PAUL WROTE DO NOT LISTEN TO THE PRETRIB RAPTURE TEACHERS

[Randy Kluth]

As long as we know what it is, what you call it is not the main thing. Your compressing different events (rapture, return to earth and marriage supper) into one momentary event is what we are looking at.

Right. It doesn't matter what you call it as long what you call it properly describes it. We have to be talking about the same thing!

I don't *compress* my "trifecta." The Rapture is described biblically as a "seizure" of our spirits to the clouds. Only those "still living" go up.

Those already with the Lord are already in the clouds. I have to assume this takes place quickly and at the same time Jesus is prepared to Return.

This is a single momentary event. Meeting him is for the purpose of transformation, which we are told is in a split second. So if Jesus is already prepared to come, and our transformation and gathering to him is in an instant, why should we not see them as a single event when he actually appears in the clouds like lightning?

Finally, I *never said* the Marriage Supper takes place in the sky, or is completed in the same second! It's you who say that it is in the sky.

My version is that it takes place on earth, and commences within the same second that Jesus appears in the clouds and is revealed on earth. It celebrates what had just happened, our gathering to the Lord and our uniting with Him forever.

It commences instantly, but lasts for as long as a "supper" lasts--I assume for the period it takes to appreciate our new inheritance of God's Kingdom on earth. We enjoy the spoils of our new inheritance.

No. It can mean the event is ready, has come.

You say the Marriage Supper takes place in the sky. I don't see any support for that in the text. The vacuum of space provides very little "foundation" for that belief! ;)

What the text says is that the time has come, and that the invitation is out--not that it has already taken place. They were preparing, with excitement, for that event.

It has to do with an inheritance of *land* because it takes place on the earth. That is the only place that logically supplies a base for the new Jerusalem experience, which may be fulfilled a thousand years later. New Jerusalem comes down *out of heaven,* logically meaning that it comes to earth. So our initial inheritance of the earth must take place on the earth, where the New Jerusalem will be located.

We shall "ever be with the Lord" has to do with our inheritance of the earth with God as the light of our city. It is the same promise God made to Israel, that He will dwell in their midst forever.

This may begin in heaven when we first join Him. But the inheritance, along with the celebration, begins on the earth, where our inheritance is. That celebration is the Marriage Supper, and logically takes place where our inheritance is--on earth.

It's like throwing a house-warming party for your friends when you buy a new home. You celebrate it in the home--not outside the home. In the same way, the Marriage Supper celebrates our inheritance of the earth on the earth--not in heaven.

 

[dad]

The whole thing about the 'rapture to heaven' theory, is that it is believed by most Christians, especially in the Western nations.
This majority; and with preachers like Dr David Jeremiah and John Hagee, busily promoting the rapture, gives people like @dad here, the support to denigrate and dismiss any opposition to that belief.
However, they fail to note that in Matthew 24:11 Jesus says that many will be deceived and Paul says in 2 Timothy 4:3-4 that people will refuse to listen to the truth of scripture and will follow false teachers.

Many are deceived. Your job here was to make a case so that people could see it was not you. Sorry you failed.

Therefore; it is the majority who are wrong and have accepted the doctrine of the easy way out of the forthcoming hard times ahead.

Playing the majority card won't work either. Of the few billion or whatever christians they say live in the world, you do realize the majority are not waiting for any deliverance at any moment?

Those who expect to be taken away from any disaster or time of testing, have simply not read or understood the many scriptures saying how the Lord will test His people and that we must endure until the end. It will winnow out the people who consider that God has let them down.

His people include those other sheep who come to believe after He takes His bride out of the world. The 'me, thou, and no other' attitude of the yo yo crowd is not good.

ONLY those people who have proved their faith by standing firm and trusting in the Lord, will be transported thru the atmosphere, as Philip was: Acts 8:39, to be with Jesus in Jerusalem for the Millennium. Revelation 5:10

The love of God in allowing the new tribulation believers to ALSO be priests and rule with us does not take anything away from His Bride!

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's possession, so that you may proclaim the virtues of the one who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light,

Why? Not because we have a high suffering score! But because of the blood of Jesus.

2 tim 2:
8 Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, a descendant of David according to my gospel, 9 in connection with which I suffer misfortune to the point of imprisonment as a criminal, but the word of God is not bound. 10 Because of this, I endure all things for the sake of the chosen, in order that they also may obtain salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 The saying is trustworthy:

For if we died with him, we will also live with him;
12 if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;
13 if we are unfaithful, he remains faithful—he cannot deny himself.


1 Cor 6: tells us we will judge angels.


Daniel 7:27
Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him."

1 Cor 6: 2 --Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?

"
This reign climaxes at the last judgment when the believer’s body is reunited with the soul and shares in the soul’s power and authority. Sin, death, the devil, and the world will be under our feet.

But there’s more. Crowned with the crown of righteousness (2 Tim. 4:8), the crown of life (Jas. 1:12; Rev. 2:10), and the crown of glory (1 Peter 5:4), we will access and enjoy the King’s power, possessions, and authority, including even ruling over the angels (1 Cor. 6:3). As Christ promised, the meek shall inherit the earth (Matt. 5:5), and part of that will involve specific responsibilities according to our faithfulness in this world (Luke 19:17).

“But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever” (Dan. 7:18)."

Reigning with Christ

Very few of us would like to be President. However, most of us, at least some of the time, would like to be involved with the President. We’d like to be able to share in his decision-making, to have some input and influence, to be in a position and possess the power to affect outcomes, and even...

www.placefortruth.org

It is very shortsighted to promote the works trip that only those killed of the tribulation saints will rule with Him because of their works.

 

[Timtofly]

Of course I do. A lot happens in that day.


If that is when He returns to the earth, it is not the second coming. The second time Jesus comes it is not to the earth! You are a conflationist.


The day of the Lord comes unexpectedly like a thief in the night. The Rapture time is not known. The time after the tribulation when He returns to earth IS known! That is anything but a thief in the night. That is a precise oft given countdown! In the like a thief in the night coming in the air we go UP. In the return to earth we go DOWN.

Zechariah 14 and Matthew 25:31 is the 6th Seal Second Coming. It is a thief in the night moment. All of man's works on earth will be burned up.

No one is prepared nor can they be when at the 6th Seal there is nothing left on earth and we are back in the stone age, with no technology at all.

That is when the church is glorified in the air and all on earth will see exactly what they missed. Then the church will be in Paradise for the whole Day of the Lord including the time of the Trumpets and Thunders.

The 6th Seal is also when Jesus as King sits on His throne in His temple in Jerusalem to judge those left on the earth, still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. That is what Matthew 25:31-46 declares. All the angels have left the firmament and are with Jesus gathering all of Israel to Jerusalem.

As Christians, we are not even supposed to be attached to stuff, nor rely on stuff. There will be no stuff after the 6th Seal. Those who want to tuff it without nothing during the Trumpets and Thunders are certainly not prepared to leave earth at any point. Enduring tribulation has been an ongoing phenomenon for the church since Pentecost. Not sure why the church thinks they need to be involved in Jacob's trouble, but they seem gung ho about it.

2 Peter 3 is the 6th Seal. Everything has to go to make the earth liveable during the Day of the Lord. That is not conflating Scripture. That is showing a systematic and methodological removal of souls from Adam's dead corruptible flesh between the 6th Seal and the 7th Trumpet which is the celebration Trumpet that all the work of Jesus as King has been accomplished.

Only at the 7th Trumpet will it even be determined if Satan gets 42 months of extended time past the declared end. If no 42 months, then there will be no Armageddon at all. Jesus will never leave Jerusalem and the Millennium will start with the 7th Trumpet celebration.

 

[dad]

Remove the blinders you have on.

2 Timothy 2:15-18 exactly addresses the MOST IMPORTANT issue of Christ's Coming which is the RESURRECTION.

That chapter mentions some dweeb who claimed the resurrection already happened.

2 Timothy 2:18
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Perhaps explain how that relates to the issues here? How does that relate to the gathering in the air to come before the wrath of God? Ot the marriage supper or return of Christ? Obviously it is a canard and strawman argument, 100 miles beyond left field with no application here. Has anyone claimed the resurrection came? No. Try to debate honestly and not spam verses.

Your lie says: "Christ comes down and raptures the Church while another Church is born-again in the GT and become "Tribulation Saints".

Why be hung up on the word church? Revelation stops using that word after chapter 4!! (until the end when it was done) So all those believers and witnesses and martyrs etc of that time would best be called something else. To misname them is a lame effort to deny the resurrection that happened for the church.

The Resurrection of the Saints only takes place at His Second Coming at The End and HE leaves no one behind - Matt ch24

You do not know what the end is! You (I would suggest by now, purposely) conflate events of the end into one split second yo yo ride! Making a cafeteria of the bible by gluing a word or phrase about one thing onto another verse about something else in a muddled attempt to promote the confused utterances of yoyoism.

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

Right, it will. Even today it has been preached a fair bit! By the time the church is gathered together one assumes even more! But by the time the verse you posted comes, it is the end of the tribulation, so by then it will have been preached in all the world. Why post this as if it somehow supports yo yo philosophy?

Christ only has One Bride, not two.

I agree.

He takes that Bride at the Rapture.
All believers are in the family of God. A family has a woman who was the bride, children, a dad, a husband maybe relatives etc etc.
If all believers are as you seem to suggest, supposed to be the bride, then why was the marriage over when Jesus opened heaven and came back to earth? So, I don't know. However we sure can say that we are the bride! Now whether the past and future believers that were not of the church age will be called the church or the bride also, I don't know. Eternity is a long time. Having believers before Jesus came does not mean the believers were inferior or weird. The same goes for the tribulation saints. But I am not sure you would want to call that three different brides? It seems to me bride is a special title for people of the church age who believed in Jesus. Now if the title is also meant to include all believers of all ages one day, well, I would not know one way or the other, or be concerned. It does look to me like the marriage of the Bride of Christ is in heaven and goes on during that tribulation period.

HE resurrects only One Body of Saints = His Saints at His Coming = Genesis, Gospel, 1 Cor ch15, 1 Thess & 2 Thess

? Why would He not also resurrect the new saints of the tribulation period when He comes? Have you some bible support for that notion? We can add the millennium saints to that list later also!

2 Timothy 2:15-18 directly exposes the lies of 'pre-trib rapture'

It does not even relate to it actually. How does some false believer thousands of years ago shooting of his beak about the resurrection being already finished relate to the tribulation or marriage supper, return of Christ to earth, or the rapture?? Do explain. To me that is about like holding up a Cheerio box and touting it as definitive proof the yo yo theory is true. There is not even a connection.

 

[dad]

Zechariah 14 and Matthew 25:31 is the 6th Seal Second Coming. It is a thief in the night moment.

Matthew 25:31
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Matthew 25:32
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

No. That is obviously not the Rapture. That is when He returns to take over. Clearly. That is after the tribulation. Undoubtedly. The times down to the day are well known for that time. You cannot wake up one tribulation morning that happens to be the 1260th day since the abomination was set up and say you do not know it is the last day for man's rule on earth! That is anything but a surprise. That is a timetable. A calendar given is detail in advance. It is not a thief in the night moment.

The Rapture is the thief in the night moment. No one knows when that comes.

All of man's works on earth will be burned up.

As far as the other verse you cited, the earth is anything but burned up after He returns to rule!

Zechariah 14:21
Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts

Not sure why you offer verses that demolish your own position. But thanks for that, makes my job easier.

It does not say every pot in Jerusalem will be charred black and ashes! It does not say people are all burned, they come to sacrifice!

We are told exactly when God, in that day of the Lord will totally burn the world with fire.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, ..

9 ...fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away
That is when! No other time. All fire that devours some wicked folks and etc is not something that destroys the earth until after the 1000 years.

Anyone claiming so is conflating events and times.

No one is prepared nor can they be when at the 6th Seal there is nothing left on earth and we are back in the stone age, with no technology at all.

That verse was...? Ha (lurkers, he made that up)

That is when the church is glorified in the air and all on earth will see exactly what they missed. Then the church will be in Paradise for the whole Day of the Lord including the time of the Trumpets and Thunders.

Sounds like a new fantasy movie from the Yo Yo brothers. 'After the Fire'

The reality is that we rule and reign on earth with Him, a beautiful restored to a great degree earth, where people live a thousand years or so like before the flood. That starts with the return of Jesus and us. It lasts 1000 years. The fire is after all that. Relax. Your stoned age cro magnon fantasy is pure fiction.

The 6th Seal is also when Jesus as King sits on His throne in His temple in Jerusalem to judge those left on the earth, still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. That is what Matthew 25:31-46 declares. All the angels have left the firmament and are with Jesus gathering all of Israel to Jerusalem.

As opposed to the judgment seat of Christ where rewards to believers are handed out at the marriage celebration of the Bride in heaven.

As Christians, we are not even supposed to be attached to stuff, nor rely on stuff. There will be no stuff after the 6th Seal.

You make the seal sound like a flashbang micro second event. As if after that opening of a seal we are all cavemen and blah blah.
No.

After that seal, yes AFTER we see men alive.


Revelation 6:15
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

All sorts of folks!

Still after this we see Jesus judging nations and ruling with us for 1000 years.

All this is not 'after the fire' the destroys the world.

Those who want to tuff it without nothing during the Trumpets and Thunders are certainly not prepared to leave earth at any point. Enduring tribulation has been an ongoing phenomenon for the church since Pentecost. Not sure why the church thinks they need to be involved in Jacob's trouble, but they seem gung ho about it.

What does that even mean? tuff it out with nothing? So who has 'something' at the time? The believers in that time will endure tribulation in that time of wrath. Not sure what you think some will have while others have nothing?

2 Peter 3 is the 6th Seal. Everything has to go to make the earth liveable during the Day of the Lord. That is not conflating Scripture. That is showing a systematic and methodological removal of souls from Adam's dead corruptible flesh between the 6th Seal and the 7th Trumpet which is the celebration Trumpet that all the work of Jesus as King has been accomplished.

2 Peter 3:7
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
I already showed the Scripture for when that is.


2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The Rapture starts the day of the Lord if I am not mistaken! In that period which includes the millennium the world will be burned (at the end of the 1000 years)
Peter mentions the new heaven after that.



2 Peter 3:13
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

So yes, when you compress all the time and events of that great time that day, into one afternoon you are not only conflating Scripture, you are hyper conflating!

Only at the 7th Trumpet will it even be determined if Satan gets 42 months of extended time past the declared end. If no 42 months, then there will be no Armageddon at all. Jesus will never leave Jerusalem and the Millennium will start with the 7th Trumpet celebration.

The 42 months is in the tribulation period. Your compressing and conflating has led to a dazed and confused conception of prophetic times and events.

I kid you not.

 

[Timtofly]

------

Sounds like you hold to the typical Dispensationalist scenario? I would agree with some of your beliefs, but certainly not all of them.

I agree that the Church has "non-stop" trouble in the current age. But I don't think this is prior to "Jacob's Trouble." I actually believe that the age of Christian persecution and the age of Jacob's Trouble are the same.

I agree that the Olivet Discourse was given to Israel, primarily. And for that reason I think the Great Tribulation is a reference to Israel's Diaspora in the current age, aka "the time of Jacob's Trouble."

Anyway, that's kind of where we agree and disagree.

No more dispensational than you are preterist. Jacob's trouble is not about dispensation. It is not stretched out either. Those days are getting shorter all the time, because they have not started yet. Jacob's trouble cannot go past a certain point of time declared by God to be over. The longer the church is on the earth, the shorter Jacob's trouble will last after the Second Coming.

The only way that time can be shortened is if it starts closer to that set deadline. Besides souls can only be saved and made alive prior to Jacob's trouble, not after it is over. Which is why the Second Coming is a thief in the night moment. It is not a set deadline nor point in time.

 

[Timtofly]

Yes, I tend to think the Marriage Supper is figurative. I agree with you. I believe it represents the commencement of the inheritance of the earth by the Church. It is the beginning of our rule in the Kingdom of God. Since this will be a happy time, it begins like a feast.

Only after the Millennium.

 

[dad]

Right. It doesn't matter what you call it as long what you call it properly describes it. We have to be talking about the same thing!

The Rapture and return to earth are not the same thing. So it depends on what you are talking about, whether we are talking about the same thing or not.

I don't *compress* my "trifecta." The Rapture is described biblically as a "seizure" of our spirits to the clouds. Only those "still living" go up.

Say what? The dead in Christ also go up and even go up first. That is another point that the yoyoists need to explain. Why would the people who will reign with Jesus be going up when He is coming down?

Those already with the Lord are already in the clouds

No! The spirits of just men made perfect are still spirits! They are with Jesus where He is, but they still come back at the Rapture with Him to have their dead earthly bodies raised up into the air! They then have their new eternal bodies. Like Jesus. Remember He was not a spirit or ghost but also physical. Then, Jesus, at the Rapture, also calls the believers who are still alive in their physical bodies and they go up and also receive their incorruptible bodies! That is why we comfort one another with these words, it is fantastic. So then all the believers in Christ, dead and alive are now after the gathering in the air, together forever. It is then we are with Jesus wherever He is. We are told where He is just before the return to earth so that is no mystery! He is in heaven. That is also where we hear about the wedding supper! So it is safe to say that after we all are raptured we go to heaven!

. I have to assume this takes place quickly and at the same time Jesus is prepared to Return.

Quickly? The long awaited celebration of the marriage of God Almighty needs to be a flash bang wedding in less than a New York minute? No. You assume wrong and for no reason!

This is a single momentary event. Meeting him is for the purpose of transformation, which we are told is in a split second. So if Jesus is already prepared to come, and our transformation and gathering to him is in an instant, why should we not see them as a single event when he actually appears in the clouds like lightning?

Our resurrection is instant. That was before the wrath even began, before the tribulation. You seem to be lost in space here after the 1000 years are over thinking some marriage supper or something is going on. Very confused.

Finally, I *never said* the Marriage Supper takes place in the sky, or is completed in the same second! It's you who say that it is in the sky.

No. I said heaven. Beyond all heavens we see or know, beyond where the stars are. That is the scene in the bible where the marriage supper takes place and from which Jesus and us return to earth.

My version is that it takes place on earth, and commences within the same second that Jesus appears in the clouds and is revealed on earth. It celebrates what had just happened, our gathering to the Lord and our uniting with Him forever.

Since He is coming to take vengeance on the wicked and kill them and take over the world by force and fire and power, it hardly seems like a wedding place. You made that up. The bible talks about the wedding in a heaven scene! Maybe learn the difference between heaven and hell? Then work on up and down.

It commences instantly, but lasts for as long as a "supper" lasts--I assume for the period it takes to appreciate our new inheritance of God's Kingdom on earth. We enjoy the spoils of our new inheritance.

Man's supper? Or a wedding feast and ceremony of God? We are not told how long it lasts.

What the text says is that the time has come, and that the invitation is out--not that it has already taken place. They were preparing, with excitement, for that event.

It does not say it was preparation time. It said the time had come. The bride was not preparing but...ready! wow

It has to do with an inheritance of *land* because it takes place on the earth. That is the only place that logically supplies a base for the new Jerusalem experience, which may be fulfilled a thousand years later. New Jerusalem comes down *out of heaven,* logically meaning that it comes to earth. So our initial inheritance of the earth must take place on the earth, where the New Jerusalem will be located.

No. When Jesus takes over He rules the earth. We rule with Him. New Jerusalem is not coming down to earth till after the 1000 years are over and done. The Bride was married for over a thousand years by then.
Our home is New Jerusalem! Even when we rule on earth, that is our home. We do not spend all our time on earth just because we have some duties here like helping judge the world etc.
It looks like New Jerusalem is so much our home and identified with us that when it finally comes down to the new earth, it is compared to as a bride!

Revelation 21:2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

We shall "ever be with the Lord" has to do with our inheritance of the earth with God as the light of our city. It is the same promise God made to Israel, that He will dwell in their midst forever.

OK. We will be forever with Him. He is the light of New Jerusalem.

This may begin in heaven when we first join Him. But the inheritance, along with the celebration, begins on the earth, where our inheritance is. That celebration is the Marriage Supper, and logically takes place where our inheritance is--on earth.

Oh? I look forward personally, more to our heavenly home than our time working or visiting earth! I look forward more to an incorruptible new body, than being rich and a ruler! But the world is part of our inheritance and even that somewhat restored world in the millennium will be beautiful.

It's like throwing a house-warming party for your friends when you buy a new home. You celebrate it in the home--not outside the home.

You do know the home of the Bride is New Jerusalem, the place Jesus went to prepare for us?

In the same way, the Marriage Supper celebrates our inheritance of the earth on the earth--not in heaven.

We are not even on earth at the time. There will be lots to celebrate. New bodies, reuniting with loved ones, meeting ancestors and bible heros and Jesus and etc etc. Knowing Jesus will soon go down and take over earth will also be a thing to celebrate. Having no fear at all anymore and love permeate everywhere and being able to fly and etc etc will all be wonderful and amazing things to rejoice about. Let's not be so earthcentric that we forget heaven and New Jerusalem etc.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Rapture and return to earth are not the same thing.

Right, the Rapture and "return to earth" are 2 different expressions. I believe they happen at the same time. Christ is in heaven, poised to return. And we are "caught up" to meet him in the clouds as he begins his descent. My view of it.

Say what? The dead in Christ also go up and even go up first.

The dead are disintegrated into the elements, and are reused over and over with time. They do not "go up." The spirits of the departed saints are already with Christ in heaven.

Why would the people who will reign with Jesus be going up when He is coming down?

The delegation goes out to meet the dignitary who is coming to town. We go up to join Christ in his descent. It is not a difficult trip for the Lord. He says the word and we're there. He says the word and we get new bodies. Why is this "yo yo thing" a problem for you?

Quickly? The long awaited celebration of the marriage of God Almighty needs to be a flash bang wedding in less than a New York minute? No. You assume wrong and for no reason!

For the umpteenth time, the Marriage Supper takes place on earth *after* the initial union of Christ and his Church in heaven! The invitation is given in heaven. The union takes place in heaven. But the celebration begins an instant later, when Christ is revealed on earth.

There is rejoicing in heaven *before* the union takes place, in anticipation of that event. And there is rejoicing on earth *after* the union takes place, when the inheritance is actually given out. Since the inheritance takes place on earth, and actually *is* the earth, that's where the celebration of union takes place. That is called, in my view, the "Marriage Supper."

And the celebration doesn't last just a second. It only begins in the same second that Christ is revealed. The actual Marriage Supper, which I'm calling a "celebration of our inheritance on earth," takes place over an extended period of time, just as all celebrations of victory do.

Our resurrection is instant. That was before the wrath even began, before the tribulation.

No the resurrection takes place, as I understand it, at the same time that God's final wrath is poured out on the Antichrist. God's wrath is always in evidence, before, during, and at the end of Antichrist's reign. In fact, God's wrath exists, even if with patience, throughout all of history. But on the final day of wrath, that's when Christ comes, and that's when, therefore, the resurrection takes place.

Rev 20.4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

No. I said heaven. Beyond all heavens we see or know, beyond where the stars are. That is the scene in the bible where the marriage supper takes place and from which Jesus and us return to earth.

Again, only an invitation takes place in heaven. The Marriage Supper is, in my view, a celebration of the union that takes place *in the clouds* (not way off in the distant universe). The celebration takes place *after the union in heaven.* And it takes place on earth, where God's promise of an inheritance of the earth was always intended to be fulfilled.

Isa 62.4 No longer will they call you Deserted,
or name your land Desolate.
But you will be called Hephzibah,
and your land Beulah;
for the Lord will take delight in you,
and your land will be married.

Since He is coming to take vengeance on the wicked and kill them and take over the world by force and fire and power, it hardly seems like a wedding place.

It may sound strange. But a dinner for the birds is prepared, to feed on the corpses of the wicked, at the same time God prepares a marriage feast for the saints. We celebrate victory in war, and we celebrate our union to be realized *on the earth.*

Man's supper? Or a wedding feast and ceremony of God? We are not told how long it lasts.

By definition, a supper lasts longer than a second! ;)

It looks like New Jerusalem is so much our home and identified with us that when it finally comes down to the new earth, it is compared to as a bride!

Yep.

Oh? I look forward personally, more to our heavenly home than our time working or visiting earth!

I don't claim to understand how the Church will reign during the Millennium. Personally, I think it will either be a special city segregated from the rest of the world, which will still be mortal. Or, my preferred position is that we will be more like angels, coming and going, until the end of the Millennium, when the New Jerusalem will descend to the earth.

We do not see much of angels today. I don't think the millennial population will see the glorified saints either during the Millennium. Our rule will largely consist of ruling against Satan's attempt to be here on earth during that period of time. We'll be like a judicial body. And we will prevent, by our decrees, any ruler on earth from attacking the Christian nations and Christians in any aggressive way.

You do know the home of the Bride is New Jerusalem, the place Jesus went to prepare for us?

Jesus went to the Cross, to prepare a place for us. I somewhat enjoyed your musings about our future glory! ;)

 

[Keraz]

I kid you not.

No. you don't fool anyone who seriously studies the Bible Prophesies.
A rapture removal of people to heaven, is not found anywhere in the Bible. People who believe it are seriously deceived and have failed to realize that there must come testing and Judgment of those alive during the end times, before Jesus Returns.
ONLY true faithful Christians, who resisted Satan and refused his mark, will be with Jesus, in His Millennium reign.

It is impossible for a human to go to heaven, the Spiritual dwelling place of God. A few exceptions do not make a rule.
The transformation to immortality of those worthy, whose names are found in the Book of Life, takes place after the Millennium.

 

[Timtofly]

Matthew 25:31
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Matthew 25:32
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

No. That is obviously not the Rapture. That is when He returns to take over. Clearly. That is after the tribulation. Undoubtedly. The times down to the day are well known for that time. You cannot wake up one tribulation morning that happens to be the 1260th day since the abomination was set up and say you do not know it is the last day for man's rule on earth! That is anything but a surprise. That is a timetable. A calendar given is detail in advance. It is not a thief in the night moment.

The Rapture is the thief in the night moment. No one knows when that comes.



As far as the other verse you cited, the earth is anything but burned up after He returns to rule!

Zechariah 14:21
Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts

Not sure why you offer verses that demolish your own position. But thanks for that, makes my job easier.

It does not say every pot in Jerusalem will be charred black and ashes! It does not say people are all burned, they come to sacrifice!

We are told exactly when God, in that day of the Lord will totally burn the world with fire.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, ..

9 ...fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away
That is when! No other time. All fire that devours some wicked folks and etc is not something that destroys the earth until after the 1000 years.

Anyone claiming so is conflating events and times.


That verse was...? Ha (lurkers, he made that up)




Sounds like a new fantasy movie from the Yo Yo brothers. 'After the Fire'

The reality is that we rule and reign on earth with Him, a beautiful restored to a great degree earth, where people live a thousand years or so like before the flood. That starts with the return of Jesus and us. It lasts 1000 years. The fire is after all that. Relax. Your stoned age cro magnon fantasy is pure fiction.



As opposed to the judgment seat of Christ where rewards to believers are handed out at the marriage celebration of the Bride in heaven.



You make the seal sound like a flashbang micro second event. As if after that opening of a seal we are all cavemen and blah blah.
No.

After that seal, yes AFTER we see men alive.


Revelation 6:15
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

All sorts of folks!

Still after this we see Jesus judging nations and ruling with us for 1000 years.

All this is not 'after the fire' the destroys the world.



What does that even mean? tuff it out with nothing? So who has 'something' at the time? The believers in that time will endure tribulation in that time of wrath. Not sure what you think some will have while others have nothing?




2 Peter 3:7
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
I already showed the Scripture for when that is.


2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The Rapture starts the day of the Lord if I am not mistaken! In that period which includes the millennium the world will be burned (at the end of the 1000 years)
Peter mentions the new heaven after that.



2 Peter 3:13
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

So yes, when you compress all the time and events of that great time that day, into one afternoon you are not only conflating Scripture, you are hyper conflating!

The 42 months is in the tribulation period. Your compressing and conflating has led to a dazed and confused conception of prophetic times and events.

I kid you not.

Matthew 25:31 takes place during the Trumpets and Thunders. Jesus is gathering Jacob out of the nations. This is not after Armageddon. After Armageddon all on earth are dead. Kind of hard to gather Jacob with no one left on the earth.

You are the one following a teaching made up in some human's imagination.

Jesus comes to earth at the 6th Seal, the rapture and the Second Coming. The church remains in Paradise. Jesus and the angels are on the earth per Matthew 13, Matthew 25, and Revelation 6. Paul never states Jesus remains in Heaven. So, Paul has the timing, but Matthew and John have the details.

 

[dad]

Right, the Rapture and "return to earth" are 2 different expressions. I believe they happen at the same time. Christ is in heaven, poised to return. And we are "caught up" to meet him in the clouds as he begins his descent. My view of it.

OK. We will have to disagree

The dead are disintegrated into the elements, and are reused over and over with time. They do not "go up." The spirits of the departed saints are already with Christ in heaven.

Now that is simply not true. No matter what happens to our bodies God raises them up. He is able to do that. We will be like Him. He was raised with a physical and spiritual body that could eat, walk through walls etc.

Job 19:26
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

The delegation goes out to meet the dignitary who is coming to town.

Actually is is more that the Bridegroom comes for the Bride to take her home!

We go up to join Christ in his descent. It is not a difficult trip for the Lord. He says the word and we're there. He says the word and we get new bodies.

No verse says any such thing. He comes for us and raises us into the air to meet Him. Stuff happens after this. It is not a quick magic elevator trip without reason or rhyme. When He comes down from heaven to come to the earth in vengeance we are already with Him. We also come from heaven. We do not all halt the horses and have a party on the way to earth. Raising millions a few feet up (or whatever distance it may be to the air) to have them immediately fall down again in a new body is a made up idea. What, God is not able to resurrect us on earth? We had to yo yo up to the air and back first? Then you belittle the marriage supper event and try to cram it into the the imaginary micro second yo yo ride?

Why is this "yo yo thing" a problem for you?

As just posted it demeans the time we have in His Father's house after the Rapture, insults the great marriage feast of the Lamb in heaven, insults the bride by having a fly by night less than one second wedding ceremony, insults the Bridegroom by making it look like a weird little yo yo event for His return and wedding, places the whole scene in a death zone of Armageddon where the smell is so bad men stop their noses and the birds are feasting on the dead bodies! Some wedding party.

For the umpteenth time, the Marriage Supper takes place on earth *after* the initial union of Christ and his Church in heaven! The invitation is given in heaven. The union takes place in heaven. But the celebration begins an instant later, when Christ is revealed on earth.

The bible talks about it in heaven. No getting around it. The bride is ready, not getting ready. The even comes. In the same chapter, still in the heaven scene, Jesus leaves heaven for earth! That is the clear sequence and locale.

There is rejoicing in heaven *before* the union takes place, in anticipation of that event

Of course! It was long awaited and means all the church believers are now resurrected and in heaven. The time has come! What, you thought the Lord abandoned the new bride in heaven and torqued off down to earth to get married??
No He is coming with fore in His eyes and a flaming sword, to take vengeance and take over.
The bride comes with Him from heaven to the earth at this time. They ain't here for a second honeymoon!

. And there is rejoicing on earth *after* the union takes place, when the inheritance is actually given out. Since the inheritance takes place on earth, and actually *is* the earth, that's where the celebration of union takes place. That is called, in my view, the "Marriage Supper."

Chapter and verse?

And the celebration doesn't last just a second. It only begins in the same second that Christ is revealed. The actual Marriage Supper, which I'm calling a "celebration of our inheritance on earth," takes place over an extended period of time, just as all celebrations of victory do.

Totally made up.

No the resurrection takes place, as I understand it, at the same time that God's final wrath is poured out on the Antichrist.

No, not the resurrection of the Bride, the church!

God's wrath is always in evidence, before, during, and at the end of Antichrist's reign.

Never the period of wrath the prophesies speak about that is of limited duration and unlike anything else period.

Rev 20.4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

So we can expect those tribulation saints to be there with us with Jesus for that 1000 years. Excellent.

Again, only an invitation takes place in heaven.

To people who are already there! The Bride is also there. Jesus is there. The party is in heaven.

The Marriage Supper is, in my view, a celebration of the union that takes place *in the clouds* (not way off in the distant universe).

It is more than some celebration of one meeting. It is when we meet and are together forever. It says air not clouds. From there we all go to heaven as was already pointed out. When the wedding supper is announced, and the Bride is ready. So we are not in clouds then. The location is near the throne of God and in heaven! That means He is already married when He returns to the earth with His bride, the saints.

Isa 62.4 No longer will they call you Deserted,
or name your land Desolate.
But you will be called Hephzibah,
and your land Beulah;
for the Lord will take delight in you,
and your land will be married.

That is about Jerusalem, the Jews! The scene there is on earth and when Jesus returns.

One translation puts it like this
"

Verse 4​

Verse Isaiah 62:4. Thy land Beulah — בעולה beulah, married. In the prophets, a desolate land is represented under the notion of a widow; an inhabited land, under that of a married woman, who has both a husband and children."

Isaiah 62 - Clarke's Commentary - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Isaiah 62, Clarke's Commentary, Adam Clarke's commentary is a valuable resource for Christians seeking a deeper understanding of the Scriptures. His thorough examination of the original texts and focus on historical and cultural context provide valuable insights for readers.

www.studylight.org

All Israel will be saved by then, and God will restore them to the land.

It may sound strange. But a dinner for the birds is prepared, to feed on the corpses of the wicked, at the same time God prepares a marriage feast for the saints. We celebrate victory in war, and we celebrate our union to be realized *on the earth.*

One on earth, the other in heaven. Don't conflate events and places and times.

By definition, a supper lasts longer than a second! ;)
Yep.

We can't define it it is His event and in heaven. As stated we all don't come back to the earth till after the tribulation so there is a lot of time for a ceremony.

I don't claim to understand how the Church will reign during the Millennium. Personally, I think it will either be a special city segregated from the rest of the world, which will still be mortal. Or, my preferred position is that we will be more like angels, coming and going, until the end of the Millennium, when the New Jerusalem will descend to the earth.

Bingo! Our home is New Jerusalem.

We do not see much of angels today.

In the tribulation on earth they see angels and demons.

I don't think the millennial population will see the glorified saints either during the Millennium. Our rule will largely consist of ruling against Satan's attempt to be here on earth during that period of time. We'll be like a judicial body. And we will prevent, by our decrees, any ruler on earth from attacking the Christian nations and Christians in any aggressive way.

Oh I see no reason for such weird mystery. We are not so sneaky and snooty that we will not be loving the people and helping them as well as rulers.

Jesus went to the Cross, to prepare a place for us. I somewhat enjoyed your musings about our future glory! ;)

Thanks

 

[dad]

No. you don't fool anyone who seriously studies the Bible Prophesies.

You do?

A rapture removal of people to heaven, is not found anywhere in the Bible

It is found nowhere else!

. People who believe it are seriously deceived and have failed to realize that there must come testing and Judgment of those alive during the end times, before Jesus Returns.

Says you, a yoyoist!

ONLY true faithful Christians, who resisted Satan and refused his mark, will be with Jesus, in His Millennium reign.

Horse doo doo
It is clear we will rule with Him

It is impossible for a human to go to heaven,

Tell that to John!
The marriage of the church is also in heaven you see when we have our incorruptible bodies like His, we sure can go to heaven! In fact that is our forever home.

the Spiritual dwelling place of God. A few exceptions do not make a rule.

His bride also!

The transformation to immortality of those worthy, whose names are found in the Book of Life, takes place after the Millennium.

We are worthy by accepting Jesus. He freely gave. We can freely receive. Hows them apples?

 

[dad]

Matthew 25:31 takes place during the Trumpets and Thunders.

Verify that claim. Seems to me the vials and trumpets happened back in the tribulation?

Jesus is gathering Jacob out of the nations. This is not after Armageddon.

When He gathers all nations you thought that really meant He gathered 'Jacob'? Is it fun rewriting the bible? And He gathers nations to judge after He returns by the way! Obviously. Not before the tribulation is over.

After Armageddon all on earth are dead.

Absurd and I already covered that six ways from Sunday. Sorry if you thought He ruled dead zombies!

Kind of hard to gather Jacob with no one left on the earth.

True. Who thought that happened? Sounds like some invented part of someone's little yo yo theory.

You are the one following a teaching made up in some human's imagination.

Pot, meet kettle. Face, find mirror.

Jesus comes to earth at the 6th Seal, the rapture and the Second Coming.

You made that up. You insert the Rapture event willy nilly into the return of us and Jesus event. Why do you feel compelled to try and spread your confusion?

The church remains in Paradise.

Except He returns with the saints. Gong!

Jesus and the angels are on the earth per Matthew 13

What verse? I must have missed it:)

, Matthew 25, and Revelation 6.

In your dreams maybe. In the actual text I didn't see what you envision. Is that why you posted no verses, but spammed whole chapters as if they supported your yoyoism?

Paul never states Jesus remains in Heaven.

Who said Paul said Jesus said all that? It seems you said they said it. Clarify. How, praytell would either we or Jesus 'remain in heaven' if we return to earth with Him when He takes over and sets foot on the mount of Olives etc??

So, Paul has the timing, but Matthew and John have the details.

The timing of what, where? Details of what when and where? Perhaps you mean you glean details randomly from those books to cram in your conflated yoyo ball of beeswax?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So why not tell us what you do believe rather than childish insult attempts? So we go up in the air...then...?

I'm not making childish insults. It's childish to not know enough to ask questions if you don't know what the other person believes instead of making assumptions.

What I believe as an amillennialist is that we meet Him in the air and then He proceeds to destroy His enemies with fire. I base that on 2 Peter 3:10-12 which talks about what will happen when He returns. And I believe Revelation 20:9 is talking about that same event. What happens after that is described in Revelation 20:10-15 and Revelation 20:11 makes it clear that the judgment does not take place in heaven or on earth. So, where it occurs exactly, I don't know. Maybe on the new earth after the earth as we know it has been made new.

Since it says this right before, it is talking about His return to earth


2 Thessalonians 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance ..

Where does this say that He steps foot on the earth at that point? If you read 2 Peter 3:10-12 you should see that He will be sending fire down upon the earth at that point.

? Because...?


In that time (the day of the Lord) is the 1000 years as well as the return of Jesus. When the world is burned is pinpointed to the end of the 1000 years.

The judgment is not at the Rapture anyhow so why bring that up?

That is YOUR understanding of the timing of events. I'm talking about MY understanding of the timing of those events. Is that okay with you?

What time? One minute you are talking about after the thousand years, and the next about the rapture happening 'at that time'. Then you go on about some coming after that? Then you claim I said all that foolishness? Try to clean up your act and be clear precise and honest.

I have been. You need to learn how to read and follow what people are saying. The only thing you seem to be able to understand is your own view, but you need to make an effort to learn what others believe if you want to debate people about these things. Otherwise, you just constantly misrepresent what others believe because of your ignorance.

Ok, so you claim to believe in a rapture, but you seem to place it many many centuries after the tribulation. Seriously?

No, I don't. Matthew 24:29-31 indicates that the rapture occurs IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation. I never said otherwise. You need serious work on your reading comprehension skills.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Now that is simply not true. No matter what happens to our bodies God raises them up.

To be "raised up" is a metaphorical statement indicating a person is brought back to life. Being brought back to life physically does not require that the old physical body be reassembled.

When He comes down from heaven to come to the earth in vengeance we are already with Him.

The departed saints are already with him. And those who are caught up, alive, to meet him will be with him as he returns. Often the saints are depicted as returning with him because they have already departed and are with him. They are not still in their graves.

1 Thes 4.14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

We also come from heaven. We do not all halt the horses and have a party on the way to earth.

I never said such a thing! You still seem to have problems negotiating the path up and down? We are instantly caught up to Christ in the clouds, as he is prepared to descend from the clouds.

He is at the same instant revealed from the heavens as lightning, from east to west. This is the moment at which we begin to celebrate our possession of the earth from the Antichrist, who at the very same moment is cast into the Lake of Fire.

The celebration is not finished in that second. It only starts at that time. The celebration continues as long as is fitting to celebrate our inheritance of the earth and our dispossession of the earth from Satan.

Raising millions a few feet up (or whatever distance it may be to the air) to have them immediately fall down again in a new body is a made up idea.

Still having problems negotiating distances and heights? This is why I asked you to give up trying to *mechanically* explain it. It is a supernatural event.

What, God is not able to resurrect us on earth? We had to yo yo up to the air and back first? Then you belittle the marriage supper event and try to cram it into the the imaginary micro second yo yo ride?

I've told you numerous times now, so you have no excuse for constantly claiming I believe the Supper is finished in a second.

Chapter and verse?

You already know.

Never the period of wrath the prophesies speak about that is of limited duration and unlike anything else period.

Chapter and verse?

It says air not clouds.

It says both.

That is about Jerusalem, the Jews! The scene there is on earth and when Jesus returns.

Isa 62 indicates the same Hope for the Jews as people from other nations hope for with respect to their own lands. It is all going to take place *on earth.*

I'm bored with this....

 

[dad]

I'm not making childish insults. It's childish to not know enough to ask questions if you don't know what the other person believes instead of making assumptions.

Then make it clear especially when you think your opinions are different than the average yoyoist here!

What I believe as an amillennialist is that we meet Him in the air and then He proceeds to destroy His enemies with fire. I base that on 2 Peter 3:10-12 which talks about what will happen when He returns.

OK, and..?

And I believe Revelation 20:9 is talking about that same event. What happens after that is described in Revelation 20:10-15 and Revelation 20:11 makes it clear that the judgment does not take place in heaven or on earth.

Revelation 20:11
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

That is after the 1000 years are completed. We get a new earth, so why worry about where the judging event takes place. If it is between the old and new earth, so what? It matters to this debate...how?

Where does this say that He steps foot on the earth at that point? If you read 2 Peter 3:10-12 you should see that He will be sending fire down upon the earth at that point.

You are all over the map. the earth is totally burned only after the millennium. How does this tie in with the Rapture or return of Christ or the marriage?

That is YOUR understanding of the timing of events. I'm talking about MY understanding of the timing of those events. Is that okay with you?

If you could be clear maybe.

I have been. You need to learn how to read and follow what people are saying.

You are talking about after the thousand years, so to be clear that relates to anything discussed here...how?

The only thing you seem to be able to understand is your own view, but you need to make an effort to learn what others believe if you want to debate people about these things. Otherwise, you just constantly misrepresent what others believe because of your ignorance.

The others need to be able to articulate their view. In a nutshell what are you trying to say?

No, I don't. Matthew 24:29-31 indicates that the rapture occurs IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation. I never said otherwise.

OK so why are you way out past left field talking about after the 1000 years? You want to talk tribulation? Maybe you would like us to read your mind?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why be hung up on the word church? Revelation stops using that word after chapter 4!! (until the end when it was done) So all those believers and witnesses and martyrs etc of that time would best be called something else. To misname them is a lame effort to deny the resurrection that happened for the church.

This is an incredibly high level of ignorance on your part. Since when do people in the church need to be called "the church" in order to be in the church? What nonsense. It refers to "the saints" multiple times after chapter 4. Are the saints not in the church right now?

Acts 9:32 And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda.

Was Peter not talking about people who are in the church here?

Acts 26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.

Were the saints that Paul put in prison back when he was named Saul not in the church?

Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Are "the saints" referenced here not in the church? Of course they are. I think I've made my point.

Then there's verses like these:

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Who else but those in the church "keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ"? Who else but those in the church are "saints" who "keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus"?

The idea that the church is not referenced after chapter 4 is ludicrous. A total farce. Laughable at best.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then make it clear especially when you think your opinions are different than the average yoyoist here!

It's very difficult to take you seriously when you act so childish and call people who have a different view than yours "yoyoists". Grow up already. You should change your name from dad to child.

OK, and..?

I was explaining to you what I believe and why. Is that not what you want or would you rather keep making a fool of yourself by misrepresenting what I believe?

Revelation 20:11
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

That is after the 1000 years are completed. We get a new earth, so why worry about where the judging event takes place. If it is between the old and new earth, so what? It matters to this debate...how?

You have extremely poor reading comprehension skills. You seem to have no ability to understand anyone's view but your own. How can you expect to be taken seriously when that is the case? It matters because we were talking about where we go after we meet Him in the air. Remember? Hello? Wake up. So, I was explaining why I don't believe we go to heaven from there or to the earth from there. I believe the judgment takes place right after that and Rev 20:11 indicates that the judgment does not take place in heaven or on earth. Understand? I don't even care if you agree with me on this, just make some kind of effort to actually understand what I believe. Am I asking too much of you?

You are all over the map. the earth is totally burned only after the millennium. How does this tie in with the Rapture or return of Christ or the marriage?


If you could be clear maybe.


You are talking about after the thousand years, so to be clear that relates to anything discussed here...how?


The others need to be able to articulate their view. In a nutshell what are you trying to say?



OK so why are you way out past left field talking about after the 1000 years? You want to talk tribulation? Maybe you would like us to read your mind?

This is hopeless. You are not making any effort to understand what I'm saying, so I'm not going to waste any more time on you. You know what you believe and you clearly have no interest in understanding what others believe. How can you refute what others believe when you don't even make any effort to know and understand what others believe? What a joke.

 

[Timtofly]

What does that even mean? tuff it out with nothing? So who has 'something' at the time? The believers in that time will endure tribulation in that time of wrath. Not sure what you think some will have while others have nothing?

You are mixing up 2 Peter 3 with Revelation 20:9. Why would you do that? That is an Amil point of view.

"And they (humans) went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them (humans).

There is nothing in this verse describing a second coming nor the heavens and earth being consumed by fire. Just because the word "fire" and "heaven" is used, does not put the end of the Millennium as the Second Coming. Peter is talking about the Second Coming as happening as a thief in the night. The 6th Seal is a thief in the night moment, and every thing happens as mentioned for the Second Coming.

Heaven rolls back as a scroll, the angels come to earth. Everything on earth is burned up. Unless you are stocking supplies deep in the earth, and living there, then nothing will survive, and then you may be stuck down there, because all the mountains are going to move out of their places as well as the continents.

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

How many times do you think every thing is destroyed and burnt up in the future? How many thief in the night moments? When I say everything, that is literally everything, but humans. In Revelation 20:9 only humans are consumed by fire, nothing else.