PAUL WROTE DO NOT LISTEN TO THE PRETRIB RAPTURE TEACHERS

[Randy Kluth]

What is to ignore? Do you not lump the marriage supper and Rapture and return of Jesus to the earth into one event?? If so, that warrants exposure.

That kind of "exposure" doesn't embarrass me! I *want* that kind of exposure--I want the truth of what I believe to come out and be scrutinized, to see if it is the word of God. After all, we want the word of God, right--not something that we concoct?

The Marriage Supper is the commencement of our earthly inheritance. The Rapture is our transformation into immortality. And Jesus' Return brings about all these things in an instant, like lightning lighting up the skies in a moment of time.

We all appear with him in glory, because we are instantly transformed into immortals. That is the start of our inheritance of the earth, when we come back, just like lightning strikes, to dispossess the earth of Antichristianity and to establish the rule of God's Kingdom. That is the word of God, I believe.

No one questions that. What are you talking about? The problem is you take three events and stuff them into that same instant!

I don't "stuff" them anywhere! That is how the Hope of Israel was presented. And that's how Christ presented them. Jesus referred to the "Last Day." Jesus said he is coming back to dispossess the earth of the wicked like a "thief in the night." What about this is not simultaneous to you?

Be honest. Do you claim that the believers are taken up into the air, and then the marriage supper and the return to earth happen all in the same moment? If so, that is the yo yo theory in living color! If not be clear. Wiggling will not work here.

Who is wiggling? I've been saying this all along! It is not, to me, a "yo yo theory" because it is simultaneous, and in an instant. A yo yo takes time and has a process, which I've suggested you get past.

Yes there is! You are saying we go up like a yo yo on a string to meet Jesus as He is on His way down, and then come down with Him. All in a flash. That is unsound. That insults out great union in heaven called the marriage feast. It belittles it. It ignores that we all leave FROM HEAVEN when we come with Jesus back down to the earth. Your argument is crystal clear.

We unite in heaven and return with Christ and are revealed from heaven in an instant. That is not an insult. I just define the Marriage Supper differently than you do.

You think it is logical and sound to view a supper taking place up in the sky, while you declare "unsound" my view that a Marriage Supper takes place on earth. You declare as "unsound" my view that the Marriage Supper is symbolic of the commencement of our inheritance of the earth, the beginning of our enjoyment of God's Kingdom on earth? Whose view sounds more "unsound" to you--a party in a vacuum in space or a celebration on earth, symbolized by a marriage supper?

I'm not belittling your view. I'm only pointing out that a mechanical process cannot explain miracles. I cannot explain, by mechanical means, or by physics, how we can be instantly transformed and revealed from heaven in the same second of time.

Neither can you explain a heavenly party. So let's leave the mechanics and the physics behind, and look at what the Bible means by the use of these symbols. He wants us to begin our enjoyment of the inheritance of God's Kingdom on earth. Prove me wrong!

The thingie in heaven takes place first because that is where both we and Jesus come FROM to come down to the earth. Heavens opens and down we come. That does not fit a lighting fast little yo yo trip.

Once again, that is a "process" problem. Of course we can meet Christ and return to earth in the same instant by God's power. This is only explaining where we get our new bodies from--it is from Christ in heaven!

He is our Redeemer! It has nothing to do with how much time it takes to go to heaven, get our new bodies, turn around, appear in the clouds, and return to the earth. This has nothing to do with "yo yo's!"

He does that alone. We are spectators at first. He does not need our help! We are there because we will always be with Him where He is and He is coming down to earth at that time. He also will have us rule with Him when He takes care of business. That is not the time for a feast and part and getting to know you session! That is the time nations are dashed to pieces and the wicked killed.

Of course it's time to feast once the Kingdom of God has taken over the kingdoms of the world. Time to celebrate the spoils of war!

I don't know! He destroys all the wicked. He takes over the world. He tosses the antichist into the lake of fire. We are not told how long so why assume it is all instant? One possibility I see in Scripture is that it takes many days! Remember how in Daniel we are told the end comes in 1269 days? Later we are given another time period of an extra 30 days and then another of 15 more days if I recall! What are these for?

Those days have to do with Antiochus 4. He terrorized Israel for 1290 days. The news got back to Israel by the 1335th day.

To be clear then that yo yo is real fast in your theory!

If you must!

Once Jesus gets hold of him, sure. The thing is He does more than one thing when He returns, such as have His feet land on the mount of Olives. So if you claim that in less than a second after Jesus returns the leader of the world is tossed into the lake, we need some proof.

Back to "process" questions?

That is opinion. The bible talks about the event of the supper in a scene in heaven. Later, heaven opens and we all come down to planet earth.

Talking about the supper in heaven does not indicate where the supper takes place. The invitation is reiterated in heaven, and thus, there is rejoicing. But the commencement of our enjoyment of the Kingdom of God on earth is, I believe, the "Supper."

 

[dad]

no scripture from you

just blah blah blah

I could give you plenty but you would just crunch them all together in a ball without understanding them. Looks like you are stuck to your yo yo theory. Cheers.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I could give you plenty but you would just crunch them all together in a ball without understanding them. Looks like you are stuck to your yo yo theory. Cheers.

Nice cop out. Tell me, why will we meet Christ in the air when He comes if we are then going to be taken to heaven? Why not just meet Him in heaven?

 

[dad]

We should call it that because scripture does.

I agree since the only Scripture posted with 'second time' in it was talking about the rapture! You can call it a tomato if you like. The problem is we are not talking about the same thing. You are talking about some micro second event that encompasses the marriage supper, the Rapture and the return of Christ to earth, no? Maybe we should call that something so people recognize what you are actually saying. Maybe call it yo yo return?

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

For the umteenth time He is coming to get us. Not to land on the planet. Later we all come on down. What are you missing here?

Which coming of the Lord is this? Obviously, not the first one.

The Rapture. Is it not obvious?

So, that means this is referring to the second "coming of the Lord". So, it's not about what we want to call it, it's about what it is and what scripture calls it.

Great call the rapture anything you like. It doesn't matter since you don't believe in it as a separate event anyhow. Again meditate on the words up, and down. That should clue you in.

Where does scripture differentiate between a future coming of the Lord that is not to the earth and a future coming of the Lord that is to the earth?

Did you think the air was 'on the earth'? No. Ponder the words 'up' and 'down'.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I agree since the only Scripture posted with 'second time' in it was talking about the rapture! You can call it a tomato if you like. The problem is we are not talking about the same thing. You are talking about some micro second event that encompasses the marriage supper, the Rapture and the return of Christ to earth, no? Maybe we should call that something so people recognize what you are actually saying. Maybe call it yo yo return?

Are you a child? You come across like a hyperactive little child who just started reading the Bible yesterday. Good grief. Calm down. I am an amillennialist so I don't believe that we will be coming right back down to the earth after we meet Him in the air. But, I don't believe we will be taken to heaven after that, either.

Tell me, do you believe the following will happen when the rapture happens?

2 Thess 1:10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

For the umteenth time He is coming to get us. Not to land on the planet. Later we all come on down. What are you missing here?

I'm not missing anything. I don't claim that we are taken back to the earth after that. Why not just meet Him on the earth if that was the case, right? But it also isn't scriptural to say we will be taken to heaven at that point. Why not just meet Him in heaven if that was the case? Instead, scripture teaches that He will burn up the earth and destroy all unbelievers at that point (2 Peter 3:10-12) and then the resurrection of the unbelieving dead and the judgment will occur. And Revelation 20:11 indicates that the judgment will take place neither in heaven nor on earth.

The Rapture. Is it not obvious?

The rapture occurs at that time, but the answer is that it's talking about His second coming. And there won't be a third coming after that as you falsely believe. He will only be descending from heaven once in the future.

Great call the rapture anything you like. It doesn't matter since you don't believe in it as a separate event anyhow. Again meditate on the words up, and down. That should clue you in.

Did you think the air was 'on the earth'? No. Ponder the words 'up' and 'down'.

You're making a fool of yourself here by just assuming I'm a post-trib premil who thinks we will be caught up in the air and then taken immediately back down to the earth. But, that is not what I believe. The air is obviously somewhere above the earth. It's likely a reference to the earth's atmosphere somewhere up there. After all, it does say we will be caught UP.

 

[David in NJ]

I could give you plenty but you would just crunch them all together in a ball without understanding them. Looks like you are stuck to your yo yo theory. Cheers.

Here is the cancer of pre-trib rapture - 2 Timothy 2:15-18 = this is your falsehood of saints after "pre-trib"

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.

 

[dad]

Yes, dad, I believe in the "great trifecta!"

Otherwise known as the pee wee yo yo theory. Or the great clumping together or prophetic events!

And I also believe in the 1000 year reign of Christ on this earth. For glorified saints it will be but the beginning of an eternal inheritance of the earth. For mortals who continue on the earth as such, it is one more opportunity to fulfill what God promised, a Kingdom of God on earth.

Great, at least you seem to believe in the millennium.

Ladd is exceptional and well-received, a NT scholar. And he is at the very top of authority on modern eschatology.

I pity the people that think that. He is obviously a clumper. A yoyoist!

What I liked about Ladd was his amazingly "Christian" ability to present his own view together with alternate views in such a fair way that one would have to decide for himself which view to take.

If I had no convictions I might do the same. Anything goes.

Usually, an author dresses up his own view to look like the obvious choice! Even if you don't agree with him, it's rewarding to read him. You may find your own view fairly represented!

I don't need the guy to include the actual truth in with his pile of chosen possibilities. Thanks.

You're not understanding my argument. The "process" I refer to is your concern about the "yo yo"--how can something go up and down at the same time?

I think some poster claimed it was in a flash. That is not right away. They place the marriage supper, the return of Jesus to the earth, and the Rapture all in a micro second. Look at a yo yo. It does not go up and down right away!

That is a process. How can a Marriage Feast in heaven take place at the same time on earth? That is a process--how does one get from one place to another at the same time?

Who said anything about earth? The bible has the scene in heaven before which Jesus opens heaven and comes down here to earth. Only you claim the supper is on earth! The supper on earth is one where the birds are ordered to eat the dead wicked! Different suppers. Does that sound like a fragrant inspiring wedding place to you?

I'm not calling the transformation to immortality a "process" because it isn't. It is instantaneous, in a "twinkling of an eye." That was my point! My point was, stop being concerned about the process of getting something from A to B when that is easily explained.

I am not concerned and never mentions it as any concern whatsoever. Call it whatever you like. Most people think of it as the Rapture.

How is that easily explained? It is not explained as a process of mechanically lifting something from A to B, from earth to heaven--it is instantaneous. I never said A goes to B and B goes to A in any other way than as "instantaneous," ie in any means describing a process of travel. There is no mechanical means by which A can got to B and B can go to A at the same time through mechanical means!

Who mentioned mechanical but you? Why even talk about it? How God does it no one knows.

I wasn't using a strawman argument--just responding to the validity of focusing on inheritances!

Yet the Rapture verses I recall don't mention inheritance. You did. Why obsess?

You seemed to demean that. And inheritances are essential when considering biblical prophecy, which focuses on our inheritance of God's Kingdom on earth. That's why we must come back with Christ in glorified bodies to inherit with him the earth. And we must go up to heaven to begin with to get our glorified bodies so that we may do precisely that!

We are not at the wedding supper just because we want some goods. Nor is inheriting things a big part of it. That is the time however, when the rewards are handed out. So that is great and something to look forward to. That is another strike against the yo yo theory though! No way are billions of believers individually rewarded faster than one could say, 'step up on stage'.

All this is explained not as a process, but as a miracle. It is never explained how we get new bodies--only that we must be caught up to heaven to get them from Christ. And we get them *as he comes back* so that we may participate with him in his return, in his inheritance.

It was not me mentioning process to begin with. Remember? I pointed out the prophetic events happened in an order a sequence.
As for your latest claim that we get new bodies 'as He comes back' that is another wholly made up claim.

We are a delegation going out to meet the dignitary in the air so that we may possess the earth together with him.

No, so that we may party in heaven! Later we mosey on back down with Him when He returns to the earth. No verse says we shoot out to meet Him on the way down! We go up to be forever with Him, and go to the place He prepared for us. From that place (heaven) we later return with Jesus to the earth.

None of this has a thing to do with a mechanical process of moving us from earth to the air, and from the air back to the earth--your "yo yo theory."

Not my theory. Yours. I point out that the bible does not say we shoot up to meet Him and immediately shoot back down again. That is foolishness.

The whole thing is instantaneous--a yo yo is *not* instantaneous.

What whole thing? The trifecta of the marriage supper/Rapture/Return of Christ to earth ? Ha

That's why I said you should avoid "process" and just believe Scriptures, which indicate this really is going to happen.

I mentioned the sequence and order, process is something someone else mentioned and out of context as well.

It is not my "yo yo scheme," but your characterization. We meet the dignitary and return with him. That is a "yo yo?" What a crass representation of a Scriptural event!

The yo yo goes up and down. No heaven involved, no throne of God, no marriage, no rewards, no reuniting with loved ones of all ages, just some imaginary instant shooting up and down to the sky for no apparent reason. Then you have us all coming down to the stinking war torn earth full of dead bodies for a marriage feast! Truly unsound.

Yes, the "air" is "heaven."

Ah, you said it! Ha. That would mean Jesus did not come down here to the air somewhere! Gong! Obviously unbiblical. He comes a second time when we meet Him in the air! You have no second coming but just us shot to heaven. Then you have us all shot back all in a moment!

Jesus comes with the clouds, and is descending *from heaven* to the earth.

No. We meet Him in the air, that is clear. Not on earth.

We meet him in his descent to the earth after instantly being transformed into his glorious image. It is *instantaneous*--not a "yo yo!" We instantly appear with him in the clouds, and emerge on earth.

No. It says He comes and gathers us up in the air. It does not say anything about some instant round trip.

Where did I say the "air" was not "heaven?" Perhaps you have me mixed up with someone else? Not my problem, dad.

Perhaps. But your claim failed here as pointed out.

 

[dad]

REVELATION 3:22 KJV
****"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

PSALMS 85:8 KJV
*****"I will hear what God the LORD will speak: for he will speak peace unto his people, and to his saints: but let them NOT TURN AGAIN to folly."

REVELATION 22:17 KJV
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, COME. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely".

REVELATION 2:7 KJV
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

REVELATION 2:17 KJV
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it."

8 times in the first few chapters even in Revelations is this said " he that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith...........

If we live & walk in the Spirit, let us HEAR WHAT HE SAYS!

So what is it you think the spirit said regarding the topic?

 

[dad]

Here is the cancer of pre-trib rapture - 2 Timothy 2:15-18 = this is your falsehood of saints after "pre-trib"

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.

Off topic spam. Why not surprise us and address the issues and post verses that fit at least a little bit?

 

[dad]

They all knew it was a one time deal . Not two comings , ONE COMING and ya better be ready .
Tribulation cometh and it comes against the lambs in the land and it comes SOON .

They all knew nothing of the sort

 

[dad]

Are you a child? You come across like a hyperactive little child who just started reading the Bible yesterday. Good grief. Calm down. I am an amillennialist so I don't believe that we will be coming right back down to the earth after we meet Him in the air. But, I don't believe we will be taken to heaven after that, either.

So why not tell us what you do believe rather than childish insult attempts? So we go up in the air...then...?

Tell me, do you believe the following will happen when the rapture happens?

2 Thess 1:10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Since it says this right before, it is talking about His return to earth


2 Thessalonians 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance ..

I'm not missing anything. I don't claim that we are taken back to the earth after that. Why not just meet Him on the earth if that was the case, right? But it also isn't scriptural to say we will be taken to heaven at that point.

? Because...?

Why not just meet Him in heaven if that was the case? Instead, scripture teaches that He will burn up the earth and destroy all unbelievers at that point (2 Peter 3:10-12) and then the resurrection of the unbelieving dead and the judgment will occur. And Revelation 20:11 indicates that the judgment will take place neither in heaven nor on earth.

In that time (the day of the Lord) is the 1000 years as well as the return of Jesus. When the world is burned is pinpointed to the end of the 1000 years.

The judgment is not at the Rapture anyhow so why bring that up?

The rapture occurs at that time, but the answer is that it's talking about His second coming. And there won't be a third coming after that as you falsely believe. He will only be descending from heaven once in the future.

What time? One minute you are talking about after the thousand years, and the next about the rapture happening 'at that time'. Then you go on about some coming after that? Then you claim I said all that foolishness? Try to clean up your act and be clear precise and honest.

But, that is not what I believe. The air is obviously somewhere above the earth. It's likely a reference to the earth's atmosphere somewhere up there. After all, it does say we will be caught UP.

Ok, so you claim to believe in a rapture, but you seem to place it many many centuries after the tribulation. Seriously?

 

[Timtofly]

pre-fib belief leads to pre-trib theory leads to the yo-yo theory

It actually gets quite amusing in their desperation to keep it going.

The sad and harmful part is when they deliberately twist God's words to keep their idol erect.

And then they transition away from scripture(because there are no pre-trib passages) and begin the intellectual argument phase.

Which also backfires on their theory.

This is why the FATHER sent the Holy Spirit to us = so that we stay on course with "It is written".

There is no yo yo at all. Look at when the marriage takes place:

"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

Should that not say wife, if there had already been a wedding? Revelation 21 is God walking the bride down the isle to earth where Jesus is waiting. That is a thousand years after the Second Coming.

The Second Coming is at the 6th Seal. That is when the church is fully restored as sons of God. The church waits in Paradise during the Trumpets, Thunders, and the whole Millennium. That is why they are told to wait a little longer. Then they also wait until the Millennium is over.

The bride is also ready at the beginning of the Millennium. That is one reason that Amil don't accept the Millennium as being future. But what is for certain, the church, is stuck in Paradise. In Revelation 19, we see Jesus coming with those changed during the tribulation, not the church which was removed at the Second Coming in the 6th Seal. The Millennium is about the firstfruits of the final harvest known as Jacob's trouble, not the church.

 

[Keturah]

This is hard of hearing......now apply to hearing the revelations of the Spirit on the word of God........ The Spirit says this.......but we hear that.....is it by choice?

 

[amigo de christo]

This is hard of hearing......now apply to hearing the revelations of the Spirit on the word of God........ The Spirit says this.......but we hear that.....is it by choice?
View attachment 32891

The beauty of the SPIRIT is that it will never DENY the WORD o GOD . GOD is HIS SPIRIT , HE is HIS WORD and HIS WORD
became flesh . Thus if any is hearing from a spirit and its omitting the teachings of Christ and the apostels , YEAH
ITS NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT . Now leap for joy in the LORD my friend . The lambs loveth the LORD
His love for His words of TRUTH HE has planted upon our hearts . So lift those hands up and let the LORD be praised my friend .

 

[amigo de christo]

You cannot post a single scripture that speaks of a pre-trib rapture because none exist in the Holy Scriptures.

You should never speak as if you know when you have no authoritative scripture.

That makes you a false prophet = speaking what God never said was truth.

Do you really want to stand before the LORD with that sin on your tongue?

You need to be 1000% certain that when you speak of His Coming, that it only speaks of His words and not yours.

JESUS words: Matthew ch24

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’

At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.
They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

The Apostles words: Acts ch2
Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, lifted up his voice, and addressed the crowd: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and listen carefully to my words. These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It is only the third hour of the day!
No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out My Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18Even on My menservants and maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20The sun will be turned to darkness,
and the moon to blood,
before the coming of the great and glorious Day of the Lord.
21And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord
will be saved.’

Too many want the JESUS that promises them the easy life in this world . Give me my jesus but dont let me have to suffer
one bit for His name is todays motto .
The great tribulation hour is gonna take many by suprise . Many will sell out completely as well . Many already have .
We must be prepared to lose all , to see all loss as only gain for Christ .
They can beat us , put us in prison and even kill us , but they cannot take our JOY From us . FOR OUR JOY cometh not
of this world , ITS IN THE LORD . HE IS OUR HOPE and what a wonderful home awaits the lambs at the end of our faith .
This world has taken the hearts of many . But the LORD takes captive the hearts of the lambs .
What i say to one i say to all , Brace yourselves , cause persecutions WILL ONLY INCREASE BIG TIME in these last days .
This world aint gonna love us , but march on in the LORD we must . Faithful unto HE who has saved us and given us
great hope in HE alone .

 

[amigo de christo]

A few chinese pastors repented . They later told the tale of what they had done to their own churches .
They had promised them before it got bad that GOD was gonna take them from this world .
This chinese pastor had tears in his eyes as he remembered what he , himself had done to his own church .
What many pre trib pastors had done to their own churches in china .
Rough times were picking up and the threat of a hostile govt grew daily .
We taught our people to just trust in GOD that he would come for us all before the tribulation got too great .
With tears in his eyes he then said this , WE FAILED our churches , we failed our people .
When the hard times and persecutions came many fell away , felt betrayed ,
GET THESE CHURCHES READY NOW . GET THEM READY NOW . cause persecution is COMING
and through much tribulation we must enter into the kingdom of GOD .
GET the peoples ready now . preach the truth . stop preaching tribs and pretribs .
START PREACHING ALL OF JESUS REMINDERS about HOW we will have tribulations in this world .
PREACH HIS reminders , preach the apostels reminders . DO NOT Fail the peoples . GET back in the bibles NOW
while there is still time . Many will betray many . Its coming . WE must not fear it ,nor man .

 

[ewq1938]

I guess you missed the point. No one needs some drawn out spiel about what you think The Rapture is or represents yada yada yada

My post had 4 sentences. Yours here has 8. Again, you don't seem to know what certain words mean that you use. 4 sentences is not a "drawn out spiel". Not even double that much (yours) is a "drawn out spiel".

It is a matter of believe it or not.

If that is your actual opinion of what it means to be with Jesus forever, don't project. we go upp in the air to meet Him and be with Him forever. Not in some coordinate in space. So when He returns to the Father's house after that...we go with Him.

Scripture doesn't say we follow him back to heaven. After meeting him in the clouds, we follow him down to the Earth, to Armageddon.

When He opens heaven and comes on down to earth later, we come with Him.

That is a second second coming which is scripturally false. There is ONE second coming.

 

[Timtofly]

Couldn't resist this one. So the precise time given in the book covering the end time and that has a special blessing on those who read it (Revelation) are total coincidence?! The times that are the same in Dan 'reeealllly' mean thousands of years!? What a contortion.

You don't accept the Day of the Lord as 1,000 years?

That is why many get 2 Thessalonians 2 wrong as well.

"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come..."

The Second Coming brings Christ to earth in the 6th Seal. Then the final harvest begins.

The Day of the Lord comes, but there are a few things to take care of before it officially starts.

 

[Timtofly]

What I said is that the commencement of the marriage and the supper virtually blur into a single event. However, I believe the rejoicing that begins in heaven is the commencement of the marriage.

The practical outcome is not a celebration in heaven, but rather, an initiation of celebration on earth as the beginning of an eternal inheritance of the earth begins.

The supper obviously follows the marriage. The marriage is our immortalization. The supper is our inheritance of the earth, ie its beginning.

Nor did I say the supper lasts one second. I said, the marriage begins in heaven, but for all practical purposes is celebrated on earth, since we meet Christ in heaven for less than a second before he is revealed on earth.

You seem to have issues misrepresenting what I say. We are caught up to heaven to become immortal--this commences our eternal marriage to God. The rejoicing has, however, already begun, even before the marriage, by departed saints. Their joy is completed with the Rapture of the Church to become immortal.

Within the same instant Christians are glorified with Christ in heaven they appear on the earth with Christ. We only go to Christ for that one second because we must show that we receive our immortality *from him in heaven.*

So time is not the focus, but rather, it is what happens to us and where we get this from. We get immortality, and we get it from Christ in heaven. We do not obtain it for ourselves on earth. We must get it from Christ who is in heaven before his Kingdom comes to earth.

It is not an itinerary that matters when considering how we get to heaven, or how long it takes for us to get there, and how long we must remain there before coming back. It all takes place, according to Scripture, in the twinkling of an eye. We simply must go to heaven 1st as a priority to show that we return with Christ in bodies that are glorified as a free gift from Christ in heaven, because that's where Christ presently is.

We have the marriage supper on earth because that is where we begin our glorified existence. And that is where the Kingdom of Christ is to be realized. What began in heaven is actually celebrated on earth. You need to understand my position properly before trying to attack it.

You do realize that the marriage narrative is figurative? There is no literal marriage nor supper. At least not in this reality. Perhaps in the NHNE?

 

[Timtofly]

How ludicrous! The "great time of distress" is synonymous with the "distress of those days."

I've also heard it argued that "distress" in one account is not the same as "tribulation" in another account. There is in the Bible the use of *synonyms!* It amazes me as to how far people go in trying to prove an untenable position! T

Then you don't understand how an Israelite would read that passage. That is whom Jesus was addressing as if you don't see the whole OD already fulfilled. It was not given to the church. The church has had tribulation non stop. The pre-trib rapture would have been Acts 1 when Jesus ascended the first time.

The Second Coming is after the church's nonstop tribulation, but prior to Jacob's trouble. It is Jacob's trouble that is the GT, the final harvest, the Trumpets and Thunders.

"Those days" are over when the church is removed. The trouble is just starting for Jacob starting with Zechariah 14 and the whole ME rearranged.