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The scriptures had long been available to the Celtic church, originally in itala, not Latin, derived from the Syrian church, not Roman. Copies of that Bible were produced in their hundreds over the centuries by the Celtic mission schools of Iona, Lindisfarne, and Whitby. Those schools were the origin of missionaries who traveled back into Europe to evangelize those trapped in the state religion of the Papacy, and ignorant of the gospel and the freedoms the scriptures promised. The Celtic church was established as early as the 2nd century as a result of Gaelic people accepting Christ through the missionary efforts of Paul, they in turn sharing the gospel with their own people who had settled in northern Italy and southern France 300 years previous, and with whom they had regular contact and trade. The northern Italian church centered around Turin became known as the Waldensian church as they later resided in the valleys and mountains to escape Catholic crusades. The French branch of those same people became known as the Albigenses. Of course, because they refused to submit to Roman supremacy, they were branded as heretics and largely decimated by the state military arm of the Papacy.That would be very incorrect....you need to look that up.
Back in that day the Catholic Church did not make the Bible available to the public, even Catholics! Of course it was in Latin and they could not read it anyway.....which was probably on purpose so they could preach one thing and no one would know the difference.
The Catholic did not produce a English translation to the Bible until long after the Protestant started printing theirs.
LOL There were translations that used the Tyndale as reference....
The scriptures had long been available to the Celtic church, originally in itala, not Latin, derived from the Syrian church, not Roman. Copies of that Bible were produced in their hundreds over the centuries by the Celtic mission schools of Iona, Lindisfarne, and Whitby. Those schools were the origin of missionaries who traveled back into Europe to evangelize those trapped in the state religion of the Papacy, and ignorant of the gospel and the freedoms the scriptures promised. The Celtic church was established as early as the 2nd century as a result of Gaelic people accepting Christ through the missionary efforts of Paul, they in turn sharing the gospel with their own people who had settled in northern Italy and southern France 300 years previous, and with whom they had regular contact and trade. The northern Italian church centered around Turin became known as the Waldensian church as they later resided in the valleys and mountains to escape Catholic crusades. The French branch of those same people became known as the Albigenses. Of course, because they refused to submit to Roman supremacy, they were branded as heretics and largely decimated by the state military arm of the Papacy.
The church of the East had their own issues. Muslim, Mithraism, Buddhism, Zoroastrian. The Catholic notion that they were the only Christian community around and we're the source and supplier and benefactor of all spiritual truth is a crazy ignorant idea which blatantly denies 2000 of miracle working power of God through humanity, and the promise of Jesus that hell would not overcome against His church. While Rome was falling into apostasy, Christ kept truth alive elsewhere and used the perfected churches of the wilderness to spread the gospel as far as Japan and China, a long long time before any Roman Catholic set as much as a little toe on Asian soil..
Apostles are those who spent time with Jesus, and also seem him, and his resurrection.
There are special qualities to them in their case.
God is the authority and he governs his people by the spirit by having a relationship with their Father who adopts them into the spiritual kingdom.
How could 11 men, without planes and helicopters, on foot, reach "all the nations" ??? Either they disobeyed Jesus or they made it to the Aboriginals in New Zealand and the Arctic. So there must be some way to accomplish the seemingly impossible. That "some way" has to be of divine origin. There are 4 of them found in the Nicene Creed. One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. If you think the Nicene Creed is wrong, we have to re-invent the wheel and explain the Incarnation.Paul and others who spent time with jesus and after resurrection.
EPHESIANS 5:27 – That He might present to Himself the church In all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.
“And the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mount where Jesus appointed them, and having seen him, they bowed to him, but some did waver. And having come near, Jesus spake to them, saying, ‘Given to me was all authority in heaven and on earth; having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them — to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,) and lo, I am with you all the days — till the full end of the age.’”
Matthew 28:16-20 YLT98
Matthew 28:16-20 And the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mount where Jesus appointed them, and having seen him, they bowed to him, but some did waver. And having come near, Jesus spake to them, saying, ‘Given | Young's Literal Translation 18
And the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mount where Jesus appointed them, and having seen him, they bowed to him, but some did waver. And having come near, Jesus spake to them, saying, ‘Givenbible.com
Seems like a mission was given
Charming as usual. Very weak response. I've read the history of the Jesuits in Japan. You didn't think I had? Martyrs you say? They died because they demonstrated the righteousness of Christ? Nuh bro. They died because they were cruel murderers who practiced the same spirit of inquisition their compatriots were carrying out in Spain and Portugal. If the manner of Christianity was that of Jesus, maybe they wouldn't have been thrown out, and the country closed to Christianity from that time on.The only ones who fall for Brakelite's lies are those predisposed to hatred for the CC, most of them are probably elementary school drop-outs.
The Tyndale Bible was full of errors. Tyndale was a Catholic priest who was, at best, a very mediocre scholar, with a lot of unorthodox viewpoints and prejudices. Even King Henry VIII, who caused the English to leave the Catholic Church and start the Anglican denomination in order to divorce and remarry, condemned the Tyndale Bible. In 1543, Henry VIII decreed “all manner of books of the Old and New Testament in English, being of the crafty, false, and untrue translation of Tyndale . . . shall be clearly and utterly abolished, extinguished, and forbidden to be kept or used in this realm.”But still the Tyndale Bible was known for its accuracy....More so than the Catholic Bible.....the Clementine Vulgate which was written in Latin and Christians could not read it and was part the sources for the King James Version which is one of reasons it is full of errors.
And yet, God (in the person of Jesus Christ), delegated His heavenly authority to the Apostles. The Apostles, likewise, delegated this authority to their successors, the bishops, who have done likewise down through the ages for 2000 years now. Authority is not taken. It is given.Apostles are those who spent time with Jesus, and also seem him, and his resurrection.
There are special qualities to them in their case.
God is the authority and he governs his people by the spirit by having a relationship with their Father who adopts them into the spiritual kingdom.
You funny. I am educated in five countries on theology and history.....I am sure I have forgotten more than you know. During the Middle Ages the language that were used depended on where you were at.Small sidenote: A knowledge of history would be helpful to you, I believe. During the Middle Ages, the language of literature and business was Latin, not the vernacular (such as English, French, etc.). Similary, before that it was Greek. And even then, the vast, vast majority of humanity was illiterate until long after the Industrial Revolution. Most people were manual laborers with no need to read until then.
It's not a contest. Lol. It is a search for truth. You cannot deny that only a tiny percentage of the population was literate at all during these times. And, Latin was the common language of literature and commerce, in order to save people the trouble of learning several different languages. Before Latin, it was Greek. Today, believe it or not, it's English. If you are an international pilot, you have to know enough English to communicate with the tower in different countries.You funny. I am educated in five countries on theology and history.....I am sure I have forgotten more than you know. During the Middle Ages the language that were used depended on where you were at.
So get your note pad so I can take you to school. Pay attention, there will be test. Nothing changes in languages like a switch, and the switch will occur for spoken languages as opposed to written languages at different times. But far as literature and documentation Latin began to fall out of use in the 5th century. Historians have since stated that Latin really became a dead language around the 8th century +-. This is in line with the diminishing Roman Empire where few people could actually read, and the English, Italian, French and Spanish spoken language was rapidly evolving. The Holy Roman Empire was on the push for French.
Old English was evolving out of Anglo-Saxon Britain from around 450. Middle English dates from 1150 and then to Modern English which appears to be an on going process. Old English was very popular and was adopted by Britain after the 5th century. It continued to increase in use but still you have to remember written language versus spoken language, common language versus the language used by aristocrats, and languages used by trades. Italy was a different matter, Italians did not like English and they are still trying to outlaw it today.
But the bottom line, Latin fell out of popularity shortly after the 5th century. The Church kept there Bibles in Latin so they could preach what they wished! LOL That is what the Protestants like to say, but it is not that simple. Definitely the Catholics have their own interpretation of the scriptures but more that, because of the way the Bible was written there can be a lot of different interpretations as proven by the thousands of Protestant denominations. The Catholic use to say that the Protestants would never figure out the Bible....and they have not. But the Catholic did not get it right in word or spirit in the first place.
In the time of the reform the world was translating the scriptures in different areas and languages....and the church was playing a game of Whack A Mole! One translation would pop up and they would hit it over the head and soon as they got that one took care of another one would pop up. And then the Gutenberg Printing Press was invented around 1436 and it was game over! It was not like the Pope picked up a sword and jumped on a horse and chased all these people down....the Church used their power over secular authorities to make translations illegal, to make printing them illegal, and imprison and executing those that did.
For sure and certain the Catholic Church was violently opposed to anyone translating the scriptures or printing Bibles. They even prohibited Catholics from having Bibles. This is documented in history....In 1199, Pope Innocent III, writing in a letter to the bishop of Metz, banned the reading the Bible in private meetings (which he labeled as occultis conventiculis, or "hidden assemblies"). LOL The Catholic Church eventually translated the New Testament and then later the Old Testament....
But eventually they had to translate there Latin Bible to English and offer it up and it was not long after that the English Catholic Bible began to appear in the hands of the people, but again it was not like overnight delivery.
Now anytime you want to butt heads on knowledge, education, or intelligence....bring it on....you will lose!
First off, you are the one that started the discussion off in a negative tone.It's not a contest. Lol. It is a search for truth. You cannot deny that only a tiny percentage of the population was literate at all during these times. And, Latin was the common language of literature and commerce, in order to save people the trouble of learning several different languages. Before Latin, it was Greek. Today, believe it or not, it's English. If you are an international pilot, you have to know enough English to communicate with the tower in different countries.
The Catholic Church could speak against what they wised.....but they did not have the right or authority to move against those that were trying to get the Bible out to the public.The Catholic Church is the first one to have translated the Bible into vernacular language. But they had the responsibility to assure that translations were accurate, hence, not just anyone was allowed to do so.
I don't think I know were the New Testament came from, I know, and it did not come from the Catholic Church. By the time of the Ecumenical Councils the 27 books had already been but together.....all they did was agree with it.Just curious, but where do you think the New Testament came from? I claim it was written by the first members of the Church founded by Christ . But it wasn't declared Scripture until the late 4th century by the Councils of Hippo (393 Ad) and Carthage (397 AD). They went through over 300 documents, books, letters, etc., Before coming up with the 27 we now call the New Testament. It is on the God-given authority that God gave His Church and the guidance of the Holy Spirit that we have the Bible today. Not due to someone who appeared on the scene in the 16th century after the Protestant Reformation.
Ok….They weren’t invisible. That means they left some trace of their existence. Based on your theory I will accept your version of Christian history. With that said:They weren't invisible. If they were, the Catholic Church wouldn't have been able to send crusades to destroy them. They were organized mission focused organizations, with their own bishops/overseas (we won't go there) and a head they called Catholicos. The papal church was only just then becoming an organized body...3rd century. They were still persecuted in Rome by the empire, and the Assyrian church by the Persians state religion, Mithraism. The Assyrian church spread from India across Persia as far as the Caspian Sea. All within 200 years. The Roman church was not the only shop in town.
Lol….OK!!! That means you are not familiar with the NT passages that talk about the men that rule over your spiritual life and that we are to obey them…You have not quoted one either.
As none of the letters are written to you…
Sure teachers exist but they have no spiritual authority.
Only Christ, and God helping to understand by the spirit, searching the deep things of God out.
That is a person journey; with no authority of anyone to dominate you; having the only true source of Authority being that of God, our Father.
Sure earthly, supervisors, moderators, judges, executives, courts, all still exist but are not on comparsion to God himself, though you can see pictures and types through people are sentenced to go to jail for their crimes.
Lol….OK!!! That means you are not familiar with the NT passages that talk about the men that rule over your spiritual life and that we are to obey them…
thank you for your time
That is not contested. The Twelve had a special charism slightly different from their successors. Their words were/are just as inspired as the written word. Their words are preserved in apostolic succession, which you reject.Apostles are those who spent time with Jesus, and also seem him, and his resurrection.
There are special qualities to them in their case.
You have no bishops and probably no pastor. The only "people" you are talking about is yourself, a pope in a church of one.God is the authority and he governs his people by the spirit by having a relationship with their Father who adopts them into the spiritual kingdom.