Is Reincarnation baloney?

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Mr E

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How do you get that from this:

"I have acquired a man from the Lord."

qā·nî·ṯî ’îš ’eṯ Yah·weh

(Have gotten) (a man) (from) (the Lord)

I'm slowly working my way through your posts one by one....

That's how you understand it? Eve has sex (lays) with Adam and she conceives a child. It's born and she says - "I have acquired a man from the Lord."

Do you think she bought one? What you read as "acquired" clearly means "created."
 

CadyandZoe

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Death is NOT the enemy. IMHO
To live is Christ, to die is.... ??? (gain)
Yes, death is the enemy, which is why death will be the final destination of all those whom Jesus does not save.

Consider Paul's epistle to the Corinthians where he defends the need for resurrection.

1Corinthians 15:50-56
Now I say this, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I am telling you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable puts on the imperishable, and this mortal puts on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written: “Death has been swallowed up in victory. Where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Death, is your sting?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law; but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The picture Paul paints above is not compatible with the doctrine of reincarnation.
 

Mr E

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Moses clearly gave us all that God commanded and gave to Moses exactly like God said.

Agreed. But He also told Moses-- don't make a copy of anything I'm showing you. Did you miss that?

God is spirit. And Moses sees/meets/speaks with God - in spirit. In the "cloud" is the way scripture refers to 'in spirit' and that is where God talks to him and shows and tells all the details of the temple. Spiritual things-- and He says specifically-- don't make a copy of any of these things shown to you in the heavens.... but Moses wakes from his dream/vision/experience 'in the cloud' with God and proceeds to make a copy of everything he had seen-- exacting details, right down to the copy he makes of God saying "Don't make a copy."

There's a reason he was never permitted entry into the promised land.
 

Mr E

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A seed placed into the ground is symbolic. The body is not a literal seed. This body of death returns to dust and will never be reanimated or changed. That was the whole point of Paul's symbolism. The seed that went into the ground never came back out. A totally different body came out, a new plant.

But when those in Christ leave this body, they immediately enter a new physical body from God that is permanent and incorruptible. 2 Corinthians 5:1

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

This body will return to dust. The next body is put on in the transition between earth and Paradise.

Why use the 'symbolism' of a seed? What is it symbolic of?

It's purposeful symbolism, otherwise just bury the bone, or throw a rock in the ground. No. Jesus teaches about seeds because they are illustrative of rebirth. The seed that went into the ground never came back out--- a totally different body came out-- a new plant. YES!!!!

That's exactly right. But it did come from that specific seed. It's not like a seed was put in the ground and totally unrelated a new plant came out somewhere else from something else. The life that was in the old plant (and seed) was the same life in the new plant and should it produce seed- life goes on.

Forget the body. You are looking outward. It's what's inside the seed, and the body- that counts.
 

Wrangler

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He says specifically-- don't make a copy of any of these things shown to you in the heavens.... but Moses wakes from his dream/vision/experience 'in the cloud' with God and proceeds to make a copy of everything he had seen-- exacting details, right down to the copy he makes of God saying "Don't make a copy."
Did Moses make a copy?

In the Bible Study I just completed, we learned the Book of Moses was passed on orallt for about 5 centuries before being put in written form.
There's a reason he was never permitted entry into the promised land.
And you think making a copy of the vision is why Moses was never permitted entry into the promised land?

I've been out of this thread for a while. So, I'm not sure how this even relates to reincarntion. Can you connect the dots?
 

Mr E

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Life is not the problem. Being in a state of death is.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that (physical) life is actually a state of (spiritual) death. Not exactly.

In a sense you are right in that physical people are like- 'the walking dead' the way any condemned man on Death Row might be considered. But physical life while it is fleeting and temporary and short- it should be considered the moment of decision. Where you decide who your Lord and Master is... You're gonna have to serve somebody. The flesh should be counted as nothing but a garment you wear and discard, take off or tear away, from the perspective of the spiritual man. A tent, or shroud, or covering.... a tabernacle or temple or house if you prefer.

You took a wrong turn at the point of conception. You stated when the two became one, you became you, which is the point of conception. It is not pitting spiritual against physical. It is the birth process of water, the start of the first birth, the first death and the first resurrection, which is all physical. The soul is neither physical nor spiritual it is you. You are both physically dead and spiritually separated from your spirit. Your spirit is with God until it is not. That would be if it becomes a demon, and flees from God's presence.

I think you have a misconception of conception as well as the difference between body, soul and spirit. While body and soul go together like a photo album records your holiday in Hawaii-- the soul is simply a record of your human experience. The spirit is separate (holy) and given to you by God. It occupies- you. For this reason a (spiritual) man shall leave his Father and Mother and be united with his wife... congratulations.... you are the wife. The bride. The physical body that the spiritual man enters.

Spirit is not something in you, that would be pneuma (breadth), at some future point. The image of God, the spirit, is not part of this birth into death. What God gives us at that same point, in time, is the Holy Spirit. Not the power of, but the gentle calling that goes on your whole life, unless one reaches a point of reprobation. At that point the Holy Spirit is removed, the mind, you, the soul, no longer can decide your eternal destination. The point of reprobation is the point a spirit becomes a demon. An exception would be John the Baptist who was empowered immediately from the womb by the Holy Spirit.

The body falls
The soul does stand
Which was it first
The Soul or man?
If what we see, our spirit sees
Does not it have autonomy?

Of its nature, much is spoken
We see not more than just a token
Is all we glimpse, or think, or feel
More than a shadow of all that's real?

The body breathes, the Spirit leads
A symptom of duality

The process of the new birth or second birth is the sealing of the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, physical death. At physical death the soul that is redeemed and sealed is no longer in that state of death, but has entered life eternal, and the soul enters God's permanent incorruptible physical body.

God has no physical incorruptible body at all. God is spirit. And He dwells in spirit in a spiritual house. It's not physical. The physical is but an image or reflection of the spiritual reality. Is your reflection physical? No-- it's tied to the physical you, but it is a mere image of what you really are.

Your current life is not spiritual but a life of death. The only spiritual part is submitting your will to the Holy Spirit and Paul stated you have to crucify the flesh daily. Obviously the flesh and sin nature believes in reincarnation and refuses to stay dead. It comes back every morning to keep you in a dead state.

This is illogical. Paul speaks in terms of our dual nature. You quote from 2 Cor 5-- where Paul makes this so clear. How do you miss it? The spirit you have is just the tiniest of things-- a mustard seed. A down payment, or small beginning of what you will become if you remain..... yielding harvests in multiples of return.... 10, 30, 60, 100 times. Paul goes on to state explicitly--

For we are the temple of the living God, just as God said, “I will live in them and will walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

-the love of God has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (while we were still sinners). And Adam is the model/figure/replica of the one that was to come. He's the tree. Jesus is the branch.


I would say that those currently in sheol are still named in the Lamb's book of life, and that has been construed as universalism, as well as giving them all a last chance decision at the GWT judgment. I think even after thousands of years in sheol they are not going to change their mind, as well as all those who fell through the cracks. Many redeemed will have blood on their hands.

I don't follow. Who is it that you think is in Sheol? You said that this world is the abode of the dead. --That those (living) here are the dead. Now are you saying that the physical dead are in another place (Sheol)--- ? But didn't you say that physical death was redemption?

I'm trying to understand your perspective here, but with some difficulty.
 

Mr E

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Do you know more than me?

I am not claiming to know anything.

In that case--- Yes. :tearsofjoy:

The idea shouldn't offend you. As the comedian quipped-- 'Take my wife...... please.' I know a lot more about my wife (for example) than you do. If you are a plumber, you know more about plumbing than I do, because I only know a little bit about plumbing. If you have an Associate degree in Fluid Dynamics from ITT Technical Institute, you know more about the movement of liquids through pipes, than me.


Luke 3:38 should be the final answer:

"Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God."

Adam was the son of God. Adam was also one of many sons of God. Adam was not an angel by any interpretation of Scripture.

Seth was not the only son of Adam. Enos was not the only son of Seth. So one does not need to change the verse to point out Adam was a son of God. Adam was the son of God the same as Seth was the son of Adam. But this verse does not contradict the fact that there were other sons of Adam and other sons of God.

I forgot the question-- did we disagree on something here in Luke 3?

And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph....

The parentheses mean that part was added. (that's what it always means).

And from Jesus, through Joseph, we have the record of his genealogy right back to Adam. Agreed.

Here's the point you may be missing. God doesn't have any physical sons. God is spirit. Spirit gives birth to spirit. His sons are spirit (like their Father) (I added that bit for you).
 

Mr E

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How can there be history and generations in one day?

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night."

It's not literal. It's not some sort of mathematical equation.

How can Adam be both sexes?

"And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

Ok, so the basic teaching is that Adam was only a male but in creating from Adam's bone God designed a totally separate sex. Adam knew the bone was his, so declared the woman his flesh and bone.

The issue I have, is that is not how God stated humans were created. Not that there is a conflict in Genesis 2, but the conflict is with the accepted interpretation.

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

There were them prior to the 7th Day.

Adam is God's son. Made in His image. He's a reflection of His father and his father is spirit. Not physical. So the spiritual Adam was from the seed of the spiritual Father. If the original spiritual Adam as you say, was 'both sexes' and he is a copy (facsimile) of the Father, the Father too is 'both sexes' or the Adam isn't a true copy. Yes?

Of course-- in spirit, there is neither male, nor female-- so it's not really 'both sexes' as you suppose, but God contains the attributes that we then "attribute" to male and female as characteristics or properties. God is One, complete as complete can be and His son, a copy of that united completeness. But then, with all things- a division exists between the holy and the profane, heaven and earth, darkness and light, the sea and dry land, male and female and so on. A duality of all things with a line of demarcation between the spiritual above, and the flesh below. And this is true of all physical things-- reflections, or images of those things above-- spiritual things.

The argument is that Genesis 2 is just a repeat of Genesis 1. The them is only Adam and Eve. But that contradicts God giving the them, the command to fill the earth, and the single Adam to live in an enclosed Garden with borders, 4 rivers.

I don't hold to Adam being a seperate creation. I don't even hold to the literal implication, God created another set of animals after the 7th day and after planting a Garden. The creation mentioned in Genesis 2 is still the same time and way it was already accomplished before the 7th day, in chapter 1.

Now you don't believe in literal interpretation? What about your thousand years equation? Do you just flip the literal switch whenever you need to?

Genesis 1 tells the story from the perspective of Paradise-- that is, what we call heaven. But everything above is reflected below-- on earth as it is in heaven. Genesis 2 provides the physical perspective. There's much more to it than this, but it's the same story from two different points of view and two different time periods-- the story from before what we call 'creation' and then the story of creation itself. You'd be far better off dispensing with your algebraic equation and recognize the Hebrew word for 'day' as simply an age, or space of time.

It is reasonable to state God created in anticipation for the need Adam would have when placed alone in a new Garden, way before that need was a realization. God already planned to come as Messiah in the far distant future, even before Adam was created and disobeyed. There is not even a contradiction between chapters that animals were created before humans, in one, even though in chapter 2 the only reason given, was seemingly because God saw Adam was lonely, and then God decided to create all the animals. God already knew Adam was lonely on the 5th Day when He created them and it was not an after thought after Adam was placed in the Garden.

Adam in Paradise is the image of God in Heaven. The son, the reflection of the Father.


It is rather obvious if you take one human and place that human in an enclosed area by themselves, they would be alone, and eventually lonely and probably board even. So why not place 2 humans in this Garden? That would certainly solve the problem. Then why did God already declare prior to the 7th day "they" were many, and already there to fill up the earth during the 7th Day of rest from all creation?

People already assume Eve was there on the 6th day, when in reality the Garden was planted after the 7th day, and not prior to the 7th day. That should not be an assumption. Those on the 6th day were male and female and told to fill the earth. After the 7th day we see one assumed male all alone in a garden full of animals and vegetation, needing something to do because he was "lonely". Then after naming all the animals, which was supposed to take 6 minutes?, or 6 months?, or 6 years?, this man was still alone.

You are still thinking of Adam as being a physical man in a physical garden. Look up. He's walking with God in Paradise-- in spirit. There's an extremely important principle you are missing because you are still not seeing the difference between the physical man below and the spiritual man above.

There is no need to name anything even during the 1,000 years. Nothing even died. They were not even "named" the "sons of God", until chapter 6. Here is the simple explanation from Scripture why nothing died for 1,000 years:

"And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so."

Every seed from every plant and every tree was consumed as food by every living thing on the whole earth. Nothing died and no seed ever germinated. It never left the body either. How do we know this?

Flip the switch---- Back to the literal.

Consider the elohim. Like Adam-- sons of God and as many as there are stars in the sky. And for every elohim above, ben elohim below.

"These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground." KJV

The first set of verses point out no wild plants sprung up. No domesticated plants were ever used. Now the KJV made more sense that for many generations of human and animal life, a thousand years, no seed ever went into the ground, died and came up again, not wild, nor domestic. So the plants and trees were watered naturally and no one had a garden nor a farm nor did they worry about anything dying or even left to die. Even the insects were part of the no seed left behind campaign.

Literally nothing was planted, and then what are we told takes place after the 7th day?

"Adonai, God, planted a garden toward the east, in ‘Eden, and there he put the person whom he had formed. Out of the ground Adonai, God, caused to grow every tree pleasing in appearance and good for food, including the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."

If the tree was forbidden and enclosed it was not planted prior to the 7th day. The whole process of trees and plants prior to the 7th day was to be the only food. Now we have a tree that cannot be eaten from period. Do we have a repeat of history in the future? After the 7th day, Satan was allowed to enter and decieve Eve. Not prior to the 7th day. Now we see a second 1,000 years where Satan is once again not allowed on earth. There is no sin and death during that time. And once again after the 1,000 years, Satan is allowed to decieve those on the earth. Makes sense to me, even if that is just my opinion. Not made up, but Scripture.

You have to understand that this water from above that God had not sent is spiritual--- it's the same Hebrew word for sperm. That's the spiritual seed, the spiritual word that becomes flesh. In this way we can all say-- Our Father, who art in heaven.
 

Mr E

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All of creation is both physical and spiritual

Yes. At the same time. One, an image of the other.

All of creation is both physical and spiritual. There is not a seperate spiritual creation from the physical creation.

Correct regarding the duality. But totally separate at separate ends of a spectrum-- a duality and also a polarity. Opposite sides of the same thing.
 

MatthewG

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Reincarnation doesn’t seem realistic in the long run. Even despite the claims of those who may suffer from illness. As though they lived in a past life. Psychosis, is probable, or autism, other mental disorders.
 

Mr E

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Jesus restores the body and spirit back to a soul.

Jesus maintains souls in punishment, because sheol is currently used for that purpose.

Jesus allowed even the redeemed to only have a soul without a body and spirit for thousands of years up until the Cross.

Human reasoning is stating that a soul stops existence. But death is even the state of a body and soul while physically alive.

The destruction is the removal of the body, not the cessation of the soul itself.

The soul-- is the water from below. It's connection is the physical flesh.
The spirit-- is the water from above. It's connection is the spiritual Father.

It's right there in the book of bereshit. And also, -For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have life everlasting.

The son of God comes from that water of the Father above. God is spirit. Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Flesh gives birth to flesh. On earth as it is in heaven.
 

St. SteVen

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Reincarnation doesn’t seem realistic in the long run.
Did you really write that? (seems so) Pretty funny. (probably unintentional) - LOL
Like déjà vu all over again.
Even despite the claims of those who may suffer from illness. As though they lived in a past life. Psychosis, is probable, or autism, other mental disorders.
Where do trees come from? (dead trees)
 

Timtofly

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I'm not sure where you are getting these ideas? Not from the Bible, surely.
Dead is dead. People have no existence in Sheol.
Point to one verse claiming a soul is non-existent, even in sheol.

You do not get your ideas from Scripture. Samuel was called up out of sheol. 1 Samuel 28.
 
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Timtofly

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Reincarnation isn't baloney, but what you've written here certainly is.

You conveniently leave out the account from Matthew 11, which directly contradicts what you insist above.

For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

To John, John was John. To Jesus, John was 'the Elijah who was to come.' Note that Jesus never said that Elijah was going to reincarnate. It's not the physical man that they should have been expecting, but the spirit that was in Elijah, would be found in another who was to come, and that person would be 'the Elijah' of that period. John answered honestly, and so did Jesus.

Luke gets it exactly right-



To one who overcame the world and was taken up, their return is not from the womb of a mother. Jesus made this clear in discussing the meaning of being 'born again' from above. A child is born the way all children are born, they are given a name by their parents. They have their own soul, but their spirit comes from God. That spirit may have once been called 'Elijah' as it was in a person who was given the name Elijah. Then, like that child born to Zacharias and Elizabeth-- that child will be filled with the holy spirit even in his mother's womb and that spirit is given a new name.... in this case-- John.

To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.



Wrong. Jesus said explicitly that John WAS 'the Elijah' they should have been expecting. You directly contradict his words in scripture here.

Your expectation, like theirs regarding the need for Elijah to physically arrive was wrong. They also missed entirely the arrival and presence of the Messiah himself. Regarding the messiah, they were expecting one like Moses, from the line of David.... they were not expecting Moses resurrected, but regarding Elijah-- they were fully expecting him to come again in the flesh, the way many people expect Jesus himself to return today in the flesh.
The only spirit in both Elijah and John was the Holy Spirit.

I don't need physical Elijah to come. That is why reincarnation is a false teaching from Satan. They expect to come back into physical form, but still dead in their own unrighteousness. What you teach robs the natural conception of each and every soul. It is appointed unto all souls once to live in death and then the judgment. Not this popping in and out of existence of a single soul through multiple death experiences.
 
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