Walking In Faith By the Word of God!

[quietthinker]

So you disagree, not with me, but the Scriptures?
So, if I understand you correctly, you conveniently "skip" the wrath and Hell of a holy YHVH, and stay with the 4 gospel accounts?
Or is this a wrong "assumption" on my part?

2Ti 2:14 These things remind them of, testifying fully before the Lord—not to strive about words to nothing profitable, but to the subversion of those hearing;
2Ti 2:15 be diligent to present thyself approved to God—a workman irreproachable, rightly dividing the word of the truth;

--or are we "selective" in the studying of Scripture-

What is your gospel to a lost and dying world-"God is all love" and that's it?

Waiting-this is getting interesting.
Johann.

Paul defines God's wrath in Romans 1:18-31. He 'gives them over', vs 24, 26 and 28. What does he give them over to?... to the naturally resulting consequences of their choices.....depravity, breakdown and finally death.

It appears to me that you want to define God's wrath as some arbitrary affliction that God loads onto those who don't dance to his tune?

Is it thought that God rejoices/ gets satisfaction in his children making a mess of their lives and their resulting death? ..... he who loved them to the point of dying for them?...I don't think so. I think God weeps and will weep even at the final demise of his bright shining angel who turned against him.

Do I disagree with the scriptures? It will depend on which scriptures. Would you participate in the stoning of certain law breakers like those committing adultery? as commanded by Moses or burning certain ones?

Jesus left no doubt what his position was when the religious tight shorts tried to trap him using scripture in the account of the woman they dragged before him caught in adultery. Moses in the law commanded such to be stoned they gleefully asserted. They weaponised scripture. His reply, 'he who is without sin cast the first stone' and finally to the woman, 'neither do I condemn you'
Did he contradict scripture? ...of course he did.

There are plenty of other examples also. Jesus would say, 'you have heard said.... but I say unto you', the 'but' contradicts what they had heard said.....and where had they heard it said? from the scriptures of course!

Would you weaponise scripture to contradict Jesus when the writer of Hebrews is clear that Jesus is the express image of the Almighty?
The way this conversation is going, it appears you would.

Talk about rightly dividing......we need to know who the final authority is......and if you had watched Brians presentation, you might have understood this.

 

[Episkopos]

Paul defines God's wrath in Romans 1:18-31. He 'gives them over', vs 24, 26 and 28. What does he give them over to?... to the naturally resulting consequences of their choices.....depravity, breakdown and finally death.

It appears to me that you want to define God's wrath as some arbitrary affliction that God loads onto those who don't dance to his tune?

Is it thought that God rejoices/ gets satisfaction in his children making a mess of their lives and their resulting death? ..... he who loved them to the point of dying for them?...I don't think so. I think God weeps and will weep even at the final demise of his bright shining angel who turned against him.

Do I disagree with the scriptures? It will depend on which scriptures. Would you participate in the stoning of certain law breakers like those committing adultery? as commanded by Moses or burning certain ones?

Do you agree with Ananias and Sapphira being killed by the Spirit at the command of Peter in Acts?

I think that Zahnd, and by extension, you, don't appreciate God's holiness or the laws that are based on holiness.

You can't compare righteousness and holiness.

Was it right that Uzzah died for trying to do the "right thing" by steadying the cart that the ark was riding on???

Holiness doesn't respect people's misguided efforts. We have to make room for God's holiness...IF we wish to live in His presence. Without holiness none shall see God.

Jesus left no doubt what his position was when the religious tight shorts tried to trap him using scripture in the account of the woman they dragged before him caught in adultery. Moses in the law commanded such to be stoned they gleefully asserted. They weaponised scripture. His reply, 'he who is without sin cast the first stone' and finally to the woman, 'neither do I condemn you'
Did he contradict scripture? ...of course he did.

Did Jesus destroy the law by being merciful? No, He showed that mercy triumphs over judgment. Without the law people are lawless. The women deserved to die...but mercy transforms people. If she did it again, then she would die.

There are plenty of other examples also. Jesus would say, 'you have heard said.... but I say unto you', the 'but' contradicts what they had heard said.....and where had they heard it said? from the scriptures of course!

Not contradicts...but shows a higher law. The law of gravity kills people who try to fly BUT there is another law of flight that overcomes gravity. My testimony is having overcome gravity through a number of domestic flights in Canada.

Would you weaponise scripture to contradict Jesus when the writer of Hebrews is clear that Jesus is the express image of the Almighty?
The way this conversation is going, it appears you would.

That cuts both ways. A misreading of the bible either way destroys God's ways...which are based BOTH on mercy AND truth.

Talk about rightly dividing......we need to know who the final authority is......and if you had watched Brians presentation, you might have understood this.

Is that final authority Mr. Zahnd? It's obviously not the bible.

But I will give him this...that he understands that mercy triumphs over dogmatic religiosity.

 

[quietthinker]

Do you agree with Ananias and Sapphira being killed by the Spirit at the command of Peter in Acts?

It is assumed God killed them. I think exposure of what they deemed hidden generated a heart attack and God is made responsible.

Was it right that Uzzah died for trying to do the "right thing" by steadying the cart that the ark was riding on???

Uzzah died for touching it but what about all the Philistines that did the same and didn't die?
Keeping in mind that the Hebrews believed God was responsible for everything, both good and bad, they write as if God killed him. Their premise is wrong and subsequently their conclusion.

Is that final authority Mr. Zahnd? It's obviously not the bible.

now that is clearly wrongly dividing.....it is an incorrect representation of my point.

Law is better than anarchy but grace is better than law.....or one could substitute the word 'higher' for better

 

[Johann]

We know with all the silly rhetoric of condemning a person in an entirety...like...you have a fake Jesus or false gospel....that usually this means a person is going too far in the other direction.

What people generally lack is a proper balance.


Zahnd is right about God's mercy, but wrong in his view about God's judgment and the value of the bible-especially the OT.

Winger is correct in his critique of Zahnd's reading of the OT, but is unable to see beyond what a smug dogmatic view of God's mercy can tolerate.

Talk about rightly dividing......we need to know who the final authority is......and if you had watched Brians presentation, you might have understood this.

You are making an appeal based on emotions-not the Scriptures.
Our final authority is the Scripture-and you are all out "divorcing" the Scriptures from the Christ-or-reading the "good parts" neglecting the attributes of Christ and YHVH.
Shalom
Johann.

 

[Johann]

Paul defines God's wrath in Romans 1:18-31. He 'gives them over', vs 24, 26 and 28. What does he give them over to?... to the naturally resulting consequences of their choices.....depravity, breakdown and finally death.

It appears to me that you want to define God's wrath as some arbitrary affliction that God loads onto those who don't dance to his tune?

Is it thought that God rejoices/ gets satisfaction in his children making a mess of their lives and their resulting death? ..... he who loved them to the point of dying for them?...I don't think so. I think God weeps and will weep even at the final demise of his bright shining angel who turned against him.

Do I disagree with the scriptures? It will depend on which scriptures. Would you participate in the stoning of certain law breakers like those committing adultery? as commanded by Moses or burning certain ones?

Jesus left no doubt what his position was when the religious tight shorts tried to trap him using scripture in the account of the woman they dragged before him caught in adultery. Moses in the law commanded such to be stoned they gleefully asserted. They weaponised scripture. His reply, 'he who is without sin cast the first stone' and finally to the woman, 'neither do I condemn you'
Did he contradict scripture? ...of course he did.

There are plenty of other examples also. Jesus would say, 'you have heard said.... but I say unto you', the 'but' contradicts what they had heard said.....and where had they heard it said? from the scriptures of course!

Would you weaponise scripture to contradict Jesus when the writer of Hebrews is clear that Jesus is the express image of the Almighty?
The way this conversation is going, it appears you would.

Talk about rightly dividing......we need to know who the final authority is......and if you had watched Brians presentation, you might have understood this.

Again, appealing to emotion, not Scriptures-

God is ALL love-that's your gospel.

Johann.

 

[bro.tan]

You said: "We MUST work to GET salvation--this is backwards-

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk.


For we are His masterpiece, having been created in Moshiach Yehoshua for ma'asim tovim, which Hashem prepared beforehand, that the derech of our halakhah should be in them.[YESHAYAH 29:23; 42:7; 60:21;]

Are you in any ministerial work/outreach to the poor and disenfranchised?
You see, for me, going to a Church, listening to a sermon, shake hands with the pastor after-going home, kick off your shoes, and switch on the TV-is NOT a ekklesia.
So what is your vocation?

Instead of trying to get understanding and fellowshipping about the matter, you use Paul writing over my verse of Paul's writing, and what I wrote says exactly that "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12).

Paul said in (Gal. 6 (v.3) For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. (v.4) But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. The book says let every man prove his own work, and if your work is good then you will rejoice in it. (v.5) For every man shall bear his own burden. That’s right; every man must bear his own burden. You mean you thought that all you had to do was confess the name of Jesus and that was it? Brothers and sisters you must work to get salvation. (v.7) Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. God is not to be played with. Whatsoever you plant, that’s what you are going to reap. Be it good works unto eternal life, or evil works unto eternal damnation. The choice is yours, and your works belong to you.

 

[bro.tan]

To work out your own salvation with fear and trembling means that we have to come to terms with our shadow self. Once we have done that the Holy Spirit comes down and gifts us eternal life. Heaven consists of no fear. It is only the lies and ego that cast a big shadow within the psyche that will haved to be dealt with before anyone is to experience salvation.

Sorry to break it to everyone but salvation takes inner work. Its a hard destructive proccess that not many people are willing to go through.

Reading a prayer will not give you salvation. This is a lie and takes easy to those who live in fear and lack in courage to work on themselves.

To work out your Salvation with fear and trembling means you have to keep from sinning, especially wilful sin. Paul say in (Rom. 4:15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. If there is no law there is no sin. Paul says in (1Cor. 14:37) If any man thinks himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Paul didn’t come preaching and teaching his own thing, but he abided in the doctrine of Christ. (Rom. 3:20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sights for by the law is the knowledge of sin. The deeds of the law is referring to the animal sacrificial laws, all those sacrifices can never remove sins, so they could never be justified. This is true because the blood of Jesus can only justify us. The animal sacrificial laws was added because people continue to sin, and the wages of sin bring for death. So instead of God killing people every time they sin, the Lord gave Moses a law to use, animals. So by the other law (Ten Commandments, statutes and Judgement) is the knowledge of sin.

Paul says in Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. You wouldn’t know what sin was if there was no law.

 

[bro.tan]

Yes it does, and it also says that salvation is by grace through faith, and NOT of works, so what are we to make of that?

We must do good works, and we are saved by grace through faith? There IS an answer, that doesn't deny the meaning of either passage.

Much love!

Paul says in Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. So when you quoted all the places in the Bible that do away with this animal sacrificial law, not understanding that Paul talks about two sets of law. The Royal law (Ten Commandments) and the animal sacrificial law sometimes in the same verse you bring can bring destruction to yourself not knowing which law is which. At some point common sense you kick in. If I'm reading about the doing away of a law or not under a law, then somewhere else Paul tell you that the law is Holy just and good, another place break mostly all the Ten commandments down. A light bulb should come on in your head, Paul have to be talking about two sets of laws. In other places Paul explain the animal sacrificial law.

If you are following all of the writing of Paul, then you will find out that you are following Jesus, and if you are truly following Jesus then you are following the law of God.

 

[marks]

Paul says in Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Paul is not in this statement putting us under a Law that he will, in a few chapters, declare that we have died to, so that we can be married to Another.

Rather, that we must be saved by faith establishes the Law in it's given ministry of death and condemnation. No one can be saved by the Law, you must be saved by faith, because the Law Does condemn you, it Does kill you. No way out, except faith.

Much love!

 

[marks]

If you are following all of the writing of Paul, then you will find out that you are following Jesus, and if you are truly following Jesus then you are following the law of God.

Don't limit yourself to following a set of written commandments that were a covenant with someone else, not you. I'm sorry, Are you actually Jewish? If so I stand corrected!

And even being Jewish, again, follow Christ, His Spirit of life in you, living out a life of loving service to others as the Spirit guides, not to memorizing and interpreting and applying Laws that were never intended for the children of God, rather the unrighteous and ungodly.

But you are right in saying we keep the Law of Christ, that is the Law of Christ, to walk in love and sacrifice for others, in His power.

Much love!

 

[Keturah]

Don't ya just hate when the conversation gets too deep for folks to answer the questions THE WORLD asks of believers and instead resort to asking rather than answering !

 

[marks]

Paul didn’t come preaching and teaching his own thing, but he abided in the doctrine of Christ. (Rom. 3:20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sights for by the law is the knowledge of sin. The deeds of the law is referring to the animal sacrificial laws, all those sacrifices can never remove sins, so they could never be justified. This is true because the blood of Jesus can only justify us. The animal sacrificial laws was added because people continue to sin, and the wages of sin bring for death. So instead of God killing people every time they sin, the Lord gave Moses a law to use, animals. So by the other law (Ten Commandments, statutes and Judgement) is the knowledge of sin.

God's standard was declared through James, that if you break one Law, you are a Lawbreaker, pure and simple. The Law is not something that someone can carve up and declare This part is still Valid, but That part is Not. No, if you break a law, you are a lawbreaker.

And that works like ringing a bell. This is Perfect Tense, has become guilty of all. If you've ever broken one commandment, all the Law will ever do is condemn you. It's standard is absolute.

That's why God goes on to say a bit later,

James 2:12 KJV
So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

And then goes on to tell us that unless we are doing the works that accompany living faith, we don't have that faith. Just like Abraham. He would never have raised the knive over Isaac unless he actually believed God would then raise him from the dead. God had promised Abraham ancestors through Isaac, and Abraham believed God's promise.

The Letter speaks to us death and condemnation, turn to hear the Spirit, listen to the Lawgiver Himself, in His sharing in your moment by moment living.

Much love!

 

[quietthinker]

Don't ya just hate when the conversation gets too deep for folks to answer the questions THE WORLD asks of believers and instead resort to asking rather than answering !

Thoughtful questions knock at the door of preconceived ideas. It is the way God challenges those he loves. Error is threatened and truth is confirmed.

'Too deep' is an interesting comment. Does it imply undeveloped discernment? Does it imply a lazy half hearted interest? Does it imply a satisfaction with the lukewarm?

 

[quietthinker]

You are making an appeal based on emotions-not the Scriptures.
Our final authority is the Scripture-and you are all out "divorcing" the Scriptures from the Christ-or-reading the "good parts" neglecting the attributes of Christ and YHVH.
Shalom
Johann.

I am making an appeal based on the preeminence of Jesus.

 

[quietthinker]

You are making an appeal based on emotions-not the Scriptures.
Our final authority is the Scripture-and you are all out "divorcing" the Scriptures from the Christ-or-reading the "good parts" neglecting the attributes of Christ and YHVH.
Shalom
Johann.

I am making an appeal based on the preeminence of Jesus.

 

[amigo de christo]

Again, appealing to emotion, not Scriptures-

God is ALL love-that's your gospel.

Johann.

And if you even examine their version of LOVE , it wont take long to realize , IT AINT COMING FROM GOD .
its coming from darkness , from the flesh , its wordly , sensual and it embraces sin .
calling evil good and good evil . Clinging to the wrong rainbow and holler budda is a way to GOD
and muslims have their way to GOD and everyone has their own path to GOD . What a lie that all is .
GOD required THIS . TO LOVE THE LORD THY GOD ABOVE ALL , HIS CHRIST ABOVE ALL
and to love thy neighbor as yourself . SO if our love DISHONORS GOD , WELL it sure aint coming FROM GOD now is it .
Too many are following another god , another love , another go spell , a lie . TWO SIMPLE commandments
SUM UP the ENTIRE LAW .
LOVE THE LORD THY GOD with all your heart , all your mind , all your soul and then love your neighbor as YOURSELF .
IF the LOVE of GOD has truly been shed on our hearts , THEN WHY do so many
have zero desire to HONOR HIM and rather preach a love that honors Sins and puts man BEFORE GOD .
Sure they holler love your neighbor . They cant even do that right .
IF one loves GOD , they would have LOVED HIS CHRIST . so there is that .
And if one has the love of GOD in their heart , THEY WOULD Call good what he calls good
and they would hate the evil deeds that HE does hate . THEY WONT EMBRACE SIN and call it good .

 

[amigo de christo]

Again, appealing to emotion, not Scriptures-

God is ALL love-that's your gospel.

Johann.

The devils plan for the last days . IS TO JOIN mankind as one under a false love that honors him
to join the religoins as one under him . And it has been at work big time , specially as of late .
The lambs must contend for the true faith .
Here is a simple reminder that more and more no longer even believe as they accept all religions as valid ways to GOD .
But i will remind us anyway . HE who believes NOT that JESUS is the CHRIST , he is anti christ that denies
the Father and the SON . JOHN KNEW they had to beleive on JESUS as the CHRIST . today
they call john a liar . Heck they call GOD a liar . If one recieves not the testimony that GOD gave of HIS SON
they call GOD a liar . And that too is a fact . SO TEll me
how on earth all these other religoins who DONT follow CHRIST , dont even BELIEVE HE IS THE CHRIST
dont even believe HE is the SON OF GOD , SUDDENLY NOW ALL ACCEPTED IN THE SIGHT OF GOD ANWAY .
ITS ALL A LIE johann . AND i am gonna expose it no matter how hated i am for doing so .
THEY cant save themeselves . Budda cant save anyone . man cannot save himself . BUT GOD CAN , JESUS CAN .
SO POINT TO HE ALONE I SHALL no matter how resisted it is nor how hated i be for doing so .
We point to CHRIST . now lift those hands up and let the LORD , the glorious LORD be praised and thanked continuouly .

 

[quietthinker]

And if you even examine their version of LOVE , it wont take long to realize , IT AINT COMING FROM GOD .
its coming from darkness , from the flesh , its wordly , sensual and it embraces sin .
calling evil good and good evil . Clinging to the wrong rainbow and holler budda is a way to GOD
and muslims have their way to GOD and everyone has their own path to GOD . What a lie that all is .
GOD required THIS . TO LOVE THE LORD THY GOD ABOVE ALL , HIS CHRIST ABOVE ALL
and to love thy neighbor as yourself . SO if our love DISHONORS GOD , WELL it sure aint coming FROM GOD now is it .
Too many are following another god , another love , another go spell , a lie . TWO SIMPLE commandments
SUM UP the ENTIRE LAW .
LOVE THE LORD THY GOD with all your heart , all your mind , all your soul and then love your neighbor as YOURSELF .
IF the LOVE of GOD has truly been shed on our hearts , THEN WHY do so many
have zero desire to HONOR HIM and rather preach a love that honors Sins and puts man BEFORE GOD .
Sure they holler love your neighbor . They cant even do that right .
IF one loves GOD , they would have LOVED HIS CHRIST . so there is that .
And if one has the love of GOD in their heart , THEY WOULD Call good what he calls good
and they would hate the evil deeds that HE does hate . THEY WONT EMBRACE SIN and call it good .

I notice there's a lot of 'they's' and similar pointing to the mistakes or perceived mistakes of others....hmmm

 

[amigo de christo]

I notice there's a lot of 'they's' and similar pointing to the mistakes or perceived mistakes of others....hmmm

instead of rallying on emotions , bring some scrips to make your point . Oh wait you cant .
cause GOD himself testfied OF CHRIST JESUS . not of budda , not of the muslim religoin nor any other path .
Lest you want to call GOD a liar , I SUGGEST you start pointing to CHRIST ALONE for no other path , no other
religion will save a soul . GOTTA BELIEVE ON THE CHRIST OF GOD . PS make darn sure its the biblical JESUS too
cause far too many preach another jesus , another go spell , another spirit and so many bear with them and accept the lie .

 

[amigo de christo]

I notice there's a lot of 'they's' and similar pointing to the mistakes or perceived mistakes of others....hmmm

I notice there is a lot of lack of sound biblical doctrine . Try bringing it to prove me wrong .
Lets get back in the bible and learn that GOD , HIS CHRIST and all sound doctrine the apostels left us . love and embrace it .