What is the one true Church?

[Brakelite]

There is only one real church todah.


Its spiritual.

Not material; there was once an assembly who paved the way to the establishment of the Heavenly Jerusalem, by having faith and they were told to straighten up, just read revelation.

That material church was taken up.


There is always more fruit to come after the “first fruit” which was those early christians.

The true church throughout biblical history was called the remnant. They were always, always, in the minority.... Hidden away for the most part in the wilderness... Persecuted by the majority. Seldom persecuted by the state, but mostly by the apostate church who used the state as it's personal police. The true church was never at any time the majority established state/church union.

 

[Brakelite]

Anyone wondered who Antipas was that Jesus referred to as a faithful martyr during the time of the early church? In the absence of there being a literal person historically of that name, could be we need to understand what his name meant, and therefore apply it spiritually to the character of the true church as opposed to that which was sliding into apostasy under the leadership of Satan, whose throne was among them.

 

[Illuminator]

Which church?

There are plenty of churches that in some way, contribute to building a just society and living lives of holiness.
In every part of the world, in every city, you will find non-Catholic Christians with similar goals working with Catholics.
Catholic social teaching wasn't just pulled out of those funny looking hats. It's the result of centuries of reflection and application so its nothing new.

The Catholic Church does not claim to have the corner market on alleviating human misery. We are not the only-candy-store-on-the-block and we welcome all the help we can get. Volunteers are not asked what church they go to.
How about you answer your own question.

 

[MatthewG]

Thats great. Byt that doesnt make human beings sny less flawed.


just considering the the time and place of jesus including is saying about returning to get the bride would be true; in that was something to go as planned. Without fail.

At least one would think.

But alas people will believe what they will and i respect wnd love each of you.

 

[Brakelite]

The true church throughout biblical history was called the remnant. They were always, always, in the minority.... Hidden away for the most part in the wilderness... Persecuted by the majority. Seldom persecuted by the state, but mostly by the apostate church who used the state as it's personal police. The true church was never at any time the majority established state/church union.

Here's the true church...
KJV Ezekiel 9:4
4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

Here's the true church...
KJV Revelation 12:11
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Here's the true church...
KJV Revelation 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Here's the true church...
KJV Revelation 7:9-17
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
.
.
.

 

[Illuminator]

The Church's social teaching is a rich treasure of wisdom about building a just society and living lives of holiness amidst the challenges of modern society.

Modern Catholic social teaching has been articulated through a tradition of papal, conciliar, and episcopal documents. The depth and richness of this tradition can be understood best through a direct reading of these documents. In these brief reflections, we highlight several of the key themes that are at the heart of our Catholic social tradition.

Life and Dignity of the Human Person​

The Catholic Church proclaims that human life is sacred and that the dignity of the human person is the foundation of a moral vision for society. This belief is the foundation of all the principles of our social teaching. In our society, human life is under direct attack from abortion and euthanasia. The value of human life is being threatened by cloning, embryonic stem cell research, and the use of the death penalty. The intentional targeting of civilians in war or terrorist attacks is always wrong. Catholic teaching also calls on us to work to avoid war. Nations must protect the right to life by finding increasingly effective ways to prevent conflicts and resolve them by peaceful means. We believe that every person is precious, that people are more important than things, and that the measure of every institution is whether it threatens or enhances the life and dignity of the human person.

More on Life and Dignity of the Human Person

Call to Family, Community, and Participation​

The person is not only sacred but also social. How we organize our society -- in economics and politics, in law and policy -- directly affects human dignity and the capacity of individuals to grow in community. Marriage and the family are the central social institutions that must be supported and strengthened, not undermined. We believe people have a right and a duty to participate in society, seeking together the common good and well-being of all, especially the poor and vulnerable.

More on Call to Family, Community, and Participation

Rights and Responsibilities​

The Catholic tradition teaches that human dignity can be protected and a healthy community can be achieved only if human rights are protected and responsibilities are met. Therefore, every person has a fundamental right to life and a right to those things required for human decency. Corresponding to these rights are duties and responsibilities--to one another, to our families, and to the larger society.

More on Rights and Responsibilities

Option for the Poor and Vulnerable​

A basic moral test is how our most vulnerable members are faring. In a society marred by deepening divisions between rich and poor, our tradition recalls the story of the Last Judgment (Mt 25:31-46) and instructs us to put the needs of the poor and vulnerable first.
More on Option for the Poor and Vulnerable

The Dignity of Work and the Rights of Workers​

The economy must serve people, not the other way around. Work is more than a way to make a living; it is a form of continuing participation in Gods creation. If the dignity of work is to be protected, then the basic rights of workers must be respected--the right to productive work, to decent and fair wages, to the organization and joining of unions, to private property, and to economic initiative.
More on Dignity of Work and Rights of Workers

Solidarity​

We are one human family whatever our national, racial, ethnic, economic, and ideological differences. We are our brothers and sisters keepers, wherever they may be. Loving our neighbor has global dimensions in a shrinking world. At the core of the virtue of solidarity is the pursuit of justice and peace. Pope Paul VI taught that if you want peace, work for justice.1 The Gospel calls us to be peacemakers. Our love for all our sisters and brothers demands that we promote peace in a world surrounded by violence and conflict.
More on Solidarity

Care for God's Creation​

We show our respect for the Creator by our stewardship of creation. Care for the earth is not just an Earth Day slogan, it is a requirement of our faith. We are called to protect people and the planet, living our faith in relationship with all of Gods creation. This environmental challenge has fundamental moral and ethical dimensions that cannot be ignored.
More on Care for God's Creation

Seven Themes of Catholic Social Teaching

The Church's social teaching is a rich treasure of wisdom about building a just society and living lives of holiness amidst the challenges of modern society....

www.usccb.org

This is Brokelite's response:

The true church throughout biblical history was called the remnant. They were always, always, in the minority.... Hidden away for the most part in the wilderness... Persecuted by the majority. Seldom persecuted by the state, but mostly by the apostate church who used the state as it's personal police. The true church was never at any time the majority established state/church union.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see Brokelite's views are just plain lies. He wants to identify with this mysterious "remnant" but can't name anyone in it in the 2nd or 3rd century.
"Seldom persecuted by the state" The first 37+ popes were killed by the state.
" but mostly by the apostate church who used the state as it's personal police." Not a shred of primary source evidence of an emperor telling the Pope what to teach.
"established state/church union" another hateful assertion with no evidence. The notion of a "Catholic Roman Empire Church" is stupid and absurd. History must be re-written so it lines up with the SDA occult sourced "prophecies".

The Church's social teaching is a rich treasure of wisdom about building a just society and living lives of holiness amidst the challenges of modern society.

Brokelite's rant is totally out of touch with the real Church of today, pounding the same anti-Catholic drum since 1860.
The Church he despises doesn't exist, and never did.

 

[Marymog]

Ya it is called reality lady.
But I can see that reality is a game for you guys...
For the rest of us reality is something that is connected to truth.
Do you think there were astronauts in the biblical era?
How about taxi drivers?

The sad thing is that you do not care enough to look it up, you would rather live a lie.

Ever talk to people that have left the Catholic Church?

They have a lot of complaints and concerns but two things that seem to come up a lot are.

1. The Catholic Church does not preach the Gospel.

2. They were told what to believe. And it was not the truth.

Ummm….Your response makes no sense. Not sure how astronauts and taxi drivers have anything to do with bishops spoken of in the Bible; but i guess YOU have made that connection.

Have you ever talked to a Protestant that has left their denomination? Soooooo what’s your point?

According to YOU the Catholic Church does not preach the gospel or the Truth. Who made YOU arbiter of the Truth?

 

[Marymog]

While organizations can help @Illuminator.

They are not God. I dont base my faith off of what people suggest i need to believe. Its based on the overall scope, and view with aspect of history co-existing with-in the bibles on narrative that in my opinion is completely unattested, and aslo true.

So a material building hold no power on God.
God shows his power by sending the spirit into those who have faith and works on their heart and mind to do what is right, by the spirit.


Organizations “baptist, calvinistic, armninan, church of Christ, Catholic ; Jehovah witness, Muslim, Mormon.

None of these places have any authority in anyones life and you if you think they play apart in salvation, my suggestion is that your totally wrong, if someone is placing faith in the organization, or man, and not God.

Hey Matthew,

So is it fair to say that you place your faith in YOU and YOUR authority when it comes to how one obtains salvation? You can’t find a single passage in the NT that says that other men, men of The Church, rule over you? Unstable men twisting Scripture?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

The true church throughout biblical history was called the remnant. They were always, always, in the minority.... Hidden away for the most part in the wilderness... Persecuted by the majority. Seldom persecuted by the state, but mostly by the apostate church who used the state as it's personal police. The true church was never at any time the majority established state/church union.

This invisible church theory that you you teach; When and how did they decide what letters were to be in our NT Scripture?

Curious Mary

 

[MatthewG]

never said i had authority.

God is the only authority known beside earthly governing authority.

I just state what i believe no one has to accept that though.

@Marymog

 

[MatthewG]

There are good and bad teachers out there, so one would think to seek for truth and seek out God for guidance while reading the scripture and He will help. Sometimes other people can help in the process but people have to put forth their own effort.

 

[Grailhunter]

Ummm….Your response makes no sense. Not sure how astronauts and taxi drivers have anything to do with bishops spoken of in the Bible; but i guess YOU have made that connection.

LOL Because you guys put anything in the past that you want with no regard to reality.

According to YOU the Catholic Church does not preach the gospel or the Truth. Who made YOU arbiter of the Truth?

LOL Because I am smart.
I am saying what people say....and even right here on this forum.
I am not saying that Catholics are completely ignorant of the Gospel. But they do tell people what to believe....and we can go down the list if you want.
For a long time the Catholic Church did not want people to have Bibles.....They could have printed their own translation of the Bible and made them available to people but they did not. And they killed people that were trying to get the Bible out to people. The story of William Tyndale is a good example of the underground effort to get the scriptures out to the people....He was killed for it. But his colleagues finished the Tyndale Bible and got it out to the people.

And why were they willing to kill for this? Because they knew what they were preaching was not from the Bible and if the people had Bibles they would know that.

 

[ChristisGod]

There’s a big difference between with the spirit does, and what people simply believe because of the Bible. The spiritual qualities are noted with in the Bible of what the effects are of the spirit. It has nothing to do with like what people believe.

It doesn't change the truth I posted with ALL the SCRIPTURE that supports the connection between the Spirit, The Word, the mind and the heart and how they are all interconnected- interwoven together. You would have us believe God works apart form His revealed word. The enemy does just that with his cults and like he did with the first adam deceives man by causing doubt on what God has declared and promised and twisting His word into a lie. See below which you ignored.

What is the one true Church?

Who was invited to the Council of Nicaea? Constantine had invited all 1800 episcopus of the Christian churches (about 1000 in the east and 800 in the west), but only 250 to 320 episcopus actually participated...episcopus if they were talking Latin....basically overseer. You are not going to be...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[ChristisGod]

There are good and bad teachers out there, so one would think to seek for truth and seek out God for guidance while reading the scripture and He will help. Sometimes other people can help in the process but people have to put forth their own effort.

Agreed as Shawn McCraney is a bad teacher for sure putting forth his own fleshly effort void of the Spirit.

 

[Illuminator]

LOL Because you guys put anything in the past that you want with no regard to reality.

LOL Because I am smart.

I am saying what people say....and even right here on this forum.
I am not saying that Catholics are completely ignorant of the Gospel. But they do tell people what to believe....and we can go down the list if you want.

Most of the posts in this forum by Catholics are DEFENSIVE. We have the same right as anybody else to defend and explain against a tidal wave of misrepresentations and lies.

For a long time the Catholic Church did not want people to have Bibles.....They could have printed their own translation of the Bible and made them available to people but they did not.

But you offer no scholarly source for this LIE.
Luther's bible came out in 1520 and before his Bible appeared there were exactly 104 editions of the Bible in Latin; there were 9 before the birth of Luther in the German language, and there were 27 in German before the Lutheran Bible appeared. Before the Protestant Bible appeared there were already in Italy more than 40 editions and 25 of these were in the Italian language with the express permission of Rome. In France there were 18 editions before 1547. Spain began her editions in 1478. In all, 626 editions of the Bible with 198 in the language of the laity, had been edited before the first Protestant Bible was sent forth into the world. With all this evidence why should there be those intellectuals who declare that the Church despised the Bible? This testimony shows that the Church fought to preserve it, translate it, and multiply it. She saved it from utter destruction at the hands of infidels; she saved it from total extinction by guarding it as the greatest treasure of all ages.

thesplendorofthechurch.com

That's called a source, something Grailhunter never does.

And they killed people that were trying to get the Bible out to people.

More undocumented lies, no scholarly source given, just more fundie lies.

The story of William Tyndale is a good example of the underground effort to get the scriptures out to the people....He was killed for it. But his colleagues finished the Tyndale Bible and got it out to the people.

And why were they willing to kill for this? Because they knew what they were preaching was not from the Bible and if the people had Bibles they would know that.

But you cowardly avoid giving any source for these lies.

So what was the real reason William Tyndale was condemned? Was translating the Bible into English actually illegal? The answer is no. The law that was passed in 1408 was in reaction to another infamous translator, John Wycliff. Wycliff had produced a translation of the Bible that was corrupt and full of heresy. It was not an accurate rendering of sacred Scripture.

Both the Church and the secular authorities condemned it and did their best to prevent it from being used to teach false doctrine and morals. Because of the scandal it caused, the Synod of Oxford passed a law in 1408 that prevented any unauthorized translation of the Bible into English and also forbade the reading of such unauthorized translations.

It is a fact usually ignored by Protestant historians that many English versions of the Scriptures existed before Wycliff, and these were authorized and perfectly legal (see Where We Got the Bible by Henry Graham, chapter 11, “Vernacular Scriptures Before Wycliff”). Also legal would be any future authorized translations. And certainly reading these translations was not only legal but also encouraged. All this law did was to prevent any private individual from publishing his own translation of Scripture without the approval of the Church.

Which, as it turns out, is just what William Tyndale did. Tyndale was an English priest of no great fame who desperately desired to make his own English translation of the Bible. The Church denied him for several reasons.

First, it saw no real need for a new English translation of the Scriptures at this time. In fact, booksellers were having a hard time selling the print editions of the Bible that they already had. Sumptuary laws had to be enacted to force people into buying them.

Second, we must remember that this was a time of great strife and confusion for the Church in Europe. The Reformation had turned the continent into a very volatile place. So far, England had managed to remain relatively unscathed, and the Church wanted to keep it that way. It was thought that adding a new English translation at this time would only add confusion and distraction where focus was needed.

Lastly, if the Church had decided to provide a new English translation of Scripture, Tyndale would not have been the man chosen to do it. He was known as only a mediocre scholar and had gained a reputation as a priest of unorthodox opinions and a violent temper. He was infamous for insulting the clergy, from the pope down to the friars and monks, and had a genuine contempt for Church authority. In fact, he was first tried for heresy in 1522, three years before his translation of the New Testament was printed. His own bishop in London would not support him in this cause.

Finding no support for his translation from his bishop, he left England and came to Worms, where he fell under the influence of Martin Luther. There in 1525 he produced a translation of the New Testament that was swarming with textual corruption. He willfully mistranslated entire passages of Sacred Scripture in order to condemn orthodox Catholic doctrine and support the new Lutheran ideas. The Bishop of London claimed that he could count over 2,000 errors in the volume (and this was just the New Testament).

And we must remember that this was not merely a translation of Scripture. His text included a prologue and notes that were so full of contempt for the Catholic Church and the clergy that no one could mistake his obvious agenda and prejudice. Did the Catholic Church condemn this version of the Bible? Of course it did.

The secular authorities condemned it as well. Anglicans are among the many today who laud Tyndale as the “father of the English Bible.” But it was their own founder, King Henry VIII, who in 1531 declared that “the translation of the Scripture corrupted by William Tyndale should be utterly expelled, rejected, and put away out of the hands of the people.”

So troublesome did Tyndale’s Bible prove to be that in 1543—after his break with Rome—Henry again decreed that “all manner of books of the Old and New Testament in English, being of the crafty, false, and untrue translation of Tyndale . . . shall be clearly and utterly abolished, extinguished, and forbidden to be kept or used in this realm.”

Ultimately, it was the secular authorities that proved to be the end for Tyndale. He was arrested and tried (and sentenced to die) in the court of the Emperor in 1536. His translation of the Bible was heretical because it contained heretical ideas—not because the act of translation was heretical in and of itself. In fact, the Catholic Church would produce a translation of the Bible into English a few years later (The Douay-Reims version, whose New Testament was released in 1582 and whose Old Testament was released in 1609).

When discussing the history of Biblical translations, it is very common for people to toss around names like Tyndale and Wycliff. But the full story is seldom given. This present case of a gender-inclusive edition of the Bible is a wonderful opportunity for Fundamentalists to reflect and realize that the reason they don’t approve of this new translation is the same reason that the Catholic Church did not approve of Tyndale’s or Wycliff’s. These are corrupt translations, made with an agenda, and not accurate renderings of sacred Scripture.

And here at least Fundamentalists and Catholics are in ready agreement: Don’t mess with the Word of God.

Tyndale's Heresy

The new edition of the New International Version (NIV) Bible came out this year. Why is it newsworthy? Because this is the “Inclusive Language Edition,&#8...

www.catholic.com

 

[MatthewG]

…

Why God, are we Humans so judgemental.

 

[Augustin56]

…

Why God, are we Humans so judgemental.

We aren't to judge souls, but we are to judge actions. We are to be "fruit inspectors."

Read Ezekial 3:18-20 -
If I say to the wicked, You shall surely die—and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade the wicked from their evil conduct in order to save their lives—then they shall die for their sin, but I will hold you responsible for their blood.
If, however, you warn the wicked and they still do not turn from their wickedness and evil conduct, they shall die for their sin, but you shall save your life.
But if the just turn away from their right conduct and do evil when I place a stumbling block before them, then they shall die. Since you did not warn them about their sin, they shall still die, and the just deeds that they performed will not be remembered on their behalf. I will, however, hold you responsible for their blood.

We will be held accountable if we see someone being wicked, and we say nothing to warn them. We will be held to account! We are our brothers and sisters keepers. We should be concerned with the salvation of all souls, even those who disagree with us. It's okay to disagree. Sometimes, that's how we find truth. We were created to seek truth. And the highest truth is God.

 

[MatthewG]

We aren't to judge souls, but we are to judge actions. We are to be "fruit inspectors."

Read Ezekial 3:18-20 -
If I say to the wicked, You shall surely die—and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade the wicked from their evil conduct in order to save their lives—then they shall die for their sin, but I will hold you responsible for their blood.
If, however, you warn the wicked and they still do not turn from their wickedness and evil conduct, they shall die for their sin, but you shall save your life.
But if the just turn away from their right conduct and do evil when I place a stumbling block before them, then they shall die. Since you did not warn them about their sin, they shall still die, and the just deeds that they performed will not be remembered on their behalf. I will, however, hold you responsible for their blood.

We will be held accountable if we see someone being wicked, and we say nothing to warn them. We will be held to account! We are our brothers and sisters keepers. We should be concerned with the salvation of all souls, even those who disagree with us. It's okay to disagree. Sometimes, that's how we find truth. We were created to seek truth. And the highest truth is God.

Im not so sure their blood will be on my hands. As i can tell a person which way to go but they have to choose. So i dont find that as a tactic to consider. You can tell people which wat to go, like leading a horse to water but they have to willingly drink it.

 

[MatthewG]

“And He saith unto me, ‘Son of man, that which thou findest eat, eat this roll, and go, speak unto the house of Israel.’ And I open my mouth, and He causeth me to eat this roll. And He saith unto me, ‘Son of man, thy belly thou dost feed, and thy bowels thou dost fill with this roll that I am giving unto thee;’ and I eat it, and it is in my mouth as honey for sweetness. And He saith unto me, ‘Son of man, go, enter in unto the house of Israel, and thou hast spoken with My words unto them. For, not unto a people deep of lip and heavy of tongue [art] thou sent — unto the house of Israel; not unto many peoples, deep of lip and heavy of tongue, whose words thou dost not understand. If I had not sent thee unto them — they, they do hearken unto thee, but the house of Israel are not willing to hearken unto thee, for they are not willing to hearken unto Me, for all the house of Israel are brazen-faced and strong-hearted. ‘Lo, I have made thy face strong against their face, and thy forehead strong against their forehead. As an adamant harder than a rock I have made thy forehead; thou dost not fear them, nor art thou affrighted before them, for a rebellious house [are] they.’ And He saith unto me, ‘Son of man, all My words, that I speak unto thee, receive with thy heart, and with thine ears hear; and go, enter in unto the Removed, unto the sons of thy people, and thou hast spoken unto them, and hast said unto them: Thus said the Lord Jehovah: whether they hear, or whether they forbear.’ And lift me up doth a spirit, and I hear behind me a noise, a great rushing — ‘Blessed [is] the honour of Jehovah from His place!’ — even a noise of the wings of the living creatures touching one another, and a noise of the wheels over-against them, even a noise of a great rushing. And a spirit hath lifted me up, and doth take me away, and I go bitterly, in the heat of my spirit, and the hand of Jehovah on me [is] strong. And I come in unto the Removed, at Tel-Ahib, who are dwelling at the river Chebar, and where they are dwelling I also dwell seven days, causing astonishment in their midst. And it cometh to pass, at the end of seven days, that there is a word of Jehovah unto me, saying, ‘Son of man, a watchman I have given thee to the house of Israel, and thou hast heard from My mouth a word, and hast warned them from Me. In My saying to the wicked: Thou dost surely die; and thou hast not warned him, nor hast spoken to warn the wicked from his wicked way, so that he doth live; he — the wicked — in his iniquity dieth, and his blood from thy hand I require. And thou, because thou hast warned the wicked, and he hath not turned back from his wickedness, and from his wicked way, he in his iniquity dieth, and thou thy soul hast delivered.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭3‬:‭1‬-‭19‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

Ezekiel 3:15 And I come in unto the Removed, at Tel-Ahib, who are dwelling at the river Chebar, and where they are dwelling I also dwell seven days, causing astonishment in their midst. | Young's Literal Translation 1898 (YLT98) | Download The Bible

And I come in unto the Removed, at Tel-Ahib, who are dwelling at the river Chebar, and where they are dwelling I also dwell seven days, causing astonishment in their midst.

bible.com

Im sure this wasnt written to me. There is a principle there but their blood wasnt on my hands, like the one being spoken to here.

 

[Grailhunter]

Most of the posts in this forum by Catholics are DEFENSIVE. We have the same right as anybody else to defend and explain against a tidal wave of misrepresentations and lies.

Ya know I get that to some degree.....a Catholic on more or less a Protestant forum. But it does not explain the horrible manners. All these red letters and calling people liars! Do you think that I would ever call you or BOL liars.....misinformed yes....saying things that deceive people... yes
But you know they are not lies.....because......you believe them.

I want to be nice to you and BOL but you both do everything you can to prevent that. I want to talk about the good things that the Catholic Church is doing and the future of the Catholic Church, but you guys keep dragging up the horrors of the past.