnation: Deeds are meritorious and the afterlife depends on Karma or some other scale of virtues.

Man craves a point system; man craves a religion.

Bible: There is no point system and God hates religion.
Reincarnation: prior karma determines one's status in life

Bible: Belief and trust in Jesus is necessary for liberation.
Reincarnation: Karma is necessary for liberation.

I think you have the completely wrong idea about reincarnation. cc: @QuantumBit
And the wrong idea about the Bible as well. Keep up the good work. - LOL

Okay, it's simply a matter of mathematics. There are more people alive today than have ever lived in the past.

I think that actually supports reincarnation.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I think you have the completely wrong idea about reincarnation. cc: @QuantumBit
And the wrong idea about the Bible as well. Keep up the good work. - LOL

I think that actually supports reincarnation.

Correct me if I am wrong. If reincarnation were true, there would be no need for the cross or salvation.

 

[Timtofly]

Christ died and returned to life?
Christ appeared again after death. Where did he appear?

Not in another womb as those pro-reincarnation would have us believe. 3 days later in the same body is how Jesus rose again.

 

[St. SteVen]

Procreation is a process between two halves of the same being, male and female.

A son of God was not created as two on day 6. Eve was taken from Adam years later, and literally over a thousand years after Adam was created on day 6.

Is Procreation a totally different process if both sexes are in the same physical body?

Many think we will still be separated males and females after we die. Not if we are given back the original created bodies before Adam and Eve were split into two seperate identities. The point of Paradise is not being alone and needing two halves as the process is already completed on earth, and Paradise is already full of Adam and Eve's offspring.

If you think about it, at that point (Genesis 6) Adam's male offspring never had a womb to produce offspring, so only the females could. It may not be "politically correct" to state that the sons of God were both sexes, but they had to be, because it never says they were ever separated like Adam and Eve.

Many just erroneously assume only Adam and Eve existed, and don't even pay attention to what God even gives us in Scripture. You can thank theology for doing all the thinking for most people. Then people think only angels are around to fill in the logical gaps.

There were two different bodies prior to Adam's disobedience. One contained both sexes, and then God formed Eve out of Adam which technically would have changed Adam as that part of him was no longer there. Adam was still a son of God, but now both halves were sons of God. That changed when Adam disobeyed and they both physically died. Now we have the dead corruptible bodies that are genetic copies of fallen Adam and Eve. But we are not getting back our old bodies.

That is clear that once we leave this physical body, we are not getting it back by what Jesus said. He never said we become angels. He said like (as) the angels, who do not procreate. Jesus told you all right there it was not angels in Genesis 6. That is physically impossible. Jesus was just not explicit in saying we will have a body that is of one sex, or will contain two sexes, or no sex at all period. But if like the angels, in Paradise, the default, without explanation, would be no sexes at all. That ability would no longer be part of the physical makeup of the body.

Very interesting. Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed response. Much appreciated.
There are claims made that I have never heard before. Have you outlined the evidence in another post?
Not sure where you get Adam as having both sexes, or 1,000 years before Eve was taken out of him. (for starters)

 

[St. SteVen]

Correct me if I am wrong. If reincarnation were true, there would be no need for the cross or salvation.

I'm not an expert on biblical reincarnation, but yes, there is a great need for the cross and salvation.

Being reincarnated is a bad thing, not a good thing. A relationship with God breaks that cycle.
There is no salvation in biblical reincarnation. It is corrective, even punitive in nature.

Again, my knowledge is limited. Still trying to get my head around it.
It tracks a bit with Universal Redemption. That helps me.

We already know that the spirit returns to God who made it.
And we must be born again to see the kingdom of God.

 

[Timtofly]

I wanted to come back to this since you asked but no one responded.

Can a spiritual being reproduce as humans can? ---- No.

Where did Jesus come from? Who is the father? Who is the mother? ---- He was born in Bethlehem. His father was Joseph, his mother was Mary- just as scripture inform us.

One is God (spiritual) and one is human. (physical) His father was God in the very same way that God is your father. Our father. This he taught. Scripture says that he (Jesus) was like us in every way. The physical and spiritual are like two sides of a coin, that while they are imprinted on one coin, you can only examine one side at a time. Your thinking is influenced by what you've come to believe in this regard-- that somehow God "fathered" Jesus in some unnatural way.

Let me show you something interesting...

Now the man was intimate with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain.

From the very beginning, we understand how babies are made. That 'intimacy' was by design. It's how we were made and how it works... every baby since. We even joke about how 'he knew her, in a biblical way.' Scripture firmly establishes that this is "how" the woman became pregnant. -How she conceived a child. No intimacy, no conception.... no coming together-- no child. And we know that spirits don't have sex with physical people.... two sides of the same coin. But opposite perspectives.

Here's the interesting part-- Listen carefully to what Eve says, after she gives birth---

Then she said, “I have created a man just as the LORD did!”


What do you suppose she meant? She wasn't there when Adam was created-- so what is her understanding based on? And why would she phrase it like that?

That is not what happened.

Jesus is the first begotten son of God.

Jesus is not the first begotten son of Joseph.

Next you will be saying, Jesus was Moses reincarnated.

Acts 3:22

"For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you."

Acts 7:37

"This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear."

Where does this foolishness stop?

The Holy Spirit was the means whereby God came into human form. Were is common sense? God created humans. God took Eve out of Adam to set up a whole new process of conception and birth, now you say 4,000 years later God forgot how it works, and was incapable of becoming human flesh?

Jesus had the image of God, and was God on earth. Jesus did not have Adam's dead corruptible flesh image passed down through a human father. See Genesis 5:1-3


"This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:"

Notice the distinction between Adam in God's image, and Seth now in the image of Adam? When Adam disobeyed, he was no longer in God's image. When Jesus was born, He was not in Joseph's image. He was the only begotten son of God in God's image. Adam was not born, but created out of the dust, even though he was the direct image of God.

Here is something to think about. Cain and Abel were already born when Adam and Eve disobeyed God. They were still in the Garden when Adam and Eve were kicked out. Adam had to wait 100 years before Seth was born, after being kicked out of Eden. He may have had daughters, but highly unlikely. Cain and Abel are not mentioned in the generations of humans in dead corruptible flesh.

Of course God allowed Cain to kill Abel. He did not prevent the act from happening, but did kick Cain out of the Garden as well. Now the Garden was empty, with no one of Adam's offspring to fill it up. Now Paradise is in the firmament, and at the Cross, was physically entered by all the OT and presented by Christ to God as the firstfruits of Paradise. They were made alive, but had to wait until the Cross to physically return to their original homestead.

That may sound as strange as reincarnation to many posters, but it is from Scripture more than reincarnation is. Reincarnation is a theory that leads to all sorts of pagan proclamations. Many circumventing God's own plan of redemption and man's free choice to eternally reject God just like Satan.

While Hebrews 9:27 is a concise explanation, there is more to the story. And death is not just physical, just as life is not just spiritual. Those in Christ have been judged on the Cross. That is why those OT redeemed now have eternal physical life. All in Christ have been judged and have passed from death into life. The appointment of death is conception. That is what the verse means, not physical death at the end of one's earthly existence. Being born physically is the one time appointment to death, then the judgment. But no judgment for those in Christ.

"For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

That will be every one who is not removed from the Lamb's book of life. The final judgment is after the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. That is when the rest of the dead are judged who are not already in the LOF or in Paradise.

 

[St. SteVen]

The Holy Spirit was the means whereby God came into human form. Were is common sense? God created humans. God took Eve out of Adam to set up a whole new process of conception and birth, now you say 4,000 years later God forgot how it works, and was incapable of becoming human flesh?

Doesn't this confirm on some level that spiritual beings can reproduce with humans?

 

[Timtofly]

Then she said, “I have created a man just as the LORD did!”

How do you get that from this:

"I have acquired a man from the Lord."

qā·nî·ṯî ’îš ’eṯ Yah·weh

(Have gotten) (a man) (from) (the Lord)

 

[Timtofly]

Here's the problem..... we have stories and we have stories about stories. Moses, with his perspective-- telling us stories. What would shape his perspective? He was born a Hebrew, but raised (and educated) in Pharaoh's house. He would have learned history and science, mathematics and writing, biology and theology rooted in the Egyptian understanding. His formative years presumably included some level of influence from his biological mother, who Pharaoh's daughter hired to be his nurse/nanny. His older sister Miriam and his older brother Aaron seemed to have maintained perhaps some level of connection and contact, so perhaps through those influences he was exposed to the Hebrew stories-- the history he later records for us in the form of those 'books of Moses' -- but let's never forget.... those are what would be better referred to with names like-- "The book of origins-- or Genesis, according to Moses" -the way we say the gospel according to Luke.

Moses sees visions. Heavenly things. God says specifically in spirit--- 'Make no copies of anything you see in spirit' --He commands against it. --Moses makes earthly copies of everything heavenly he has seen. He takes and makes physical representations of everything he is shown in spirit and he takes everything in the most literal way--- everything that is, except God's command to NOT do this.

Abram does the same thing... In spirit he sees this cutting away of flesh in the most graphic depiction, and rather than understanding it as an expression of a spiritual concept (as all things seen in spirit must be understood) -- he copies what he saw in spirit and removes his foreskin, because that's how the concept was expressed.

In this way we end up with animal sacrifice-- because that's how a spiritual concept was expressed-- lambs and rams and bulls and doves. But scripture informs us and over time we learn that those spiritual things are not physical. We learn to think a different way regarding these concepts, and like Daniel we develop an understanding of what these things really represent. We learn to interpret the concept, rather than fall into the error of so many who have gone before and attempted to recreate spiritual ideas in physical objectifying... what God calls idolatry.

That sounds contrived.

How about this?

Moses clearly gave us all that God commanded and gave to Moses exactly like God said.

Then the part about making engravings was given to the people against adding to the Word of God just like John at the end of Revelation did.

Not that God intentionally contradicted Himself.

These people were to be set apart from the world, not follow after Satan's copycat plagiarized concepts stolen from God's Word.

 

[Timtofly]

That saw cuts both ways. How did YOU determine what scripture is ACTUALLY stating?
Is the status quo always right? (nope)

The same way any one else does. Read, compare all Scripture, remove contradictions and human reasoning.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:

That saw cuts both ways. How did YOU determine what scripture is ACTUALLY stating?
Is the status quo always right? (nope)

The same way any one else does. Read, compare all Scripture, remove contradictions and human reasoning.

So that's where we went wrong. "... remove contradictions and human reasoning." Wow.
That's monumental. Thanks.

So, the status quo IS always right?

 

[Timtofly]

Being born again is a reincarnation of sorts.

Unless a seed dies... (John 12:24)

Jesus returned from the dead. What was that? If he actually died, then he lived again.
If he didn't die and live again, where does that leave you? (1 Corinthians 15:14)

You are saved by reincarnation.

cc: @QuantumBit

Has any one presented symbolic reincarnation or actual reincarnation?

One is not saved by reincarnation. How is a death on a Cross the same as reincarnation?

Reincarnation is not dying and living again and dying and living again. Reincarnation is a soul stealing the body away from another soul in hopes of getting it right. How is stealing a great start in getting something right?


reincarnation: the rebirth of a soul in a new body.

a person or animal in whom a particular soul is believed to have been reborn.

a new version of something from the past.

Jesus' soul left the body, because He entered sheol and ressurected all from Abraham's bosom. But Jesus did not start out as a new baby in a new body. Jesus entered the same body and exited the tomb prior to the stone being moved away. Obviously Jesus as God can move through His own creation and break the laws of physics.

Reincarnation is not moving from one body to the next body. It is a soul that keeps being reborn as someone or something different.

A seed placed into the ground is symbolic. The body is not a literal seed. This body of death returns to dust and will never be reanimated or changed. That was the whole point of Paul's symbolism. The seed that went into the ground never came back out. A totally different body came out, a new plant.

But when those in Christ leave this body, they immediately enter a new physical body from God that is permanent and incorruptible. 2 Corinthians 5:1

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

This body will return to dust. The next body is put on in the transition between earth and Paradise.

 

[Timtofly]

Reincarnation is false on the face of it, according to the Bible. The concept of reincarnation is based on Pythagoras' concept of metempsychosis, transmigration of the soul, which is based on the false philosophical concept of the eternality of the soul.

While the eternality of the soul was a major philosophical assumption among Greek thinkers, the Bible teaches that the soul is subject to death.

Consider, for instance, Psalm 33:18-20

18 Behold, the eye of the Lord is on those who fear Him,
On those who wait for His faithfulness,
19 To rescue their soul from death
And to keep them alive in famine.
20 Our soul waits for the Lord;
He is our help and our shield.

Psalm 56:12-13
12 Your vows are binding upon me, God;
I will render thanksgiving offerings to You.
13 For You have saved my soul from death,
Indeed my feet from stumbling,
So that I may walk before God
In the light of the living.

James 5:19-20
19 My brothers and sisters, if anyone among you strays from the truth and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that the one who has turned a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

Souls are not eternal; they do not survive death, which is why they need to be saved from death.

Your view against reincarnation is as wrong as the view of reincarnation. The Greeks had the writings of the Hebrew Bible, in fact one Greek had them translate the Hebrew Bible into Greek.

So they were trying to rationalize the soul, the same way people in this thread have been doing over the last week, and nothing has changed in the last 3,000 years knowledge wise, nor has human rationale changed.

The soul dying is the physical and spiritual death that Adam went through and we are living today. We know the soul itself does not die, because they are still in sheol that have been there since Noah's Flood.

The issue would be the verse that states this:

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

The verses you quote would be the termination of life on earth. Which is different than the death of being placed in sheol by God. Many don't think bodies are in sheol, but Jesus indicates a body can be destroyed in sheol. The Psalmist is asking God not to destroy his soul in sheol, but grant it eternal life.

So you cannot state the soul stops existing. Even if you claim this body returns to dust when Jesus also claims it can be sent to sheol as well; should also apply to the soul.

Jesus is just stating that if God chooses, He can place a body in sheol along with the soul. While humans can only kill the physical body and not the soul.

Claiming the annihilation of the soul is also human reasoning, not God's Word.

 

[Timtofly]

Glad you mentioned that. Here's what God did about that, for all of humankind.
How do you suppose this is carried out? That "the many" who were made sinners (all), will be made righteous.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

It was carried out on the Cross, which BTW was not a reincarnation event.

 

[Timtofly]

A better way of considering this concept is to understand that the "Life" that was in my father, joined with the 'Life" that was in my mother and from that union of mother and father- that same "Life" was birthed in me. Life was re-birthed.

And this is the problem that so many have as they struggle with the concept. They think in physical terms only, and neglect to consider that Life itself is not physical at all, but spiritual and the spirit enters into a physical container.

Life is not the problem. Being in a state of death is.

You took a wrong turn at the point of conception. You stated when the two became one, you became you, which is the point of conception. It is not pitting spiritual against physical. It is the birth process of water, the start of the first birth, the first death and the first resurrection, which is all physical. The soul is neither physical nor spiritual it is you. You are both physically dead and spiritually separated from your spirit. Your spirit is with God until it is not. That would be if it becomes a demon, and flees from God's presence.

Spirit is not something in you, that would be pneuma (breadth), at some future point. The image of God, the spirit, is not part of this birth into death. What God gives us at that same point, in time, is the Holy Spirit. Not the power of, but the gentle calling that goes on your whole life, unless one reaches a point of reprobation. At that point the Holy Spirit is removed, the mind, you, the soul, no longer can decide your eternal destination. The point of reprobation is the point a spirit becomes a demon. An exception would be John the Baptist who was empowered immediately from the womb by the Holy Spirit.

The process of the new birth or second birth is the sealing of the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, physical death. At physical death the soul that is redeemed and sealed is no longer in that state of death, but has entered life eternal, and the soul enters God's permanent incorruptible physical body.

Your current life is not spiritual but a life of death. The only spiritual part is submitting your will to the Holy Spirit and Paul stated you have to crucify the flesh daily. Obviously the flesh and sin nature believes in reincarnation and refuses to stay dead. It comes back every morning to keep you in a dead state.

One is spiritually separated from the spirit, even in Paradise. The spirit is the final restoration of the image of God. That happens to the entire church on earth and in Paradise at the Second Coming. That is why they meet half way in the air between heaven and earth. This presentation of Christ as King is so all of creation is witness to the victory over Adam's disobedience. Even though it was finished at the Cross, the final step is the Second Coming when the complete restoration is realized.

That is what happens in the 5th Seal. John symbolizes the event by the putting on of a robe of white. That is when the spirit joins the soul and body. The 6th Seal is the Second Coming.

If you want to follow God's plan and time schedule, search in God's Word. What is all this looking at man's rationalizations and then trying to force them into Scripture? All human philosophical outlook has come from humans rationalizing God's Word, since Moses came down from Mt. Sinai. The exception being Satan and Eve having a chat in the Garden about the spoken Word of God. It is hard to say when Job lived.

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

Paul points out there was no need to justify sin nor impute sin until the Law came. We see that God struggled with humanity and sent a Flood. We see God struggled with humanity and caused them to speak different languages. But there was no need to rationalize God because there was no Law from God until Moses. To say we have been in the dark since Moses is not viewing God correctly nor how Paul presented it. We are in the dark, because the state of death prefers the darkness over the light of truth. We are in the dark because we reject God's Word and want our own rationale to override God's Word.

 

[Timtofly]

I don't know what you are referring to here. I was talking about eternal life. That means life without end for those who remain. Not all remain. The tree of life is pruned, for the good of the tree. The prunings are destroyed and no more.

Your example is symbolic, not how life actually happens.

If you are not stating universalism, then I misunderstood your point.

I would say that those currently in sheol are still named in the Lamb's book of life, and that has been construed as universalism, as well as giving them all a last chance decision at the GWT judgment. I think even after thousands of years in sheol they are not going to change their mind, as well as all those who fell through the cracks. Many redeemed will have blood on their hands.

There is hope though because God is longsuffering, and at the GWT no one will have an excuse, and those with blood on their hands will have that taken away. All humanity will make that final decision final without any excuses or rationalizations.

However at the same time sheol stops receiving souls, Death is introduced as the holding location for lost souls. These will not have any excuses either, and know why they are removed from the Lamb's book of life. We are never told a name will be added back in at the GWT judgment.

Those who argue that eventually all will be saved have a less chance of being right than those standing as dead before the GWT. Some people cannot be redeemed period. Not because God did not provide it, but because there is the freedom to not choose God, which is more realistic than one's desire to force all into redemption against their will.

In fact some even in this thread claim they would themselves reject a God who allows people eternal death. I don't even want to know or experience that thought. It is ironic they would themselves choose eternal separation from God over the belief that God will be eternally separated from many of Adam's offspring in eternal punishment.

At some point many have crossed the line and think they can reject God, or that would never be a legitimate and possible claim, period.

Read Romans 1 and you will see how one gets to that point, and the very reason demon possession is possible. A spirit as part of the image of God is turned into a demonic entity at the point one is made reprobate by God. One may not even realize it, or they do. It may even be hard to prove it to others. But when God allows the mark of the beast in the future, at that point it will be a physical and real decision that all will know and experience.

Being made reprobate is not being literally marked. But the future mark will be an outward sign of the inward decision.

So your symbolism does not really make sense, as being pruned is not the end. That souls will be forever in the LOF is still like a 401k. God could have a future for them, but right now that future is only the LOF. Ironically many declare souls held over in fire from a prior creation, but reject souls being held over in the LOF from this creation.

 

[Timtofly]

You reply here to me, as if I said any of those things. I did not. But I'll respond to your misdirection.

1. It was not God that had sex with the daughters.
God didn't have sex with daughters. No incubus, succubus or City bus carrying demons 'had sex' with men. Spirit and flesh are two completely different things and that's not how they interact.

2. When Jesus took on human flesh he was the only begotten son of God. Not an angel.
Jesus was human. He was flesh. He received the spirit of God-- it filled him. Spirit of God in him. We call it anointing. Christ in him. The "word" of God comes by the spirit of God by messenger. The messenger becomes flesh by entering in. Messengers are angels.

3. No where in Scripture should son of God be translated nor construed as an angel.
The sons of God are indeed angels, --in spirit. They are not begotten (born/fallen) but they are sent as messengers. My understanding is not limited by yours. Start a thread on this if you like, I'd enjoy showing you your error.

4. Of God part, or of Elohim is not the issue. The son part is the point being discussed. Angels are not sons. Humanity is. Adam was a son of God, then he physically died. After that point he was the father of all dead humanity.
You don't know what you are talking about here. Sorry, but you don't. God sent His son to Adam, because He loved the world and desired the garden of His delight to overcome death and remain fruitful forever.

5. Thus, the offspring of the original sons of God created on the 6th day, eventually saw the offspring of dead flesh Adam. When flesh without sin and death had offspring from those with flesh of sin and death, the result was not perfection and death being removed. The perfect flesh became corrupt into Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The ongoing result may have made Adam's dead flesh "physically" better, but the corruptible flesh made the offspring more wicked in nature.
This isn't even coherent. It's based on several assumptions that aren't rooted in reality. It's nonsense as a result.

Do you know more than me?

Do you outright reject God's Word, or just change it to decieve other humans? Just asking as you declared I don't know what I am talking about.

The words "ben elohim" was the topic. Elohim did not see the daughters of men. Ben Elohim did. Your post seemed to be missing the whole point.

I am not claiming to know anything. However I can read God's Word, and point out how people's opinions contradict God's Word, even if it is accepted theology acknowledged by billions of humans.

Luke 3:38 should be the final answer:

"Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God."

Adam was the son of God. Adam was also one of many sons of God. Adam was not an angel by any interpretation of Scripture.

Seth was not the only son of Adam. Enos was not the only son of Seth. So one does not need to change the verse to point out Adam was a son of God. Adam was the son of God the same as Seth was the son of Adam. But this verse does not contradict the fact that there were other sons of Adam and other sons of God.

Now God named Adam as the name mankind. Did God doom Adam by naming him that? Not likely. Did God know something Adam did not know? Of course.

Are only Adam's offspring alive on earth since the Flood? Is there a reason to assume mankind after the Flood were not sons of God prior to the Flood? No, because Adam was a son of God prior to disobeying God. So now, we are sons of Adam while being former sons of God, and future sons of God. So, no, angels are not sons of God, because they are called stars and not sons of God.

If it were angels in Genesis 6 it would have used the word star or the word angel, not the words sons of God, who were every other 6th Day human living on earth. God called Adam that when Adam was a son of God. So technically that name would have fit all the other sons of God as well. Not after Adam's disobedience, since Adam plunged humanity into the bondage of sin and death, and passed on dead corruptible flesh to all mankind. God did not rename Adam after he disobeyed. We are stuck as being named mankind.

Jesus was the only begotten son of God. Same chapter:

"And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased."

You said Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit, no?

"And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him."

Seems literal or there would have been no witnesses to the event stating what actually happened. We have the Trinity right there. Jesus was obedient, being about 30 years of age. Adam was disobedient, being in the Garden about 30 years. One will need to divide some Scripture literally to get that number.

Is claiming the sons of God were all created on the 6th day along with Adam, incoherent and nonsense to you? You seem to have traded the Word of God for the wisdom of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Do you claim to know more than I do about what humans know?

 

[Timtofly]

I think that actually supports reincarnation.

How? There would not be enough souls in circulation to fill all the bodies.

Are you only partial reincarnation, only a few souls get the opportunity?

 

[Timtofly]

Very interesting. Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed response. Much appreciated.
There are claims made that I have never heard before. Have you outlined the evidence in another post?
Not sure where you get Adam as having both sexes, or 1,000 years before Eve was taken out of him. (for starters)

The first 4 chapters of Genesis have been taught in Christianity a certain way since before the Reformation, I would assume. Too many contradictions though. Doctrine and the NT were more important items of discussion since the first century.

You have to read the entire Bible many times to get the entire picture. And there is still not enough comprehension unless you actually comment on it all every day, and then to top if off, one writer claimed what they were taught by Jesus and what He did, would take up way more than what was written down. John 21:25

"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."

"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, along with everything in them. On the seventh day God was finished with his work which he had made, so he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. God blessed the seventh day and separated it as holy; because on that day God rested from all his work which he had created, so that it itself could produce."

That is from the Complete Jewish Bible.

How can there be history and generations in one day?

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night."

How can Adam be both sexes?

"And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

Ok, so the basic teaching is that Adam was only a male but in creating from Adam's bone God designed a totally separate sex. Adam knew the bone was his, so declared the woman his flesh and bone.

The issue I have, is that is not how God stated humans were created. Not that there is a conflict in Genesis 2, but the conflict is with the accepted interpretation.

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

There were them prior to the 7th Day.

The argument is that Genesis 2 is just a repeat of Genesis 1. The them is only Adam and Eve. But that contradicts God giving the them, the command to fill the earth, and the single Adam to live in an enclosed Garden with borders, 4 rivers.

I don't hold to Adam being a seperate creation. I don't even hold to the literal implication, God created another set of animals after the 7th day and after planting a Garden. The creation mentioned in Genesis 2 is still the same time and way it was already accomplished before the 7th day, in chapter 1.

It is reasonable to state God created in anticipation for the need Adam would have when placed alone in a new Garden, way before that need was a realization. God already planned to come as Messiah in the far distant future, even before Adam was created and disobeyed. There is not even a contradiction between chapters that animals were created before humans, in one, even though in chapter 2 the only reason given, was seemingly because God saw Adam was lonely, and then God decided to create all the animals. God already knew Adam was lonely on the 5th Day when He created them and it was not an after thought after Adam was placed in the Garden.

Chapter 2 just delves into the reasoning behind the creation that had already occurred in chapter 1. It is not a reaccounting, but shows more of God's reasoning not disclosed in the previous chapter.

In chapter 1 we see creation as a whole. In chapter two we see creation from a single created human's perspective as God saw it. It is God telling Moses what to write, and He was not giving the narrative to confuse us. Not sure why people attempt to be confusing and contradictory?

Even God seems to be arguing from emotion:

"And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;"

Not that what is given literally happened. It is God even doing the reasoning. Not that Adam was lonely, and obviously God did not not have a learning curve.

It is rather obvious if you take one human and place that human in an enclosed area by themselves, they would be alone, and eventually lonely and probably board even. So why not place 2 humans in this Garden? That would certainly solve the problem. Then why did God already declare prior to the 7th day "they" were many, and already there to fill up the earth during the 7th Day of rest from all creation?

People already assume Eve was there on the 6th day, when in reality the Garden was planted after the 7th day, and not prior to the 7th day. That should not be an assumption. Those on the 6th day were male and female and told to fill the earth. After the 7th day we see one assumed male all alone in a garden full of animals and vegetation, needing something to do because he was "lonely". Then after naming all the animals, which was supposed to take 6 minutes?, or 6 months?, or 6 years?, this man was still alone.

There is no need to name anything even during the 1,000 years. Nothing even died. They were not even "named" the "sons of God", until chapter 6. Here is the simple explanation from Scripture why nothing died for 1,000 years:

"And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so."

Every seed from every plant and every tree was consumed as food by every living thing on the whole earth. Nothing died and no seed ever germinated. It never left the body either. How do we know this?

"Here is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created. On the day when Adonai, God, made earth and heaven, there was as yet no wild bush on the earth, and no wild plant had as yet sprung up; for Adonai, God, had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no one to cultivate the ground. Rather, a mist went up from the earth which watered the entire surface of the ground." CJB

"These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground." KJV

The first set of verses point out no wild plants sprung up. No domesticated plants were ever used. Now the KJV made more sense that for many generations of human and animal life, a thousand years, no seed ever went into the ground, died and came up again, not wild, nor domestic. So the plants and trees were watered naturally and no one had a garden nor a farm nor did they worry about anything dying or even left to die. Even the insects were part of the no seed left behind campaign.

Literally nothing was planted, and then what are we told takes place after the 7th day?

"Adonai, God, planted a garden toward the east, in ‘Eden, and there he put the person whom he had formed. Out of the ground Adonai, God, caused to grow every tree pleasing in appearance and good for food, including the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."

If the tree was forbidden and enclosed it was not planted prior to the 7th day. The whole process of trees and plants prior to the 7th day was to be the only food. Now we have a tree that cannot be eaten from period. Do we have a repeat of history in the future? After the 7th day, Satan was allowed to enter and decieve Eve. Not prior to the 7th day. Now we see a second 1,000 years where Satan is once again not allowed on earth. There is no sin and death during that time. And once again after the 1,000 years, Satan is allowed to decieve those on the earth. Makes sense to me, even if that is just my opinion. Not made up, but Scripture.

 

[Timtofly]

Doesn't this confirm on some level that spiritual beings can reproduce with humans?

No. God is not a created spiritual being. There are no created "spiritual beings".

All of creation is both physical and spiritual. There is not a seperate spiritual creation from the physical creation. The only part of creation messed up are humans who instead of being sons of God in God's image, are in a dead state of corruptible flesh. All creation suffers under sin and death, but all animals are still animals and plants are still plants, etc.

If you want a cycle of life, here is one: God becomes flesh in the body of Jesus. Jesus tells them he is going away to prepare a place and they already know about it. (Genesis) Then instead of being their King, Jesus is crucified, ressurected, and literally leaves. Goes back to before creation as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. And creates humans in the form He would originally be born in, thousands of years later.

God did that because He is the creator, and does the impossible, or whatever He chooses to do.

Jesus already declared He was the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. Yet He was born about in the middle.

Paul said there were heavenly things and earthly things, not spiritual and physical things. The heavenly exists in the firmament. The earthly on earth.

I would put forth that part of Satan's deception is to make us think there is this huge difference between the spiritual and physical. That is the separation from God's Word, the OT, that Paul warned about. Satan would make it all about the physical including his own brand of creation, evolution, where God is not even necessary.

Today's philosophy is humanism and the total lack of dependence on God. Which is the opposite of faith and obedience in a relationship with God.

God is not just a spiritual being. God is the creator, not part of creation that humans invented as a reason there is a creator. That is how the deception started. It was logical to assume a creator. Wait, why assume? How are we now to the point where humans know there is no creator, God. You without thinking assumed spiritual beings, plural, can procreate with humans. The creator aspect of God does not even seem to be in the thought process of that statement. Is there not a logical step missed there?

Humans are spiritual beings. We do procreate. Still does not make reincarnation a reality. There are no other gods besides God, is what we are told. And besides, now that Jesus was born, God is one of us. But not created like Adam, but born into Adam's family via procreation that happened only one time, by the creator. So however God did it, it already happened, and nothing will change that point, no matter what people believe or state in words.