Made of Show of Them Openly

[Johann]

You still copying and pasting Johann?
You will never grow spiritually if you dont put these away and look at the text for yourself.
F2F

You don't know me, find fault with my posts, and then discuss, I'm not here to misrepresent Christ.
My pastor is Dr. Bob Utley and his notes are freely available, in 50 languages, and a professor in hermeneutics.
I don't look at commentaries to exegete scriptures, I look to them since I have studied the Scriptures for 40 years.
This is an assumption on your part that I don't grow spiritually brother.

If you want to debate, I'm more than ready, other than that, please move on, my time is precious.
Johann.

 

[Johann]

You don't know me, find fault with my posts, and then discuss, I'm not here to misrepresent Christ.
My pastor is Dr. Bob Utley and his notes are freely available, in 50 languages, and a professor in hermeneutics.
I don't look at commentaries to exegete scriptures, I look to them since I have studied the Scriptures for 40 years.
This is an assumption on your part that I don't grow spiritually brother.

If you want to debate, I'm more than ready, other than that, please move on, my time is precious.
Johann.

An aside, @marks have no problem with me, so why do you?

 

[face2face]

An aside, @marks have no problem with me, so why do you?

Just an observation I've made too many times to recall. I'd like to hear what Johann believes, not the theologians, most of whom are led astray by the teachings of men.
F2F

 

[face2face]

Colossians 2:14-15 KJV
14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15) And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

@Behold ,

What does this part mean?

Thank you!

Much love!

I'm taking you up on your invitation to request a thread. If you prefer, start a new one, and post a link for me here. Thanks!

The key word here Marks is in verse 15 "them"...who is them?

Who did he lead captive through his death?

(a) the secular and/or religious enemies he resisted unto death?
(b) his own nature with all its sin-tendencies?

I assume you would understand the context does not relate to the fanciful notions of supernatural powers and the like!

Paul warned of the forces at work who were trying to bring the converts into bondage under the Law: Gal 4:10,11; 5:1-4.

F2F

 

[Johann]

(a) the secular and/or religious enemies he resisted unto death?
(b) his own nature with all its sin-tendencies?

B. His own nature with all it's sin-tendencies?

Care to elaborate?

 

[Johann]

Just an observation I've made too many times to recall. I'd like to hear what Johann believes, not the theologians, most of whom are led astray by the teachings of men.
F2F

As I've said-prove me wrong in my posts, and we may have a lively debate, always open to correction.
Johann.

 

[Johann]

Just an observation I've made too many times to recall. I'd like to hear what Johann believes, not the theologians, most of whom are led astray by the teachings of men.
F2F

You want to know Johann's belief? Listen to my pastor Dr. Bob Utley.
Shalom.

 

[face2face]

B. His own nature with all it's sin-tendencies?

Care to elaborate?

Jesus took part in his own offering...no other way for him to secure eternal redemption, if he was not saved by his own death. It's impossible to seperate Christ from his offering.

In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Heb 5:7

He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption Heb 9:12

See the issue here Johann?

If you say Jesus didnt benefit from his own blood, then what did he secure? And if he didnt secure eternal redemption for himself, how can you take part in his life/sacrifice by faith?

If eternal redemption came by the shedding of his blood, and he himself was under bondage to death, sharing in our nature (Heb 2:14) then he himself secured redemption for himself, that we might also be saved....no other way I'm afraid!

I get where this leads and its not a truth this forum is willing to accept...sadly.

F2F

 

[Johann]

Jesus took part in his own offering...no other way for him to secure eternal redemption, if he was not saved by his own death. It's impossible to seperate Christ from his offering.

Well, first of all Christ was the Asham offering, we can go back all the way to Leviticus,
--and this right here I find problematic-are you implying that Christ became a sinner-correct me if I'm reading this wrong.

 

[ChristisGod]

Well, first of all Christ was the Asham offering, we can go back all the way to Leviticus,
--and this right here I find problematic-are you implying that Christ became a sinner-correct me if I'm reading this wrong.

And Jesus had no need of saving since He is the Savior of the world as God Incarnate.

 

[Johann]

And Jesus had no need of saving since He is the Savior of the world as God Incarnate.

Correct-many here think Christ "became sin in a literal sense"

The one who in his person had no da'as of chattat (sin) [Ac 3:14; Yn 8:46; MJ 4:15; 7:26; 1K 2:22; 1Y 3:5], this one Hashem made a chattat sin offering [Ga 3:13; YESHAYAH 53:10; VAYIKRA 4:24 TARGUM HASHIVIM] on our behalf that we might become the Tzidkat Hashem [DANIEL 9:24] in Moshiach. [1C 1:30; Pp 3:9] [T.N. In this next chapter Rav Sha’ul warns against associations or worldly influences or fascinations that will contaminate the believer, who should not think he can have both the world’s evil pleasures and the House of G-d’s holy chelek.]

Johann.

 

[face2face]

Well, first of all Christ was the Asham offering, we can go back all the way to Leviticus,

correct - a shadow institution

--and this right here I find problematic-are you implying that Christ became a sinner-correct me if I'm reading this wrong.

Not so - the question is how was sin represented in him, in his nature?

Lets go back as you suiggest above to demonstrate the point.

Lev 1:4 You are to lay your hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it will be accepted on your behalf to make atonement for you.

Why did the offer lay their hand on the head of the animal?

 

[face2face]

And Jesus had no need of saving since He is the Savior of the world as God Incarnate.

Try speaking to the text...I think you will find greater wisdom concerning the true nature of Christ than making these broad brushed assumptions.

 

[face2face]

@Johann

Would you agree the action of placing the hand on the head of the animal symbolised what was about to happen to the animal, the worshipper was prepared to show in their own life? He would put to death sin in the flesh, (that he might give himself completely unto Yahweh)

F2F

 

[Johann]

correct - a shadow institution


Not so - the question is how was sin represented in him, in his nature?

Lets go back as you suiggest above to demonstrate the point.

Lev 1:4 You are to lay your hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it will be accepted on your behalf to make atonement for you.

Why did the offer lay their hand on the head of the animal?

Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our sufferings, and nasah (carried [Vayikra 16:22; Yeshayah 53:12)] our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, [i.e., like a leper is stricken] smitten of G-d, and afflicted [see verse 8 below].
Isa 53:5 But he was pierced [Yeshayah 51:9; Zecharyah 12:10 Sukkah 52a, Tehillim 22:17 Targum Hashivim] for our transgressions, he was bruised mei'avonoteinu (for our iniquities); the musar (chastisement) (that brought us shalom [Yeshayah 54:10] was upon him [Moshiach]; and at the cost of his (Moshiach's) chaburah (stripes, lacerations) we are healed.


Lev 16:21 and Aaron shall lay his hands on the head of the live goat, and he shall declare over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their unrighteousness, and all their sins; and he shall lay them upon the head of the live goat, and shall send him by the hand of a ready man into the wilderness.
Lev 16:22 And the goat shall bear their unrighteousnesses upon him into a desert land; and Aaron shall send away the goat into the wilderness.


Lev 16:21 And Aharon shall lay both his hands upon the rosh (head) of the live goat, v'hitvaddah (and confess) over him kol avonot Bnei Yisroel, and all their peysha'im in all their chattot, putting them upon the rosh of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a designated man into the midbar;
Lev 16:22 And the goat nasah (shall carry, see Isaiah 53:12) upon him all their avonot unto an eretz gezerah (uninhabited, solitary place); and he shall release the goat in the midbar.

You notice the word nasah-shall carry, same as in Isa 53-any change in the goat's nature?

 

[Johann]

@Johann

Would you agree the action of placing the hand on the head of the animal symbolised what was about to happen to the animal, the worshipper was prepared to show in their own life? He would put to death sin in the flesh, (that he might give himself completely unto Yahweh)

F2F

Already answered you, check your notification.
Johann.

 

[lforrest]

Colossians 2:14-15 KJV
14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15) And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

@Behold ,

What does this part mean?

Thank you!

Much love!

I'm taking you up on your invitation to request a thread. If you prefer, start a new one, and post a link for me here. Thanks!

The resurrection was an ultimate victory over death, and all sins which contribute to it. Jesus' resurrection was very much a public display of God overpowering his enemy's that would have seen him stay dead if it were within their power.

Recall the archangel Gabriel being delayed 21 days in Daniel 10:12-13. The struggle in the heavens is real, and it would seem the greater the threat to the enemy, the more entrenched they are, the greater the resistance.

 

[face2face]

Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our sufferings, and nasah (carried [Vayikra 16:22; Yeshayah 53:12)] our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, [i.e., like a leper is stricken] smitten of G-d, and afflicted [see verse 8 below].
Isa 53:5 But he was pierced [Yeshayah 51:9; Zecharyah 12:10 Sukkah 52a, Tehillim 22:17 Targum Hashivim] for our transgressions, he was bruised mei'avonoteinu (for our iniquities); the musar (chastisement) (that brought us shalom [Yeshayah 54:10] was upon him [Moshiach]; and at the cost of his (Moshiach's) chaburah (stripes, lacerations) we are healed.


Lev 16:21 and Aaron shall lay his hands on the head of the live goat, and he shall declare over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their unrighteousness, and all their sins; and he shall lay them upon the head of the live goat, and shall send him by the hand of a ready man into the wilderness.
Lev 16:22 And the goat shall bear their unrighteousnesses upon him into a desert land; and Aaron shall send away the goat into the wilderness.


Lev 16:21 And Aharon shall lay both his hands upon the rosh (head) of the live goat, v'hitvaddah (and confess) over him kol avonot Bnei Yisroel, and all their peysha'im in all their chattot, putting them upon the rosh of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a designated man into the midbar;
Lev 16:22 And the goat nasah (shall carry, see Isaiah 53:12) upon him all their avonot unto an eretz gezerah (uninhabited, solitary place); and he shall release the goat in the midbar.

You notice the word nasah-shall carry, same as in Isa 53-any change in goat's nature?

From your response I will assume my previous post, is also accepted.

Further to this Paul wrote: "Likewise reckon ye yourselves to be dead indeed to sin (a synonym for inordinate human desire) but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom 6:11) Here is both death and life in the one body. "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God . . . Mortify (put to death) therefore your members which are upon the earth: fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection etc. . ." (Col. 3:3-5).

The hand of the worshipper was placed heavily upon (the head of the animal, because true worshippers must become sealed in the forehead, in action that takes some effort (Rev 7:3; 14:1). The mind is to be given to God.

How did Christ mortify his members?
How did Christ become dead to sin?
How did he identify with his own nature, if it wasn’t like yours?

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, Romans 8:1-3

Christ allowed God to condemn sin in his nature the question is how was it represented in him?

Christ must have had something "in him" which needed condemning and removing.

"without the shedding of blood (a dedicated life, the positive aspect of sacrifice) there is no remission" (Heb. 9:22).

Christ must in everyway represent those he saved...any advantage to his nature disqualifies him from the shadow institution.

In other words if he didnt mortify his members he cannot be a sacrfice for our sins.

F2F

 

[Johann]

From your response I will assume my previous post, is also accepted.

Further to this Paul wrote: "Likewise reckon ye yourselves to be dead indeed to sin (a synonym for inordinate human desire) but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom 6:11) Here is both death and life in the one body. "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God . . . Mortify (put to death) therefore your members which are upon the earth: fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection etc. . ." (Col. 3:3-5).

The hand of the worshipper was placed heavily upon (the head of the animal, because true worshippers must become sealed in the forehead, in action that takes some effort (Rev 7:3; 14:1). The mind is to be given to God.

How did Christ mortify his members?
How did Christ become dead to sin?
How did he identify with his own nature, if it wasn’t like yours?

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, Romans 8:1-3

Christ allowed God to condemn sin in his nature the question is how was it represented in him?

Christ must have had something "in him" which needed condemning and removing.

"without the shedding of blood (a dedicated life, the positive aspect of sacrifice) there is no remission" (Heb. 9:22).

Christ must in everyway represent those he saved...any advantage to his nature disqualifies him from the shadow institution.

In other words if he didnt mortify his members he cannot be a sacrfice for our sins.

F2F

Rom_6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Rom_8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Php_2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
In the likeness of sinful flesh
Lit., of the flesh of sin. The choice of words is especially noteworthy. Paul does not say simply, “He came in flesh” (1Jn_4:2; 1Ti_3:16), for this would not have expressed the bond between Christ's manhood and sin. Not in the flesh of sin, which would have represented Him as partaking of sin. Not in the likeness of flesh, since He was really and entirely human; but, in the likeness of the flesh of sin: really human, conformed in appearance to the flesh whose characteristic is sin, yet sinless. “Christ appeared in a body which was like that of other men in so far as it consisted of flesh, and was unlike in so far as the flesh was not flesh of sin” (Dickson).

So how did Jesus condemn sin in the flesh?-or in the nature?

Condemned sin in the flesh (katekrine tēn hamartian en tēi sarki). First aorist active indicative of katakrinō.

He condemned the sin of men and the condemnation took place in the flesh of Jesus. If the article tēn had been repeated before en tēi sarki Paul would have affirmed sin in the flesh of Jesus, but he carefully avoided that (Robertson, Grammar, p. 784).

 

[Johann]

How did he identify with his own nature, if it wasn’t like yours?

How did Christ condemn sin? In the flesh-or nature?

We need to be careful in our wording.
Condemned sin in the flesh (katekrine tēn hamartian en tēi sarki). First aorist active indicative of katakrinō. He condemned the sin of men and the condemnation took place in the flesh of Jesus. If the article tēn had been repeated before en tēi sarki Paul would have affirmed sin in the flesh of Jesus, but he carefully avoided that (Robertson, Grammar, p. 784).

Heb 10:5 Therefore, when he comes into the Olam Hazeh, he says "ZEVACH UMINCHAH LO CHAFATZTA ("sacrifice and offering" Ps 40:7 (6) You did not desire but a body you prepared for me; (Ps 39:7 TARGUM HA-SHIVIM)