A question about the rapture

[Timtofly]

Where did I say anything about them coming to the earth? I didn't. Are you able to comprehend anything you read? Do you realize you misunderstand almost everything you read which results in you misrepresenting almost everything that people say to you? What is the reason for that?


Of course they are not literal! Why would anyone be literally riding on a white horse coming down from heaven? Do you think there are literal white horses in heaven? Do you also think that Jesus will be slaying people with a literal sword coming out of His mouth?


Hidden meanings? There are no hidden meanings there in Revelation 19. There are other scriptures which speak about Jesus destroying His enemies when He returns (Matt 24:35-39, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-9, 2 Peter 3:10-12), so there is nothing hidden about it. It's just described in a symbolic way.


Where does it say they come to the earth? You're making things up.


You clearly have no understanding of how symbolism works. Do you not understand that symbols don't have to resemble what they symbolize? For example, Satan is symbolized as a dragon with seven heads and ten horns. Does he look like a dragon with seven heads and ten horns in reality? Of course not. So, why do you insist that things that are described symbolically have to look just like what they are symbolizing in reality?

Then you don't view Revelation as symbolism at all? Just filler words to take up space?

There is not a Lamb, not a book, no thrones, no seals, no trumpets, no angels, no souls, no people, no horses, no kings, no kingdoms? All that is, is a bunch of words to take up space, because God, Judgment, and Second Coming would only take up one line of text?

Either that or the real thing would be too boring, so John spiced it up a bit?

I am not insisting anything. I accept that John wrote what he saw. Are you insisting John literally did not see anything?

Did you ever stop to think that you may be taking Peter too seriously, and John not serious enough? Perhaps the earth does not burn up at all if there is no literal fire?

Perhaps one second everything is there, and the next second there is literally nothing? Then suddenly there is a brand new creation? You blinked, and a thousand plus years happened while you were not paying attention?

John states he sees a battle on earth at Armageddon. Do you think there is not a battle at all? All of humanity left after Satan's 42 months are just gathered to this battlefield? They just all fall down dead at the correct moment? Because there is no one else around, except those in heaven looking down on the earth? You seem to claim there is no Second Coming at all then. After these humans arrive at Armageddon, they just disappear like the rest of creation, and they don't feel a thing, until tossed into the LOF?

John calls it a battle symbolically, but literally nothing happens at all? Obviously it cannot be a Second Coming because there is no coming nor going anywhere. You claim all remain in heaven, and everything on earth instantly disappears to be replaced instantly with a brand new creation, with literally nothing on earth, because we are given symbolic pictures that literally have no meaning at all. It is a wait and see moment, because we won't know anything until that moment happens.

 

[Timtofly]

There are different accounts of the Damascus road encounter.
It was a bright light Saul encountered.

The living Jesus had long since ascended prior.

This light:

"And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light."

Matthew 17:1-2

You don't think Jesus can visit the earth whenever He wants? Jesus visited with Abraham, was that after meeting Paul on the road to Damascus? How would you know?

Jesus said once, "Before Abraham was, I am". Jesus could shine like the sun, even before He was crucified. Jesus knew He always existed and could visit earth whenever. Can you explain which visit came first? I don't think you can, just like those who heard Jesus say that Abraham saw all the experiences Jesus had in the first century. Jesus revealed to Abraham, what He revealed to Paul. It is any one's guess who Jesus visited first, Paul or Abraham. Paul was blinded when he saw Jesus. But it was seeing Jesus that caused his blindness.

 

[ButterflyJones]

This light:

"And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light."

Matthew 17:1-2

You don't think Jesus can visit the earth whenever He wants? Jesus visited with Abraham, was that after meeting Paul on the road to Damascus? How would you know?

Jesus said once, "Before Abraham was, I am". Jesus could shine like the sun, even before He was crucified. Jesus knew He always existed and could visit earth whenever. Can you explain which visit came first? I don't think you can, just like those who heard Jesus say that Abraham saw all the experiences Jesus had in the first century. Jesus revealed to Abraham, what He revealed to Paul. It is any one's guess who Jesus visited first, Paul or Abraham. Paul was blinded when he saw Jesus. But it was seeing Jesus that caused his blindness.

Let me ask you this.

From the cross Jesus said, "It is accomplished."
And then he died. One version of the Bible says, he gave up the ghost.

Did Jesus accomplish his mission in bringing the new covenants testimony before he sealed it with his blood on the cross?

 

[ButterflyJones]

A generation is not 40 years. How many people do you know wait until 40 to get married and then have offspring? There is a new generation evey 15 to 20 years. Life expectancy in the first century was 35 years. A generation is still 70 years, because that is what Scripture states. Sometimes up to 80 years.

You do know that the 40 years in the wilderness was punishment, a year for every day the spies were in the promised land. It is not the definition of a generation. Numbers 14:32-35

"But as for you, your carcases, they shall fall in this wilderness. And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness. After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise. I the Lord have said, I will surely do it unto all this evil congregation, that are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die."

I am sure some were glad they did not take 100 days to spy out the land.

Summarizer
In the Bible, a generation refers to all people born and living in the same time period, regarded collectively.1 The standard round number for a generation is 40 years, but it can also refer to a longer age or a group of people spanning a longer period of time.4 The average generation from Abraham to David was approximately 64 years, while the average generation for the other two groups was 38 years.3 The Hebrews seem to have reckoned time by the generation, and in the time of Abraham, a generation was an hundred years. In Deuteronomy 1:35 and 2:14, a generation is a period of thirty-eight years.0 The popular 4,000 year theological timespan, which ends with the birth of Jesus, differs from the 4,000 timespan later proposed for the Masoretic text alone, which ends with the Temple rededication in 164 BCE.

Generation Meaning - Bible Definition and References

Discover the meaning of Generation in the Bible. Study the definition of Generation with multiple Bible Dictionaries and Encyclopedias and find scripture references in the Old and New Testaments.

www.biblestudytools.com

 

[Timtofly]

Let me ask you this.

From the cross Jesus said, "It is accomplished."
And then he died. One version of the Bible says, he gave up the ghost.

Did Jesus accomplish his mission in bringing the new covenants testimony before he sealed it with his blood on the cross?

Certainly, and even before creation itself. It was already accomplished prior to the formation of heaven and earth.

Abel benefited, Enoch benefited, and even Noah benefited from that accomplished work in 30AD.

 

[Timtofly]

Summarizer
In the Bible, a generation refers to all people born and living in the same time period, regarded collectively.1 The standard round number for a generation is 40 years, but it can also refer to a longer age or a group of people spanning a longer period of time.4 The average generation from Abraham to David was approximately 64 years, while the average generation for the other two groups was 38 years.3 The Hebrews seem to have reckoned time by the generation, and in the time of Abraham, a generation was an hundred years. In Deuteronomy 1:35 and 2:14, a generation is a period of thirty-eight years.0 The popular 4,000 year theological timespan, which ends with the birth of Jesus, differs from the 4,000 timespan later proposed for the Masoretic text alone, which ends with the Temple rededication in 164 BCE.

Generation Meaning - Bible Definition and References

Discover the meaning of Generation in the Bible. Study the definition of Generation with multiple Bible Dictionaries and Encyclopedias and find scripture references in the Old and New Testaments.

www.biblestudytools.com

The Bible is not the place to find the popular 4,000 year theological timespan. Yet you seem to endorse Hebrew theology. A year is still a year even if it has to be adjusted every 4 years. The lunar calendar always had to be adjusted with the solar year. That was even part of the 7 year and 49 year cycles. Yet you claim a round number of 40.

I would say it was more like 1400 years between Jericho destroyed and the week Jesus died on the Cross.

From rough estimates it would be about 2600 years between when Adam sinned and the walls of Jericho were flattened. Would it have been that different if Jericho was defeated 40 years earlier?

Would Jacob have had to go into Egypt had Ishmael never been born? How do you explain time changes from God's original plan to include man's disobedience or not fully trusting God? Then you want to use the round number of 40 to figure out an exact point with x amount of generations?

"And Isaac was forty years old when he took Rebekah to wife, the daughter of Bethuel the Syrian of Padanaram, the sister to Laban the Syrian."

Issac was 40 years when Rebekah was found to be his wife, but that was about as perfect as one can get. Even Moses was given 3, 40 year spans due to circumstances. Was that literal, or just contrived to make a symbolic point? I think the number 40 is important to the Hebrews as it is found throughout the OT. I don't think a generation is 40 years though. In general a generation can last as long as 70 or 80 years. A new generation can happen evey 15 to 20 years.

 

[No Pre-TB]

There are different accounts of the Damascus road encounter.
It was a bright light Saul encountered.

The living Jesus had long since ascended prior.

Yes, Paul saw a bright light and he heard Jesus voice and conversed with Him.

7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

 

[Davy]

So I said, "and the first (of three) times that the tribulation is called "great" tribulation is ambiguous" only because everyone interprets the great tribulation that will be shorted for the elect's sake (Mat.24:21-22) in his own way.

It's not ambiguous to me. IMO If it was referring to the great tribulation experienced by the Jews in 70 A.D then it wouldn't be linked to the question.. "what shall be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the Age?" and to the return of Christ immediately after the tribulation being spoken of (Mat.24:29-31).

The first part of that question was, "When shall these things (the destruction of the temple) be?", and there is no hint in Acts or any of the epistles that the apostles knew when the destruction of the temple was going to happen, so IMO, and IOW, Jesus did not answer the first part of the question, at all.

I also have left off assuming that the apostles 'thought', when they asked the question, that the two events (the destruction of the temple and the return of Christ/end of the Age) were one and the same. Until recently I fell into the same trap of mind reading what the apostles thought/didn't think and believed/ didn't believe - but there's no hint in Acts or any of the epistles that any of them believed that the end of the Age would come and Jesus would return when the temple was destroyed.

I'm sure that if the apostles had believed the above, they would have said something to someone about it, given that it would have been an immensely important piece of information to pass on - but there is no record of Barnabus nor any other person mentioned in ECF history saying that the apostle had taught him that this was going to be the case.

Fact is, they knew nothing about dates for anything, and this proves (to me) that though they asked Jesus when the temple would be destroyed, He did not answer them, but He did give them the sign of His coming and of the end of the Age that they had asked for.

I'm not actually sure we disagree about Matthew 24:21-22. Your post doesn't seem like you're arguing against what I just said about it.

We don't have to rely on what the Apostles believed or did not believe on it. Jesus defined that "great tribulation" for His Church, not... just His Apostles with Him there on the Mount of Olives.

Man's seminary doctrine of Preterism tries to move that "great tribulation" backwards in history, like 70 A.D., when Jesus was giving it about the end of this world, because like you said, His Apostles asked Him about the end and the sign of His coming. Jesus even linked that "great tribulation" with the placing of the "abomination of desolation" idol in a temple in Jerusalem, which has never happened to do this day since His 1st coming.

So it ought to be easy to realize that "great tribulation" cannot be applied to back in history, and not even in our own immediate history of the 20th century.

 

[ButterflyJones]

Yes, Paul saw a bright light and he heard Jesus voice and conversed with Him.

7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

Paul did not know that to be Jesus' voice at first.

Acts 9,Acts 22, Acts 26

 

[ewq1938]

There are different accounts of the Damascus road encounter.
It was a bright light Saul encountered.

So Moses never met God, just a bright, firery light in a bush?

 

[ButterflyJones]

So Moses never met God, just a bright, firery light in a bush?

True.
Because as God told him, no man can gaze upon the face of God and live.
Exodus 33:20

 

[ewq1938]

True.
Because as God told him, no man can gaze upon the face of God and live.
Exodus 33:20

Not true, Moses did meet God. You don't have to see a face to have met with someone.

 

[The Light]

We don't have to rely on what the Apostles believed or did not believe on it. Jesus defined that "great tribulation" for His Church, not... just His Apostles with Him there on the Mount of Olives.

The Church will be in heaven before the seals are opened. See Revelation 4 and 5. Jesus ministry was to the House of Israel. The Great Tribulation will be the time the eyes of the Jews are opened. It is the time of Jacobs trouble.

Man's seminary doctrine of Preterism tries to move that "great tribulation" backwards in history, like 70 A.D., when Jesus was giving it about the end of this world, because like you said, His Apostles asked Him about the end and the sign of His coming. Jesus even linked that "great tribulation" with the placing of the "abomination of desolation" idol in a temple in Jerusalem, which has never happened to do this day since His 1st coming.

So it ought to be easy to realize that "great tribulation" cannot be applied to back in history, and not even in our own immediate history of the 20th century.

 

[ewq1938]

The Church will be in heaven before the seals are opened. See Revelation 4 and 5.

Only dead members of the church are in heaven. The rapture is at the 7th trump and does not happen anywhere near the opening of the seals and certainly not before any are opened. See all of Revelation and the gospels and Paul's writings.

 

[The Light]

Only dead members of the church are in heaven.

Revelation 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Revelation 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Jesus says that He comes quickly, hold fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Then we see 24 elders in heaven with crowns. Obviously, Jesus has come.

The rapture is at the 7th trump and does not happen anywhere near the opening of the seals and certainly not before any are opened. See all of Revelation and the gospels and Paul's writings.

There are two raptures. There is a grain harvest (barley and wheat) and a fruit harvest. Jacob had two brides. The fig tree has two harvests.

One coming will be like the days of Noah, where Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. Likewise, also, one coming will be like the days of Lot, where the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.

One coming is at the trump of God or voice of God, likewise also, one coming is at the last trump, blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

One coming the dead in Christ rise first, the barley harvest. Then Christ brings the dead with when He returns for the alive that remained. The wheat harvest. One coming the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye. The fruit harvest.

One coming the Lord Himself comes. One coming He sends His angels.

One coming is before the seals are opened, when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. One coming is before the wrath of God when the gathering from heaven and earth occurs.

 

[Truth7t7]

Revelation 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Revelation 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Jesus says that He comes quickly, hold fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Then we see 24 elders in heaven with crowns. Obviously, Jesus has come.



There are two raptures. There is a grain harvest (barley and wheat) and a fruit harvest. Jacob had two brides. The fig tree has two harvests.

One coming will be like the days of Noah, where Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. Likewise, also, one coming will be like the days of Lot, where the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.

One coming is at the trump of God or voice of God, likewise also, one coming is at the last trump, blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

One coming the dead in Christ rise first, the barley harvest. Then Christ brings the dead with when He returns for the alive that remained. The wheat harvest. One coming the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye. The fruit harvest.

One coming the Lord Himself comes. One coming He sends His angels.

One coming is before the seals are opened, when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. One coming is before the wrath of God when the gathering from heaven and earth occurs.

There is one future coming of Jesus Christ, this takes place on "the last day", when all that are in the Graves will come forth in the resurrection, as the living in Christ are caught up/raptured (The End)

 

[The Light]

There is one future coming of Jesus Christ, this takes place on "the last day", when all that are in the Graves will come forth in the resurrection, as the living in Christ are caught up/raptured (The End)

Yeah, I know. I used to think that too.

There are two raptures. There is a grain harvest (barley and wheat) and a fruit harvest. Jacob had two brides. The fig tree has two harvests.

One coming will be like the days of Noah, where Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. Likewise, also, one coming will be like the days of Lot, where the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.

One coming is at the trump of God or voice of God, likewise also, one coming is at the last trump, blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

One coming the dead in Christ rise first, the barley harvest. Then Christ brings the dead with when He returns for the alive that remained. The wheat harvest. One coming the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye. The fruit harvest.

One coming the Lord Himself comes. One coming He sends His angels.

One coming is before the seals are opened, when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. One coming is before the wrath of God when the gathering from heaven and earth occurs.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

There are two raptures.

And here I thought there were THREE ( Future ) raptures, but must have been mistaken :

Mid-Trib? = In the Time Of Jacob's (Israel's 'woman') Trouble:

(2) witnesses "ascended up to heaven" (Rev 11:11-12 KJV), And:

(3) 144,000 "sealed on earth" (Rev 7:4-8 KJV), and then "redeemed {raptured?}
from the earth, And found before "The Throne Of God" (14:3-5 KJV)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

However, prior to these, when The Current Dispensation of Grace Is Closed = Pre-Trib!:

(1) our "The Body Of CHRIST's" (ONE New 'man' [ Not 'bride' ] - Ephesians 2:15) #:

Great GRACE Departure To Heaven!
(Romans - Philemon, Especially 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Comfort!
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 KJV) More, in depth, here:

God's Great GRACE Departure!
See you in God’s Great GloryLand! ♫ ↑

Amen.

 

[The Light]

And here I thought there were THREE ( Future ) raptures, but must have been mistaken :

Yes you were mistaken. I was just counting the main harvests but if we are counting raptures there are at least 5.

Mid-Trib? = In the Time Of Jacob's (Israel's 'woman') Trouble:

(2) witnesses "ascended up to heaven" (Rev 11:11-12 KJV), And:

(3) 144,000 "sealed on earth" (Rev 7:4-8 KJV), and then "redeemed {raptured?}
from the earth, And found before *The Throne Of God" (14:3-5 KJV)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

However, prior to these, when The Current Dispensation of Grace Is Closed = Pre-Trib!:

(1) our "The Body Of CHRIST's" (ONE New 'man' [ Not 'bride' ] - Ephesians 2:15) #:

Great GRACE Departure To Heaven!
(Romans - Philemon, Especially 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Comfort!
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 KJV) More, in depth, here:

God's Great GRACE Departure!
See you in God’s Great GloryLand! ♫ ↑

Amen.

See you there soon.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yeah, I know. I used to think that too.

There are two raptures. There is a grain harvest (barley and wheat) and a fruit harvest. Jacob had two brides. The fig tree has two harvests.

One coming will be like the days of Noah, where Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. Likewise, also, one coming will be like the days of Lot, where the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.

One coming is at the trump of God or voice of God, likewise also, one coming is at the last trump, blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

One coming the dead in Christ rise first, the barley harvest. Then Christ brings the dead with when He returns for the alive that remained. The wheat harvest. One coming the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye. The fruit harvest.

One coming the Lord Himself comes. One coming He sends His angels.

One coming is before the seals are opened, when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. One coming is before the wrath of God when the gathering from heaven and earth occurs.

I Disagred