Made of Show of Them Openly

[face2face]

I don't see any fruitfulness in discussing this with you. I've seen how you approach the Bible, and discussion, and I'm simply not interested.

Even here . . . you are putting words into my mouth . . . as if I find this too confrontational.

Much love!

I believe the things we are discussing are not easy to process, and as such hurt on some level. Truth isn't easy...its very confronting!

 

[Johann]

I've noticed he copies and paste's large volume's of text in his post's....usually growth comes from working truth out for yourself. 2 timothy 2:15

Just to be clear, I am very selective in what secondary resources I use brother, mainly Robertson, Vincent and Utley, and have studied the Scriptures intensively for over 30 years and still studying, note, not just reading. I have never been affiliated with any Church but have found Dr. Utley's ministry to be edifying to me, about a year ago, and have contact with his staff via e mail.
As to questions, I find yours to be vague, unclear in your "explanation" on the vicarious atonement of Christ Jesus, hence me questioning you with a question, the same way Jesus did.
But hey, I have not yet "arrived" and still open for correction, that's if, upon disagreeing with you, would you be able to receive correction?
Johann.

 

[Johann]

Here is the issue Johann - How can God condemn sin in the nature of Jesus Christ if its not represented in him?

Cut to the chase @face2face how and in what manner was sin condemned in the nature of Jesus? Use your own words. What do you mean by being "represented?"

In the likeness of sinful flesh (en homoiōmati sarkos hamartias). For “likeness” see note on Php_2:7, a real man, but more than man for God’s “own Son.”
likenessG3667 N-DNS homoiōmati

Two genitives “of flesh of sin” (marked by sin), that is the flesh of man is, but not the flesh of Jesus.

And for sin (kai peri hamartias). Condensed phrase, God sent his Son also concerning sin (our sin).

Condemned sin in the flesh (katekrine tēn hamartian en tēi sarki). First aorist active indicative of katakrinō.

He condemned the sin of men and the condemnation took place in the flesh of Jesus. If the article tēn had been repeated before en tēi sarki Paul would have affirmed sin in the flesh of Jesus, but he carefully avoided that (Robertson, Grammar, p. 784).

Now, using your own words please-

 

[Johann]

I believe the things we are discussing are not easy to process, and as such hurt on some level. Truth isn't easy...its very confronting!

There must be a reason why @marks is not willing to discuss doctrine with you?

 

[Johann]

Jesus was held under the law of sin and death in his own nature.

Can you see the ramifications of such a belief?

Explain, this is too superficial.

 

[face2face]

Cut to the chase @face2face how and in what manner was sin condemned in the nature of Jesus? Use your own words. What do you mean by being "represented?"

In the likeness of sinful flesh (en homoiōmati sarkos hamartias). For “likeness” see note on Php_2:7, a real man, but more than man for God’s “own Son.”
likenessG3667 N-DNS homoiōmati

Two genitives “of flesh of sin” (marked by sin), that is the flesh of man is, but not the flesh of Jesus.

And for sin (kai peri hamartias). Condensed phrase, God sent his Son also concerning sin (our sin).

Condemned sin in the flesh (katekrine tēn hamartian en tēi sarki). First aorist active indicative of katakrinō.

He condemned the sin of men and the condemnation took place in the flesh of Jesus. If the article tēn had been repeated before en tēi sarki Paul would have affirmed sin in the flesh of Jesus, but he carefully avoided that (Robertson, Grammar, p. 784).

Now, using your own words please-

Jesus had your nature!
Jesus was condemned to die, whether by crucifixion, or old age!

Do you believe this to be true?

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Could Jesus overcome deaths power in his own nature?

Answer is an emphatic no!

How did God remove that power/condemnation in his son?

He put an obedient son to death which is why the Apostle Paul can say this!

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you get it Johann?

Did Jesus experience the sting of Death?

It's there if you only look!

F2F

 

[face2face]

There must be a reason why @marks is not willing to discuss doctrine with you?

He is confronted with where that doctrine will lead him - its more than confronting for some!

 

[Johann]

Jesus had your nature!
Jesus was condemned to die, whether by crucifixion, or old age!

Do you believe this to be true?

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Could Jesus overcome deaths power in his own nature?

Answer is an emphatic no!

How did God remove that power/condemnation in his son?

He put an obedient son to death which is why the Apostle Paul can say this!

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you get it Johann?

Did Jesus experience the sting of Death?

It's there if you only look!

F2F

How do you view Jesus, a Man-or a created Being? God in the flesh, or no?

 

[Johann]

He is confronted with where that doctrine will lead him - its more than confronting for some!

And where will it lead him?

 

[face2face]

Explain, this is too superficial.

"Every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" James 1:14-15

This is the Law of Sin and Death.

We die for two reasons

1. Inherited mortality (physical)
2. Transgression of Gods law (mental)

Jesus experienced 1. Born of a woman born under the law!

Morally he never sinned.

He "tasted" death for you and I. Heb 2:9

Why Johann?

 

[Johann]

Did Jesus experience the sting of Death?

In what manner?

 

[face2face]

How do you view Jesus, a Man-or a created Being? God in the flesh, or no?

To understand the true nature of Christ and to know what God did through him is confronting because the atonement is God reconciling His Children back to Himself through the life, death and resurrection of His Son.

Why did God choose to crucify His Son through weakness?

For he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but in dealing with you we will live with him by the power of God. 2 Corinthians 13:4

What is our shared weakness Johann?

If you say, our nature and the law of sin and death which has dominion over it...then you would be correct....but that knowledge will draw you to what is for many, an untenable conclusion about the Lord.

F2F

 

[face2face]

In what manner?

You see, you have a problem here Johann - if you say "no" that Christ experienced the sting of death... then God has no victory - if you say yes, then he experienced this sting, the result of which, is the Law of sin and death!

The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 1 Corith 15:56

If the wages of sin is death, which is another way of saying, if we sin we die and stay dead! Then Christ, tasting death, which is the power of sin once!, for all, results in God being able to destroy sin's power in the body of his Son, because he was sinless.

Everything God achieved was in that body on that tree. The Victory over that nature happened when Jesus said "it is finished".

Here is Paul expressing the same truth

Now since the children share in blood and flesh, he likewise shared in them, that through death he might destroy the one (sin personified) who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15and free those who through fear of death had been subject to slavery all their life.

Red = power of sin; law of sin and death etc.
Blue = the death of sins power; in the offering of a sinless sacrifice by one who upheld Gods Law perfectly

So why is there NOW no condemnation for those in Christ? Romans 8:1

Because God removed it from His Son when he raised him from the dead.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Johann

Maybe you can see why this offers "me" more power, than most?

Romans 1:3 concerning his Son who was a descendant of David with reference to the flesh, 4 who was appointed the Son-of-God-in-power according to the Holy Spirit (HOW?) by the resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Because I know what God did to achieve this unimaginable act.

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Whatever you do Johann, never cease to work our precisely how you were given Victory "through" our Lord Jesus Christ.

F2F

 

[Johann]

Now since the children share in blood and flesh, he likewise shared in them, that through death he might destroy the one (sin personified) who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15and free those who through fear of death had been subject to slavery all their life.

In other words-Jesus "became sin personified" on the cross, correct?

 

[Ritajanice]

Jesus had your nature!
Jesus was condemned to die, whether by crucifixion, or old age!

If you are talking ,Jesus had our sin nature, then I would call you a “ Liar”....Jesus was the Son of God,

There is no sin in God and there is no sin in Jesus.....Jesus took our sin on that cross....

That as far as this discussion goes with you, thank God I have his word, to lead me into his truth...I have never read so much rubbish in all my life,


10 Bible Verses about Jesus Christ, Sinlessness

‹›
Most Relevant Verses

1 Peter 2:22
Verse Concepts
who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth;


2 Corinthians 5:21
Verse Concepts
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Hebrews 4:15
Verse Concepts
For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

Luke 1:35
Verse Concepts
The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

1 John 3:5
Verse Concepts
You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.

Source: 10 Bible verses about Jesus Christ, Sinlessness
.

 

[Johann]

If you are talking ,Jesus had our sin nature, then I would call you a “ Liar”....Jesus was the Son of God,

There is no sin in God and there is no sin in Jesus.....Jesus took our sin on that cross.....

You have your head screwed on right here. Subtle nuances from the questioners.

 

[Ritajanice]

You have your head screwed on right here. Subtle nuances from the questioners.

If I were you,Brother, I would do as Marks and myself are doing...don’t engage....for someone to talk about Jesus like that makes my blood boil....

 

[Johann]

If I were you,Brother, I would do as Marks and myself are doing...don’t engage....for someone to talk about Jesus like that makes my blood boil...

Sound advice.

 

[Keturah]

You see, you have a problem here Johann - if you say "no" that Christ experienced the sting of death... then God has no victory - if you say yes, then he experienced this sting the result of which is the Law of sin and death!

The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 1 Corith 15:56

If the wages of sin is death, which is another way of saying, if we sin we die and stay dead! Then Christ, tasting death, which is the power of sin once!, for all, results in God being able to destroy sin's power in the body of his Son, because he was sinless.

Everything God achieved was in that body on that tree. The Victory over that nature happened when Jesus said "it is finished".

Here is Paul expressing the same truth

Now since the children share in blood and flesh, he likewise shared in them, that through death he might destroy the one (sin personified) who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15and free those who through fear of death had been subject to slavery all their life.

Red = power of sin; law of sin and death etc.
Blue = the death of sins power; in the offering of a sinless sacrifice by one who upheld Gods Law perfectly

So why is there NOW no condemnation for those in Christ? Romans 8:1

Because God removed it from His Son when he raised him from the dead.

F2F

Well said & I do see what you are expressing.........

In the garden, Jesus was Not asking God to not make him face DEATH but rather to not have every part of the " sin nature" placed upon him to carry to the cross for the ONLY SACRIFICE that would be a propitiation for OUR SIN that would justify & make us righteous before God !

2 CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 5

17 Therefore if any man be IN CHRIST, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become  new.........( Born again )

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Again by his submission to the Father's will through what RIGHTLY should have been our recompense, he suffered in obedience & died for our salvation, rose again in victory for us over sin & it's wages which is .....eternal death...........instead giving us eternal life.

PTL.