Galatians 5

[RichardBurger]

Ok. Richard Burger, I need to give you an apology as re-reading your OP I did make one wrong deduction.

Please accept my apology thus far.

For a fresh start.


So not everyone is condemned because not everyone is a non-believer. The believer does not wifully act in the flesh and repents when they fall short.

Thank you for your thoughts on this.

BMS it became clear to me, many years ago, that people on forums never really discuss scriptures. Why? Because when one gives a scripture another denies it is true by just giving another scripture that they think makes the other scripture a lie.

Just for info, since it was brought up. I said that the 12 (11) had about 40 years to convince the nation of Israel to accept Jesus as their Messiah and King. Do you want to know wkere I get this? It is in the story Jesus told of the barren fig tree. See if you can agree.

The Barren Fig Tree:
Luke 13:6-9
6 He also spoke this parable: "A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none.
7 Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, 'Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?'
8 But he answered and said to him, 'Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it.
9 And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.'" NKJV

Jesus spent 3 years in His ministry to the nation of Israel (the fig tree) and they did not accept Him as their king. As I see it, after His crucifixion His apostles had about 40 years (to dig around it). But it never happened so God concluded that all had sinned and therefore He could offer salvation by grace to all. Up until this time the only way a Gentile could be saved was through a saved Jew. --- Now everyone is on a level playing field.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Richard Burger,
The parable of the barren fig tree refers to 3 years and another year. No mention or indication of 40 years.
Whilst I would agree that the three years of the fig tree may correspond with the 3 years of Jesus ministry, I wouldn’t agree that it corresponds with the ‘nation’ of Israel based on everything else Jesus said such as in Matthew 28.

As I see it, after His crucifixion His apostles had about 40 years (to dig around it).

Ok so having asked you what scripture supports 40 years you still haven’t presented any any, and indeed you say it is "as you see it." Such an assumption is not as I see it, nor can I see any scripture for such an assumption.

 

[RichardBurger]

Richard Burger,
The parable of the barren fig tree refers to 3 years and another year. No mention or indication of 40 years.
Whilst I would agree that the three years of the fig tree may correspond with the 3 years of Jesus ministry, I wouldn’t agree that it corresponds with the ‘nation’ of Israel based on everything else Jesus said such as in Matthew 28.
Ok so having asked you what scripture supports 40 years you still haven’t presented any any, and indeed you say it is "as you see it." Such an assumption is not as I see it, nor can I see any scripture for such an assumption.

It was about 40 years after Jesus' crucifixion that God destroyed the Temple at the hands of the Romans and in doing it He rooted up the Fig tree (Israel). That brought an end to the nation of Israel (the fig tree) and the Jews were scattered all over the world. It makes sense to me.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Richard Burger,

It was about 40 years after Jesus' crucifixion that God destroyed the Temple at the hands of the Romans and in doing it He rooted up the Fig tree (Israel).

naah. Jesus said He would destroy the temple and rebuild it in 3 days. Christ is the Messaih of the Jews as well as our Messiah, as gentiles we are thus grafted in.

 

[romans7]

"Sin is the transgression of the law" is only so in the A.V. Other versions say "sin is lawlessness" (being without guideline, being without moral compass). Christ abolished the law by fulfilling (keeping) it, as only he could. He certainly could not have said "I have come to abolish the law" because the Jews would have killed him. The law was temporary until Christ arrived to deal with it and enable us to live by the Spirit.

 

[RichardBurger]

Richard Burger,
naah. Jesus said He would destroy the temple and rebuild it in 3 days. Christ is the Messaih of the Jews as well as our Messiah, as gentiles we are thus grafted in.

Jesus was talking about His body that He would ressurect in 3 days. Why do you connect the fig tree story with that?

The story Jesus told was a prophesy as far as I can see it. If it doesn't mean what I have said then what do you think the story means. Or do you think He told it to fill up the pages. It had a meaning. The fig tree has always used in scripture as a symbol for the nation of Israel.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Richard Burger,
Yes it was His body but it was 3 days. Your proposal is based on 40 years. The great commission Christ instructed was to all nations in all the world.

Many will say that verses 19-21 condemns everyone that commits those sins. But if that is true then it contradicts verses 1-18 which clearly show that the believer is not under the law of works.

I agree but it doesnt contradict.

So then walking in the Spirit is not trying to keep the law by not sinning.

Correct. I agree but walking in the Spirit is focussing on Christ which is love, joy, peace, if one is focussing on Christ, love joy and peace, one is not trying to follow the law avoiding sin or committing sin itself.
yes?

 

[bytheway]

Liberty first, then Freedom. Take these misguided occupy people, they have the freedom to protest but were never Liberated. As a result they just tear things up and disgust decent people. I realize Liberty and Freedom are basicly the same thing. I Peter 1: 9 states" Recieving the end of your Faith, even the salvation of your souls. Until the corrupted human soul is cleaned out and renovated, Lierated we will still fight about settled issues like law and Grace.

 

[RichardBurger]

Jesus was talking about His body that He would ressurect in 3 days. Why do you connect the fig tree story with that?

I don't. You made that connection. The story of the fig tree is about Israel, not Jesus.

 

[JLB]

RichardBurger,
I think your problem is you are referring to Paul's gospel and Paul's followers. You seem to have excluded from what you call Paul's gospel that it doesnt have followers of Paul or Paul's gospel, but followers of Christ and the gospel of Christ.

Around the time of Nicene we had the heresy of Maricionism which didnt acknowledge what Christ said about the OT law and prophets because God didnt live up to Marcion's expectations of God or love where God punished disobedience. Now we tend to see this liberal rejection of Paul's letters because some of the specifics in them dont meet liberal expectations.

This confusion over the law is actually legalism, and what xBlux says is valid. There are two covenants, the OT law is still there, it hasnt been abolished, it was an example to the world that the Israelites/Jews/God's people were chosen to show and demonstrate to the world. Jesus Christ is the Messiah so He is the Jews Messiah as well, not just the Gentile's Messiah.

There are two covenants, the OT law is still there...

What two covenants are you referring to?

JLB

 

[brightmorningstar]

There are more than two covenants in fact, God made more the one covenant in the OT, but the OT covenant is fulfilled in Christ. There are now two types, those in Adam and those in Christ.
The issue in the thread is that we live by the spirit. When there is the law people strive not to sin, by the sprit the law against sin is no longer relevant as we aren't focused on avoiding sin but focussed on following Christ which has no sin.

 

[RichardBurger]

Good post, and valid points. But may I ask, how do you explain Christ teaching that the law was not abolished? All of the accounts where Christ reiterates the same law when saying 'it is written'? If sin 'is a transgression of the law' and that law is done away with, then by what do we use to discern the bad seeds? By their works, I know, but if we have no law to base our perception on, then what guides our morality?

What Jesus said to the nation of Israel was to the nation of Israel ONLY. He, by His own words, did not come preaching to the Gentiles. No where in the first 4 books of the N.T. or in the first 8 chapters of Acts did Jesus or the 12 reciend the Law of Moses. --- But Jesus sent Paul with the message of grace that when we have faith in Jesus's work on the cross we are not under the Law of Moses.

The law was given to the nation of Israel and the Jews were told to keep it as part of the covenant that He made with them.

RichardBurger,

Sorry but judging the rest of the NT by the first 4 or 5 books is not Christianity my friend.
Why would that be crucial for you? Anyway we see He said take eat this is my body, whilst braking the bread for his disciples. That kind of implies it doesnt it?

So you think it is proper to deny some scriptures in favor of others of your choice. That is the very reason why todays theology mixes law with grace. It is because they can't tell the difference in what God says for the age in which He says it.

The scriptures PLAINLY say that Jesus gave Paul a message """"""THAT WAS ""HIDDEN"" IN GOD""""" and revealed to him (Paul) but you and others just can't see the word hidden because you can't see past the law.

If a person does not follow the message God gave for the age in which He gave it they will never enter heaven.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Richard Burger,

He, by His own words, did not come preaching to the Gentiles.

Well that is basically correct according to His words except that He qualified that with ‘first’to the Jews and of course His great commission to the disciples was to make disciples of all nations of all He had taught.

But Jesus sent Paul with the message of grace that when we have faith in Jesus's work on the cross we are not under the Law of Moses.

Of course the whilst we are not judged by the law and under it, we nonetheless have it our hearts as far as the fulfilment of it in Christ.

So you think it is proper to deny some scriptures in favor of others of your choice.

I am saying the opposite, one needs to understand scripture in context and holistically. But I am not really in disagreement with you, rather making careful clarifications. Hopefully

 

[Episkopos]

What Jesus said to the nation of Israel was to the nation of Israel ONLY. He, by His own words, did not come preaching to the Gentiles. No where in the first 4 books of the N.T. or in the first 8 chapters of Acts did Jesus or the 12 reciend the Law of Moses. --- But Jesus sent Paul with the message of grace that when we have faith in Jesus's work on the cross we are not under the Law of Moses.

The law was given to the nation of Israel and the Jews were told to keep it as part of the covenant that He made with them.



So you think it is proper to deny some scriptures in favor of others of your choice. That is the very reason why todays theology mixes law with grace. It is because they can't tell the difference in what God says for the age in which He says it.

The scriptures PLAINLY say that Jesus gave Paul a message """"""THAT WAS ""HIDDEN"" IN GOD""""" and revealed to him (Paul) but you and others just can't see the word hidden because you can't see past the law.

If a person does not follow the message God gave for the age in which He gave it they will never enter heaven.

The hidden message is still hiden to most who claim to be Christians. That is the power to walk as Jesus walked. As He IS so ARE WE in this world. This is completely foreign to most since they have not yet seen anything.

 

[RichardBurger]

The hidden message is still hiden to most who claim to be Christians. That is the power to walk as Jesus walked. As He IS so ARE WE in this world. This is completely foreign to most since they have not yet seen anything.

Religious man has always wanted to be like God. They think they can accomplish that by what they do. They fail to put their faith in the work of Jesus on the cross and instead put their faith in their ability to be perfect before God by keeping rules and regulations.

Genesis 3:4-5
4 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.
5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
NKJV

 

[Episkopos]

Religious man has always wanted to be like God. They think they can accomplish that by what they do. They fail to put their faith in the work of Jesus on the cross and instead put their faith in their ability to be perfect before God by keeping rules and regulations.

Genesis 3:4-5
4 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.
5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
NKJV

It is not a salvation by lofty human claims....but by demonstration of the Spirit and His power.

1Co_2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

 

[RichardBurger]

It is not a salvation by lofty human claims....but by demonstration of the Spirit and His power.

1Co_2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

WOW! Tell me how you are demonstrating the Spirit and His power. - Perhaps you are trying to tell me that you no longer sin in the flesh because you think you are walking in the Spirit and His power. When did the Spirit's power become your power?. When did you become perfect in the flesh?

Philippians 3:1-3
3 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. For me to write the same things to you is not tedious, but for you it is safe.
2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation!
3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,
NKJV

Are you sure you are not trying to demonstrat your own power to not sin?

Perhaps when Paul said "1Co_2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power" you think he was telling you that you had this power too. - Paul was talking about himself, not you.

 

[Episkopos]

WOW! Tell me how you are demonstrating the Spirit and His power. - Perhaps you are trying to tell me that you no longer sin in the flesh because you think you are walking in the Spirit and His power. When did the Spirit's power become your power?. When did you become perfect in the flesh?

Philippians 3:1-3
3 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. For me to write the same things to you is not tedious, but for you it is safe.
2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation!
3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,
NKJV

Are you sure you are not trying to demonstrat your own power to not sin?

Perhaps when Paul said "1Co_2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power" you think he was telling you that you had this power too. - Paul was talking about himself, not you.

We have confidence in God's overcoming provision according to the Spirit...not vain promises of a self-applied salvation through the fleshly understanding of the bible.

 

[RichardBurger]

We have confidence in God's overcoming provision according to the Spirit...not vain promises of a self-applied salvation through the fleshly understanding of the bible.

Another vauge statement that means nothing without a context.

I have belief, faith, trust and CONFIDENCE in the salvation God has provided in the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. My confidence is in God, not my flesh. My confidence is in the fact that God says I am righteous in His eyes because I have placed my faith in His work on the cross and not in my works to claim a righteousness of my own.

I laugh when a person claims to have a much superior understanding of the Bible but can't provide scriptural context for what they write and in the fact that they refuse to accept the very words they say they believe. James 1:1 comes to mind.

 

[Episkopos]

Another vauge statement that means nothing without a context.

I have belief, faith, trust and CONFIDENCE in the salvation God has provided in the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. My confidence is in God, not my flesh. My confidence is in the fact that God says I am righteous in His eyes because I have placed my faith in His work on the cross and not in my works to claim a righteousness of my own.

I laugh when a person claims to have a much superior understanding of the Bible but can't provide scriptural context for what they write and in the fact that they refuse to accept the very words they say they believe. James 1:1 comes to mind.

Christianity is not based on men placing their faith where they will. That is still being saved by works. God has to get a hold of you and translate you into His kingdom. The faith must come from above. Anybody can trust in anything for whatever purpose they wish. But this is not the message of the bible. When we truly have faith a pipeline is opened with God. Then we see supernatural things. To walk by grace means we no longer walk as other men do...in their own limitations and sins. Grace is a freely given gift of a walk in an eternal place with Christ. Jesus Christ doesn't sin and neither will we when we abide in Him. Very simple!