A question about the rapture

[Jay Ross]

You are wrong, I am correct. PERIOD

Said the Pot to the pan?? Or is that the other way around?? Does the pan claim to be blacker than the pot?

It is harder to tell these days which one is telling the truth based on their particular truth in comparison to my truth.

 

[No Pre-TB]

You are wrong, I am correct. PERIOD

There is nothing that says, I’m not walking like Christ than this. Your testimony, your fruit….

Good news, you can change. It doesn’t have to be this way.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Your argument is weak. It ignores context and doesn't allow scripture to interpret scripture. Your approach instead is to make it say whatever you need it to say to fit your doctrine. The word apostasia has nothing to do with departing the earth, but rather relates to rebellion and departing from the faith.

@Spiritual Israelite @ewq1938 @jeffweeder @Davy
I find it very disturbing when some are going this route. We all have differences in eschatology. Even when we agree on some parts, we may disagree on others. But this word should be seen by all the same way. It has not been tainted in almost 2 thousand years and yet some are trying to make it into something else. It is dangerous. Why? Because distorting the word of God and teaching others is a false hope and dangerous. One may say, "but they truly believe it". Yes, they do. That makes it that more dangerous.

1. For almost 2 thousand years the word has meant a religious departure in Christian and Jewish circles.
2. The word apostasy in other religions has always meant a defection of their religious truth
3. Apostasy is only found 1 other place. in Acts 21:21where it means a religious departure
4. In the LXX Septuagint, it is used 4 times and every single time it means religious departure. Joshua 22:22, 2 Chronicles 29:19, 1 Macabee's 2:15 and Jeremiah 2:19
5. If we are to take the apostasy as a "physical departure", the text would read: For that day (the day we are gathered together to Christ) will not come till we are gathered to Christ first (physical departure), and the man of sin revealed. Does that make sense? No, it does not.
6. Paul makes it abundantly clear. If apostasy was a physical departure, why would he use it in a negative way? He never uses it in relation to the parousia or the blessed hope. Instead, he links it with the man of sin which: is idol worship, who exalts himself above God or any god, which does false miracles and wonders etc to lead people away from Christ with apostasy!
7. Examples of Paul's or others usage of apostasy as a religious departure: 1 John 2:19, Luke 8:11-13, 1 Timothy 4:1, Hebrews 3:12-14

There could be and has been so much written over the centuries on the apostasy. The fact remains, the apostasy has been happening since Christ time and the great apostasy is to come to it's fulfillment before the man of sin is revealed. Is not this the reason he constantly warned the Church? Is not this the reason we should be prepared so that we are not deceived or that we don't deceive ourselves?

Dr. T. Ice, a Pre-TBber says, "If apostasia refers to a departure from the faith before the tribulation, then how is that a comfort?" The comfort Paul gave the Thessalonian's was they did not miss the gathering together to Christ. The opening sentence that comforted them. That day will not come unless ......and that comforted them that they did not miss anything. They were taught wrong by another epistle or letter not written by Paul. A simple reading of the text without any pre-conceived notions and/or any bias towards any eschatological view will lead the reader through the spirit to the same conclusion; apostasy is a religious departure from God and his truth. Some may still disagree. On this forum, it seems like it's every single post.

I stand with what God shows me, what scripture tells me and what has been the tradition of the church in regard to this word per 2 Thessalonians 2:15 for almost 2 thousand years.

 

[Davy]

It amuses me when people can not interpret the bible correctly but want to try and teach others who are called un to Prophecy specifically for 38 years.

2 Thess. 2:1 Now we beseech you(Ask URGENTLY, what is he ASKING? THINK), brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

{{{ So, we ASK URGENTY, via the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, so what are Paul asking the Thessalonians in an urgent tone about? See verse 2, about FEARING that they are in God's Wrath, the DOTL or day of Christ, so Paul is pointing out why they SHOULD NOT FEAR that they are in the DOTL, and his point is made VIA the Gathering together unto Jesus in verse. He says that CAN NOT HAPPEN, until two other thongs happen first. }}}

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

{{{ As I was saying, Paul is asking them URGENTLY not to FEAR that they are in God's Wrath, he says do not allow other people to fool you, neither by WORD or via "supposed Spiritual Prophecy", or even by letter which they wrote saying we told them this (nor by letter as if this stuff was from us) That you are in God's Wrath. }}}

3 Let no man deceive you by any means(Allow no man to fool you in ANY WAY): for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first (departure of....THE CHURCH of course), and that man of sin be revealed(The Anti-Christ comes forth at the exact same time as the DOTL, but he reneges on his Agreement/Covenant at the 1290, which s 30 days before he Conquers Israel), the son of perdition;

I just SMH at people who can not understand what is obvious. Just because you was raised to think APOSTACY doesn't mean that is whay it is. There is NO FAITH being spoken about in the chapter, but there is a GATHERING UNTO Christ mentioned in first 1, and thus of course its the Rapture.

Now intellectually, let me prove you are in error.

So, Paul nor the Thessalonians knew when Jesus was going to return correct? Of course not. So, if your take on the chapter is right how could Paul tell them NOT TO FEAR that they were in God's Wrath? That could happen in the NEXT WEEK fir all they knew, but Paul is telling them do not fear, because they would be DEPARTING before the DOTL and the Anti-Christ shows up.

All YOU are doing is MOCKING God's written Word by your FALSE ADDING to those 2 Thessalonians 2 Scriptures!

Paul was very specific that the SUBJECT he was covering was the day of Christ's future coming and His gathering of His Church, ON THE DAY OF THE LORD, which is what the phrase, "day of Christ" is in the Greek.

The DAY OF THE LORD per Apostles Paul and Peter means the LAST DAY of this present world. THAT... is when Paul says there that Jesus comes to gather His Church, and NOT BEFORE THAT.

But you LIE against those Scriptures and instead say that the 'falling away' by Paul coincides with the Rapture!!! That is totally IDIOTIC to say that false idea, which you ADDED to that Scripture!

 

[ewq1938]

1. For almost 2 thousand years the word has meant a religious departure in Christian and Jewish circles.
2. The word apostasy in other religions has always meant a defection of their religious truth
3. Apostasy is only found 1 other place. in Acts 21:21where it means a religious departure

No scholar or expert in Greek thinks otherwise. It's only the untrained who seek to redefine the word in their own image and theological position. This is one of many ways to spot a false teacher and false teaching. They always need to change the meaning of a word to change the meaning of a verse/passage.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are wrong, I am correct. PERIOD

Great argument. Well thought out. Very convincing.

 

[covenantee]

You are wrong, I am correct. PERIOD

"Ice T." himself admits:

"J. S. Mabie is said to have presented the view that “the departure” refers to the rapture as early as 1859 during a prophecy conference in Los Angeles.[12] He later wrote his view in an article published in November 1895 in a periodical called Morning Star."

The “Departure” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3
Thomas Ice, Pre-Trib Research Center

Apostasy as rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 was unseen, unsaid, and unknown in true Christian orthodoxy prior to the 19th century. Ice confirms Mabie as being the first to present it.

It is nothing more than another modernist dispensational figment, fantasy, and fallacy.

Thoroughly debunked here.

 

[David in NJ]

Still tripping over the Word?

Having a hard time trusting in the words of Christ?

STOP listening to false prophets who say 'pre-trib' rapture!

Believe JESUS

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’
30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

There is nothing that says, I’m not walking like Christ than this. Your testimony, your fruit….

Good news, you can change. It doesn’t have to be this way.

You teaching people wrong is your fruit.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

"Ice T." himself admits:

"J. S. Mabie is said to have presented the view that “the departure” refers to the rapture as early as 1859 during a prophecy conference in Los Angeles.[12] He later wrote his view in an article published in November 1895 in a periodical called Morning Star."

The “Departure” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3
Thomas Ice, Pre-Trib Research Center

Apostasy as rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 was unseen, unsaid, and unknown in true Christian orthodoxy prior to the 19th century. Ice confirms Mabie as being the first to present it.

It is nothing more than another modernist dispensational figment, fantasy, and fallacy.

Thoroughly debunked here.

2 Thess. 2 is the Departure of the Church, siting a Departure of the Faith when faith is never spoken of n the passage is just rather nonsensical tbh. You and you other brethren will have to answer for all of your wrong teachings.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

All YOU are doing is MOCKING God's written Word by your FALSE ADDING to those 2 Thessalonians 2 Scriptures!

You are mocking God's word, you teach falsehoods.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Great argument. Well thought out. Very convincing.

I have already destroyed you, no use going further.

 

[No Pre-TB]

You teaching people wrong is your fruit.

I’m not here to teach. Bible study fellowship in Church is for that. Soul winning is for that. Talking to my neighbors is for that. I’m here to discuss things that I’m passionate about.

You may think I’m wrong. Others thought Paul, all 12 disciples and Christ were wrong too. The difference is we can be polite. We can bridle our tongues. If I make a mistake and my flesh gets the best of me, call me out on it. I’d rather hear it from any of you than a blasphemer that denies Christ. At least I’d know you did it out of love to protect me that I learn and change then one who does it to glorify himself because he witnessed a Christian fall.

 

[covenantee]

2 Thess. 2 is the Departure of the Church, siting a Departure of the Faith when faith is never spoken of n the passage is just rather nonsensical tbh. You and you other brethren will have to answer for all of your wrong teachings.

Keep on guzzling that "Ice T."

 

[Zao is life]

Still tripping over the Word?

Having a hard time trusting in the words of Christ?

STOP listening to false prophets who say 'pre-trib' rapture!

Believe JESUS

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’
30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Yes. We;re told the same thing in different ways in scripture, and it's never contradicting itself.

Revelation 11
7 And when the two witnesses complete their testimony, the beast coming up out of the abyss will make war against them and will overcome them and kill them.
11 And after three days and a half, a spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood on their feet. And great fear fell on those seeing them.
12 And they heard a great voice from Heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they went up to Heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.

1 Thessalonians 4
15 For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The resurrection is not going to happen before the martyrs have been killed, no matter who "the two witnesses" may be, and the resurrection isn't going to happen before the coming of the Lord, and being changed and caught up together with those who have just been resurrected (the "rapture") isn't going to happen until the resurrection of the dead.

The words related to tribulation, affliction, persecution and trouble (the trouble of the saints) are not even talking about God's judgment/wrath. It's not even the same thing in the New Testament.

"Pre-trib rapture" is the same as saying the rapture occurred before the tribulation of the saints that followed the stoning of Stephen, and then (maybe another?) pre-trib rapture occurred before the persecution under Nero, and then ..

It's pointless, though, using scripture to prove the error of this false pre-trib doctrine, because those who have heaped up teachers for themselves teaching them what their itching ears want to hear, will never hear. The very scriptures that are not speaking about God's judgment/wrath coming upon the unbelieving world, but instead about the tribulation and the great tribulation of the saints at the hand of the authorities of this world, will continue to be twisted to mean "the great tribulation" of the unbelieving world when God's wrath comes upon it in judgment.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have already destroyed you, no use going further.

LOL. You have destroyed nothing but your reputation, if you even had one to begin with. Your arguments couldn't be any weaker if you tried.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

2 Thess. 2 is the Departure of the Church, siting a Departure of the Faith when faith is never spoken of n the passage is just rather nonsensical tbh. You and you other brethren will have to answer for all of your wrong teachings.

What Paul did talk about was wickedness being restrained at that time, but no longer being restrained in the future.

2 Thess 2:7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.

Lawlessness or unrestrained wickedness, which would result in increased wickedness, goes hand in hand with a mass departure from the faith. That is what Jesus indicated would happen as well. So, Paul wasn't teaching anything different than Jesus had already taught or that he himself had also taught elsewhere, such as in 1 Timothy 4.

Matthew 24:10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Paul referred to this same mass turning away from the faith and increase in wickedness in 2 Thess 2. If he was talking about the departure of the church in 2 Thess 2:3 then that would mean he was saying the rapture had to take place first before the rapture took place, which obviously makes no sense. He was clearly talking about something that had to occur first before the departure of the church/rapture took place.

 

[ewq1938]

2 Thess. 2 is the Departure of the Church

It is a moral departure better understood as an Apostasy. The AC will deceive much of the church into thinking he is God, which is how they become apostates. Part of this directly involves changing the meaning of apostasia from Apostasy to a physical departure which it does not mean.

 

[Davy]

You are mocking God's word, you teach falsehoods.

You follow false prophets, because Jesus made it very plain when His coming to gather His saints is, per the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, which is immediately AFTER... the tribulation.

But YOU instead follow men's doctrine mocking what Jesus showed when, by YOUR FALSE adding to the 2 Thess.2 Scripture by vainly trying to push the false pre-tribulation rapture theory, when that idea is NOT WRITTEN THERE AT ALL!

Thus you LIE against The Word of God, and you will be held accountable for it.

 

[Johann]

For almost 2 thousand years the word has meant a religious departure in Christian and Jewish circles

come first (ean mē elthēi hē apostasia prōton). Negative condition of the third class, undetermined with prospect of determination and the aorist subjunctive. Apostasia is the late form of apostasis and is our word apostasy. Plutarch uses it of political revolt and it occurs in 1 Maccabees 2:15 about Antiochus Epiphanes who was enforcing the apostasy from Judaism to Hellenism. In Jos_22:22 it occurs for rebellion against the Lord. It seems clear that the word here means a religious revolt and the use of the definite article (hē) seems to mean that Paul had spoken to the Thessalonians about it.

The only other New Testament use of the word is in Act_21:21 where it means apostasy from Moses. It is not clear whether Paul means revolt of the Jews from God, of Gentiles from God, of Christians from God, or of the apostasy that includes all classes within and without the body of Christians. But it is to be first (prōton) before Christ comes again. Note this adverb when only two events are compared (cf. Act_1:1).
RWS

falling away = apostasy. Greek. apostasia. Only here and Act_21:21.

Would seem you are correct brother.
J.