Is the Sabbath a 'test of loyalty'?

[CadyandZoe]

Exodus 31
16 Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.

Deuteronomy 5
15 And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

There—that's better.

No distracting boldface to distract from words like "perpetual," "forever," and "for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed," or to suggest that there was only one reason the Sabbath was given to man, as both Exodus 20 and 31 make very clear.



Problem is, these are just the half-true words of man mixed in with some Scripture that has to be interpreted in direct contradiction with other Scripture to be considered (in)conclusive evidence of the abrogation of the literal reading of the 4th commandment.



Ah, a loophole! Now we don't have any pesky cross-references to get in the way of doing a Sabbathectomy on the law of God!



Too bad good old Dr. Vine wasn't inspired like the writers of the Bible were.

Exodus and Deuteronomy are talking about the Hebrew people who came out of Egypt. Keeping the Sabbath Day is unique to these people.

 

[mailmandan]

The sad reality is this: As long as people will hold to covenant theology with its allegorical method of hermeneutics, there will always be those who twist the commands God gave to the Jews and seek to make them apply to the church as well. Of the 613 commands God gave to Moses on the mount, only 9 are carried forward to the church.

God made obsolete the old covenant to legally put into place the new covenant. (2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Hebrews 8:6-13) The life of discipleship flows out of the new command, to love one another as He loved us. (John 13:34) Love fulfills the law (Romans 13:8-10) and out of this single command comes other commands, including references for the moral aspect of 9 of the 10 commandments which are reiterated under the new covenant, yet the command to keep the sabbath day is not binding on Christians under the new covenant.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - 1 Timothy 6:1; James 2:7; James 5:12
4. Keep the sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15
7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:

 

[BarneyFife]

there is no command for the church to keep the Sabbath. That is only derived by people allegorizing the Scriptures and making the church teh "New Israel" which we are not!

Oh, you mean like the way folks allegorize Scripture making Jesus the "new Sabbath" which He is not?!

You're more fun than a barrel full of monkeys, Brother Ron!

There's no need to allegorize any basic doctrine. That's for spiritual growth instruction and prophecy.

All that needs to be done is take Scripture as it reads in Exodus 20 like all Christians did until Google started doing everybody's Bible study for them.

 

[BarneyFife]

Exodus and Deuteronomy are talking about the Hebrew people who came out of Egypt. Keeping the Sabbath Day is unique to these people.

No, it's really not. There are millions and millions of Christians all over the world who keep the 7th day Sabbath. There are even animals who keep it. Actually, human bodies try to keep it but people won't let them.

 

[BarneyFife]

Of the 613 commands God gave to Moses on the mount, only 9 are carried forward to the church.

I've seen these Mitzvot lists. They are nothing like the magical "# 613" that folks get from Google.

No form of Rabbinical authority would validate the claim you make here, and no consensus has been reached regarding these explicit and implicit commands, of which almost none were given at Sinai.

It's just a number that no Christian knew about pre-Internet.

And there's no need to "carry forward" something that Jesus said would never fail to begin with.

 

[BarneyFife]

Have a pleasant stay in the hospital. Sleep study, maybe? Glad it isn't serious.

Sleep study, yes. I don't need my C-PAP anymore but my wife wants to make sure before she retires and we have to switch to my health ins which is not quite as good as hers.

Anyhow, thing is, Sis, I've been holding out on you for a couple of years because of my warm regard for our friendship. By that I mean I don't want to risk upsetting you because I'm about as Adventist as they come and you're one who likes to hit the theology talk pretty hard.

So any extensive discussion about law, grace, letter, spirit is bound to hit some rough spots. No one understands Adventism like they think they do including, and sometimes especially, Adventists. If that makes sense to you, we might have an easier time than I thought.

I've got a couple of hours before I have to check in, but I don't know if that'll be enough time for me to reply to your original post of yesterday because I think even slower than I type (Amigo De Christo types about 10,000 wpm—sheesh). I actually have some stuff jotted down but it's a mess.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Sleep study, yes. I don't need my C-PAP anymore but my wife wants to make sure before she retires and we have to switch to my health ins which is not quite as good as hers.

Anyhow, thing is, Sis, I've been holding out on you for a couple of years because of my warm regard for our friendship. By that I mean I don't want to risk upsetting you because I'm about as Adventist as they come and you're one who likes to hit the theology talk pretty hard.

So any extensive discussion about law, grace, letter, spirit is bound to hit some rough spots. No one understands Adventism like they think they do including, and sometimes especially, Adventists. If that makes sense to you, we might have an easier time than I thought.

I've got a couple of hours before I have to check in, but I don't know if that'll be enough time for me to reply to your original post of yesterday because I think even slower than I type (Amigo De Christo types about 10,000 wpm—sheesh). I actually have some stuff jotted down but it's a mess.

I can wait. The radio station I listen to is a 3ABN station here in town. I like to listen to sermons of different denominations. But some get me mad. SDA doesn't. But there is a huge cult in Christianity that makes me really afraid for the church. When you seem to be fighting with someone on the forums, I bet it is someone from that cult. I can almost guarantee it! That's not us. I do still believe some of what Adventists teach. And I even learned something new from an Adventist on the forums! I belong to two Christian sites and can't remember which one had the post.

I'm sure we can have a great discussion using scripture to back up what we individually believe. I have the advantage though, because I've had a lot more years knowing what Adventists believe, than you have in what I individually believe seeing as I'm not even in a denomination! LOL And my beliefs keep expanding as I receive new revelation knowledge very often.

Pleasant dreams!

 

[CadyandZoe]

No, it's really not. There are millions and millions of Christians all over the world who keep the 7th day Sabbath. There are even animals who keep it. Actually, human bodies try to keep it but people won't let them.

While it might be true that Christians are resting on the Sabbath each week, they have no obligation to do so.

Bear in mind that Saturday is NOT the Sabbath. The actual Sabbath Day is the next age when Jesus is ruling from Zion, and all his people are resting. For instance, during that age, his followers will be free of sin and will have no struggle against wrong desires. We will be pure at heart and righteous in all of our ways. Figuratively speaking, we will be "at rest." The struggle will be over.

The Jewish people and other Sabbatarians, "keep" the Sabbath day holy by resting on the Seventh day of the week. But they aren't "keeping" the seventh day of the week holy. They are keeping the final age holy in a representational way.

The word "keep" connotes the idea of "preserve," as in the word "keepsake." We are to hold on to the next age, nurture it in our hearts and minds, and preserve it as an unbreakable promise. The Jewish people and other Sabbatarians rest on the seventh day of the week, doing no work, as a way to commemorate that future age.

I am required to "keep" the next age holy in my heart and mind, but I, as a Gentile, am not obligated to rest on the Seventh day of the week in order to commemorate that day. But I rest on Sunday, not out of obligation or duty, but in order to reflect upon the truth of the gospel and all of its implications.

 

[BarneyFife]

The actual Sabbath Day is the next age when Jesus is ruling from Zion, and all his people are resting.

Figuratively speaking, we will be "at rest."

Forgive me, but which kind of rest are we going to be having in the day that is not a day at all—actual or figurative?

Of course, it could be argued that the term "Sabbath Day" affords some kind of escape from this dilemma but, really, how far down this cognitive dissonance hatch do we want to go?

This is simply cunning craftiness (Ephesians 4:14) that's been foisted upon us and accelerated in intensity and frequency by the deceiver's favorite new (although, in many ways, it's waxing old like a garment) tool—the misinformation superhighway.

I don't think we even realize we're doing it. I actually fault no one for doing it. But I cannot, in good conscience, let it pass all of the time.

I have to take a break from opposing it once in a while because it's really hard on a person's inclination to be kind.

But I keep saying this, in particular, and I get no argument or even acknowledgment:

Before the Internet came around, no one said stuff like this.

No one.

Well, except for a scarce few rogue theologians to which no one paid any attention.

I've been seemingly forever asking for evidence that folks commonly held (even on the smallest organizational scale) to a "spiritual Sabbath/law only" point of doctrine before roughly 1990, and I have yet to be offered even the sketchiest bit of it.

...which strongly implies that for about 1960 years, Christianity had it all wrong.

I don't know how to accept that.

Help me out, somebody.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Forgive me, but which kind of rest are we going to be having in the day that is not a day at all—actual or figurative?

Actual rest. The language is figurative for something real.

Of course, it could be argued that the term "Sabbath Day" affords some kind of escape from this dilemma but, really, how far down this cognitive dissonance hatch do we want to go?

As far as you like. Red pill or blue pill?

This is simply cunning craftiness (Ephesians 4:14) that's been foisted upon us and accelerated in intensity and frequency by the deceiver's favorite new (although, in many ways, it's waxing old like a garment) tool—the misinformation superhighway.

I don't think we even realize we're doing it. I actually fault no one for doing it. But I cannot, in good conscience, let it pass all of the time.

I have to take a break from opposing it once in a while because it's really hard on a person's inclination to be kind.

But I keep saying this, in particular, and I get no argument or even acknowledgment:

Before the Internet came around, no one said stuff like this.

No one.

Well, the Internet has democratized information. Before the internet, one needed an advanced degree in Theology, and getting published was next to impossible. Until recently, when the government took over social media to spread lies, the internet quickly allowed the dissemination of the truth.

Well, except for a scarce few rogue theologians to which no one paid any attention.

I've been seemingly forever asking for evidence that folks commonly held (even on the smallest organizational scale) to a "spiritual Sabbath/law only" point of doctrine before roughly 1990, and I have yet to be offered even the sketchiest bit of it.

...which strongly implies that for about 1960 years, Christianity had it all wrong.

Don't you understand that "Christianity" has always had it wrong? This is why God gave us the New Testament, which is where we find correct doctrine.

I don't know how to accept that.

Help me out, somebody.

All I can say is don't doubt yourself. Believe your own eyes. Christians have suffered under misinterpreted, misconstrued, and misapplied verses ever since the first century. Our only defense is personal Bible study.

Give up on idolatry.

Be careful who you follow.

 

[CadyandZoe]

One more thing, I am not against those who choose to rest on Saturday. My uncles and great-uncles were SDA. I believe Paul the apostle would say that anyone keeping the Sabbath day obeys his or her Lord. And no one should find fault with those who obey the Lord for the sake of conscience.

 

[BarneyFife]

Actual rest. The language is figurative for something real.

I guess I'm too dense to understand exactly what's being advanced as literal or as figurative. Man's words and God's words are all mixed together in this discussion.

So, exactly what does "Figuratively speaking, we will be at rest" mean?

Because it sounds an awful lot like we won't be at rest at all. Perhaps you'd like to re-phrase?

When the Sabbath was given to man, there was no sin to rest from. God rested from his sinless work of creating the heavens and the earth. He was setting an example for man in a world that was intended (regardless of foreknowledge) to be without sin. All of this stuff is so simple, but folks can't seem to tolerate simplicity nowadays.

As far as you like. Red pill or blue pill?

I don't think Hollywood is going to help clear this up.

Well, the Internet has democratized information. Before the internet, one needed an advanced degree in Theology and could only be read in theological journals. Until recently, when the government took over social media to spread lies, the internet quickly allowed the dissemination of the truth.

It also allows the dissemination of gross error, to which we humans draw like moths to a flame.

Don't you understand that "Christianity" has always had it wrong? This is why God gave us the New Testament, which is where we find correct doctrine.

God says that all Scripture is inspired, profitable, etc., and when He said this, the only testament we had was the Old (which is why dispensationalism has no firm foundation). It's also the Testament that the apostolic church used to evangelize the known world. The New Testament magnifies and amplifies the Old; it does not replace it.

All I can say is don't doubt yourself. Believe your own eyes.

I would very much prefer to doubt myself and trust not my own eyes, which seems to be a prevalent counsel of Scripture if I recall correctly (Jeremiah 17:9, Proverbs 3:5).

Christians have suffered under misinterpreted, misconstrued, and misapplied verses ever since the first century. Our only defense is personal Bible study.

This bit I couldn't agree more with.

Give up on idolatry.

Why worry about the 2nd commandment if the 4th is a wash? And what is it exactly that I might need to give up idolizing?

Be careful who you follow.

What's to be careful about in following the figurative Lamb whithersoever He goeth?

 

[BarneyFife]

It seems that there is constant confusion about the difference between opposing people and opposing what people believe—yet another neurosis that this media-saturated age has proliferated and perfected.

It is a shame that we have to be so careful to state as I did above that I fault no one for their beliefs.

But here we are, in a world where sensitivity to all kinds of murder, licentiousness, and excess in appetite is benumbed, but just let a person comment on another's choice of clothing, motor vehicle, sports team, or, worst of all, philosophical belief and they are guilty of the most heinous kind of hate.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

...which strongly implies that for about 1960 years, Christianity had it all wrong.

I don't know how to accept that.

Help me out, somebody.

Hey Barn, this is what I've been saying too. That's why I'm not in any man-made denomination. Sorry, not even yours. LOL

Once I got on the internet and Christian forum sites, I was shocked at what popular denominations taught and actually believed!

What do you call the opposite of what Jesus taught? A doctrine of demons.

This is why I always come to the defense of SDA's on forums, because even though you keep the letter of the law, and don't even know what the Spirit of the law is, at least you have a functioning conscience and can be saved! The huge cult in Christianity can't, because they are in the hands of their demons.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Exodus and Deuteronomy are talking about the Hebrew people who came out of Egypt. Keeping the Sabbath Day is unique to these people.

Only in timing. The Church is not separate from the children of Israel as God's people, but a continuation. Read Romans 11. Jesus is the Jew's Messiah and the gospel was preached by Jesus only to them. All the apostles and Paul were Jews. We Gentiles are grafted into the Jewish Church of God's people. Not all Israel believed and were broken off. And not all Gentiles have come into God's people either. The Church started on the Day of Pentecost when the New Covenant of the Holy Spirit came upon the Jews who already believed in Jesus. 3000 new Jewish converts happened that day.

The Sabbath day kept in the letter of the law was the sign of the Old Covenant with the Jews; in that you are correct. The sign of the New Covenant of the Spirit is the Cup of the New Covenant, 1 Corinthians 11:25. We are to keep the Spirit of the Sabbath. It is not ONLY a church era like the Millennium, but that is astute of you to recognize. What is the Spirit of the Sabbath called?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Bear in mind that Saturday is NOT the Sabbath. The actual Sabbath Day is the next age when Jesus is ruling from Zion, and all his people are resting. For instance, during that age, his followers will be free of sin and will have no struggle against wrong desires. We will be pure at heart and righteous in all of our ways. Figuratively speaking, we will be "at rest." The struggle will be over.

God's laws were given to the Jews but are for the world. Saturday is still the Sabbath for sinners, because the Law is still in effect for transgressors who have not been freed from sin by and in Jesus.

I am required to "keep" the next age holy in my heart and mind, but I, as a Gentile, am not obligated to rest on the Seventh day of the week in order to commemorate that day. But I rest on Sunday, not out of obligation or duty, but in order to reflect upon the truth of the gospel and all of its implications.

You are not REQUIRED to always be thinking about the Millennium. That is a CadyandZoe made letter of their law. Nor are you required to rest on Sunday. That again is a letter of someone's mind. Do so if you like, just as SDA can keep Saturday.

But WE MUST KEEP THE SPIRIT OF THE SABBATH. What is it? Doesn't anyone know who belongs to man made denominations?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

As far as you like. Red pill or blue pill?

WHAT? SLEEPING PILLS ARE THE ANSWER FOR GOD'S REST????????????????

Actual rest. The language is figurative for something real.

It is not physical rest. It is spiritual rest. The question is how?

Don't you understand that "Christianity" has always had it wrong? This is why God gave us the New Testament, which is where we find correct doctrine.

Yes, you can get correct information from the New Testament, but you need more. What?

All I can say is don't doubt yourself. Believe your own eyes. Christians have suffered under misinterpreted, misconstrued, and misapplied verses ever since the first century. Our only defense is personal Bible study.

I agree. If more people knew the Bible, they wouldn't be tricked into believing doctrines of demons.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

One more thing, I am not against those who choose to rest on Saturday. My uncles and great-uncles were SDA. I believe Paul the apostle would say that anyone keeping the Sabbath day obeys his or her Lord. And no one should find fault with those who obey the Lord for the sake of conscience.

I agree. That goes for Sunday keepers as well. There is no letter of the law for physical rest on any particular day of the week.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I guess I'm too dense to understand exactly what's being advanced as literal or as figurative. Man's words and God's words are all mixed together in this discussion.

So, exactly what does "Figuratively speaking, we will be at rest" mean?

Because it sounds an awful lot like we won't be at rest at all. Perhaps you'd like to re-phrase?

Let me use an example. When we all sit down to eat the communion, we take a piece of bread and a small cup of grape juice and as the pastor recites the account of the Last Supper, we eat the bread and drink the cup at the appropriate time. The bread and cup represent the body and blood of Christ. And as Jesus said, "As oft as you eat this, do it in remembrance of me." The bread and wine are symbolic representations of the body and blood of Christ and as often as we eat and drink them together in church, we are remembering that Jesus gave himself to God as an offering for our sins.

The Next age is real and it will be a wonderful and blessed thing. Those who rest on the Seventh day of the week, are remembering the final age. Just as eating the communion bread remembers the body of Christ who died for our sins, resting on the Seventh day of the week remembers the next age.

When the Sabbath was given to man, there was no sin to rest from. God rested from his sinless work of creating the heavens and the earth. He was setting an example for man in a world that was intended (regardless of foreknowledge) to be without sin. All of this stuff is so simple, but folks can't seem to tolerate simplicity nowadays.

Maybe God was setting an example for us to follow, I don't know. But Moses tells Israel to keep the Sabbath Day Holy because God rested on the Seventh-day and not only did God rest, he blessed the Seventh-day.

What is the Seventh Day? Consider that the "days" represent the ages of creation. There were five ages, eras, eons, or stages of time during which mankind didn't exist yet. The sixth "day" of creation witnessed the dominion of Mankind. Thus, Day Seven is another age or period of time when God is resting and he has dominion over all the earth. THAT future age is the age that God blessed and sanctified.

God says that all Scripture is inspired, profitable, etc., and when He said this, the only testament we had was the Old (which is why dispensationalism has no firm foundation). It's also the Testament that the apostolic church used to evangelize the known world. The New Testament magnifies and amplifies the Old; it does not replace it.

Of course, but one more thing. Paul argued that the Gentiles are not required to live Jewishly. Resting on Saturday is living Jewishly. So Gentiles are not obligated to rest on Saturday. Resting on Saturday marks the Jewish people as his people and applies to them exclusively.

I would very much prefer to doubt myself and trust not my own eyes, which seems to be a prevalent counsel of Scripture if I recall correctly (Jeremiah 17:9, Proverbs 3:5).

Okay, the Bible says that Jesus will not judge according to what he sees. I believe this means that he will judge fairly and not be influenced by fancy or rich apparel. But the Gospel of John is dedicated to a discussion of why someone should believe the gospel, and he highly emphasizes Jesus' rebuke of the Pharisee's unbelief in view of the miracles. God was critical of Israel for the same reason as he led them through the Exodus from Egypt. Israel continued to distrust God even in the light of his overt protection and provision.

Why worry about the 2nd commandment if the 4th is a wash?

Good question. We all need to come to grips with this question. In my view moral behavior can be divided into two main groups: 1) explicitly moral and implicitly moral.

"Thou shalt not murder" is explicitly moral in that the moral imperative is unqualified. It stands alone without qualification. Committing murder is always wrong and never allowed. There is no case, situation, or circumstance when murder is permitted.

Thou shall not work on the Sabbath day" is implicitly moral in that the moral imperative is qualified by God's covenant with Israel.

Exodus 31:13
“But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you.

According to the Lord, resting on Saturday is a sign between God and Israel throughout their generations. Since resting on Saturday is qualified by God as being a sign between Israel and God, then it is an implicit moral imperative. It would be wrong for Israel to disobey, but not a moral obligation for a non-Israelite.

And what is it exactly that I might need to give up idolizing?

John warned us all about idolatry. 1 John 5:21. So I wasn't suggesting that you were following an idol. Only that we all, including myself, need to guard against popular teachers who may lead us astray. That's why I recommend personal Bible study.

What's to be careful about in following the figurative Lamb whithersoever He goeth?

 

[CadyandZoe]

WHAT? SLEEPING PILLS ARE THE ANSWER FOR GOD'S REST????????????????

It is not physical rest. It is spiritual rest. The question is how?

Yes, you can get correct information from the New Testament, but you need more. What?

I agree. If more people knew the Bible, they wouldn't be tricked into believing doctrines of demons.

Spiritual rest is a concept that doesn't make sense to me.