CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Paul argued that Gentile members of the body of Christ are not obligated to live Jewishly. Resting on the Seventh day is living Jewishly.
Is the Sabbath a 'test of loyalty'?
- Thread starter Hobie
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well as I do not do google for bible study, that is irrelavent to me.Oh, you mean like the way folks allegorize Scripture making Jesus the "new Sabbath" which He is not?!
You're more fun than a barrel full of monkeys, Brother Ron!
There's no need to allegorize any basic doctrine. That's for spiritual growth instruction and prophecy.
All that needs to be done is take Scripture as it reads in Exodus 20 like all Christians did until Google started doing everybody's Bible study for them.
I have read Ex. 20 sans google for 49 years. I read it in context and know that those ten commandments written in stone are a ministry of death as Paul said in corinthians.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Thats funny, I knew of the Mosaic laws and how many, long before I even owned a computer, never mind google.I've seen these Mitzvot lists. They are nothing like the magical "# 613" that folks get from Google.
No form of Rabbinical authority would validate the claim you make here, and no consensus has been reached regarding these explicit and implicit commands, of which almost none were given at Sinai.
It's just a number that no Christian knew about pre-Internet.
And there's no need to "carry forward" something that Jesus said would never fail to begin with.
Well teh ten instone which minister death are part and parcel of the 613. and they were given to Israel as a people alone. And ot teh gentile who chose to live in the land of Israel.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Spiritual rest means we ceasde form trying to work for salvation as the law required and rest in the finished work of Jesus at the cross.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I see no evidence that the world is obligated to live Jewishly. The world is obligated to live morally, but not Jewishly.
The Lord taught his disciples to pray, "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." He also taught his disciples, "Seek first the kingdom of God" and the apostles taught them, "Keep your eyes on the things above." And I never said anyone was required to rest on Sunday.
I need specific details to know if we agree on this point or not. I am not interested in pitting one denomination against another. I consider all followers of Jesus to be brothers and/or sisters in the Lord.
Perhaps it might be helpful to remind us of the following:
Colossians 3:1-3
Therefore, if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
That's because it was only taught in the first century by the apostles and Jesus, not since.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Nope, that can easily be twisted and has been turned into a doctrine of demons.
Think about it more and what Jesus said.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Do you agree with @Ronald Nolette definition that I found very helpful? In your view, is spiritual rest the cessation of seeking justification through works?
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
The world does not work 7 days a week with no break. Labor laws came into effect because of the Sabbath.
There are some denominations like the Amish who call Sunday, the Sabbath.
You're getting close.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Thing is, Sis, I know we're speaking light-heartedly here, but I want as many people to know Jesus as fully as they can manage, regardless of which card they carry. In the new heavens and the new earth, there will be no Seventh-day Adventists (both the controversy over the Sabbath and the second advent of Christ will have then passed). I'm convicted it is the place for me right now, but I'm hoping and praying I don't have to be one much longer. Does that make sense?
This is very insightful, although just a hair inconsistent, if I might suggest.
Most Adventists, unfortunately, would be better served by a gentle rebuke than a defense.
Because the same Spirit that is 'of the law,' also does the saving! And thus the same resistance to the Spirit of the law resists the Spirit that saves. No one who persists in seeking to keep the letter of the law without yielding to the Spirit of that law will be saved!
Roger Morneau was a widely recognized Adventist celebrity of sorts who had early-in-life experience with Satanism. You might remember him. He popularized a story where he was privy to a meeting of Satan and his imps planning strategy against Christianity. One of the participants was reported to have brought up Adventism, upon which a fallen angel rose from his seat and abruptly said "Adventists cannot be deceived because they keep the 7th day Sabbath" which seemed to bring that topic of discussion to a quick enough conclusion.
This story was related to some similar accounts by Mrs. White and really took wing. Morneau likely never realized he had played right into the devil's hands, in a sense. In the mid to late 20th century, as I'm sure you can testify to, the church had a marked revival of ultra-conservativism spurred on by QOD and the Ford/Rhea Glacier View debacle. And Adventists, more than ever, reverted to a sense of complacency well-characterized by slogans/buzzwords like "we have the truth," etc., ad nauseum.
Non-Adventists will be quick to seize upon these admissions as justification for discounting Adventist doctrine.
But non-Adventists are doing the same thing with their own branding.
We can't escape the tendency we have to replace God's plan with our own.
It is the foundation of every false religion.
Israel was the steward of the very oracles of God.
Yet when the Messiah visited them, they crucified Him.
So we think that a proper understanding of methods or prophecies will keep us safe.
They will not...
A mental assent to the changing of times and laws and the imminence of Christ's second coming will not...
We must be born again.
And again
And again
And again
The Catholic must.
The anti-denominationalist must.
And everything in-between and beyond... must.
Trust and obey, 'cause there's no other way...
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
My reply to him is #127 But the answer is no. It is very incomplete.
Do either of you or Ron know WHY justification through works by our own power like the Jews did, didn't make anyone righteous? But faith without works is dead?
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Where is it written that there will be a "controversy over the Sabbath"? Remember, I would like to use Scripture when making a statement of belief. And I expect you are talking about the letter of the law.
What does this mean?
Romans 7:6
6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Actually, according to Paul, Moses taught justification by faith.
It depends on what you mean by "works".
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Quiz? Do you? Does that question offend you? Should I be offended?
Because so many folks think they have no more re-birthing left to do. And you can't get a perception of that by merely asking someone or observing their words and actions, even. The sin problem is so serious that words can barely describe it. God felt He had to use 3/4 million (at least, of the English ones) to get it across to us. Even in the best, apparently converted life of a person, the taint of selfish motives runs so deep and wide as to be abhorrent to God. One of my favorite quotes from C.D. Brooks is: "The problem with legalists is they don't take the law seriously enough!" Of course, he probably stole it from H.M.S. Richards, Sr. or D.A. Delafield.
I'm sure you are familiar with Last Generation Theology. I don't care much for labels—they are too readily transformed to bullseyes—but I believe it is true that just before the 2nd coming of Jesus those who are loyal to God will prefer death to sinning against Him, but to declare one's own self to be functionally free from sin at this time especially is precarious, at best.
It is a matter of established (non-Adventist) hermeneutics that prophecy is often interpreted symbolically. If you mean "Scripture only" then there is no need to make a statement of belief at all. Also, without any interpretation, systematic theology becomes irrelevant, to which I'm afraid I cannot agree, Sis.
It will be no surprise to you that we do not hold the same views on the juxtaposition between the words "letter" and "Spirit" in Romans 7:6, Sis. I do not believe that either precludes all utility of the other. This can be easily discerned from a careful study of the word "not" in Scripture. The Great Apostle uses the word "law" with such scope and versatility that to believe I could say for sure exactly what he means every time he uses it would be to virtually risk presumption. Did you ever notice that no one seems to ever want to fess up about any passage from his pen that they find particularly "hard to be understood?"
And that is the short version of that discussion.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
I would not be offended seeing as how important it is to Jesus. So if I care about someone's salvation, I would care if they were born again of the Spirit or not. And in this case it has to do directly with the Spirit of the Sabbath. So if you are offended, why? What does it mean to you seeing as you keep the letter, and don't seem to know what keeping the Spirit of the Sabbath entails, though it is the most important thing in being a true Christian.Quiz? Do you? Does that question offend you? Should I be offended?
I think there is only a problem in semantics. No we are only born again of the Spirit once. Yes, there is a progression through the Spirit of the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith. Romans 1:16-17
I haven't a clue what is Last Generation Theology. Is it a new denomination or something?
You said:" but I believe it is true that just before the 2nd coming of Jesus those who are loyal to God will prefer death to sinning against Him, but to declare one's own self to be functionally free from sin at this time especially is precarious, at best."
Barn are you saying that what is precarious right now is freedom from sin? I'm not sure if I understand what you meant, and why you said it.
Whatever our Christian belief, it must be based on Scripture.
Barn, I just love the way you write. It is like fine prose! But I understand you to say you do NOT know what the Spirit of the Sabbath is. Is that correct?It will be no surprise to you that we do not hold the same views on the juxtaposition between the words "letter" and "Spirit" in Romans 7:6, Sis. I do not believe that either precludes all utility of the other. This can be easily discerned from a careful study of the word "not" in Scripture. The Great Apostle uses the word "law" with such scope and versatility that to believe I could say for sure exactly what he means every time he uses it would be to virtually risk presumption. Did you ever notice that no one seems to ever want to fess up about any passage from his pen that they find particularly "hard to be understood?"
And that is the short version of that discussion.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Actually, according to Paul, Moses taught justification by faith.
It depends on what you mean by "works".
It has to do with what Paul meant by works. He was talking against the physical works of Judaism, like circumcision, feast days, Sabbath days and years, and foods.
What does works mean to you and Ron? The reason why I said that what Ron said could be twisted is because of the notion that to stop morally sinning is a work, and we are not saved by not sinning. That would be a doctrine of demons. Because a born again Christian does not commit moral sins.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Since I was a very young lad, I've always found Linda Darnell to be just distractingly beautiful. I'm quite glad I never met her. I'm sure I would have made quite a fool of myself. 
Well, that is good to know! And I'm not being facetious, either.
That's also admirable. But I confess, I don't boil down soteriology to as many fine points as most folks around these parts do, Sis. So this might be a discussion all unto itself, but we'll see, okay?
This point comes up a few times in your post, so we'll come back to it, if that's all right.
I seldom get offended, and this definitely isn't one of those times.
Not sure whether you mean new birth in the Spirit or Spirit of the Sabbath but bear with me.
I'm not sure how you can determine that I keep the letter. These things get over-complicated very easily for me.
And there's that SotS, again. Hold on.
Getting there, Sis.
On the other hand, when folks invoke the "semantics" claim, I've found that something is often being over-simplified. It is not important for me to understand what keeping the 5th commandment involves for you. But it is extremely important for me to examine the way I treat my parents and other authority figures that God in His providence has put over me. The 5th commandment also enjoins upon me the necessity of taking great care in the way I relate to those who might have been entrusted by God to my care and responsibility. You might call this a sampling of the "Spirit Of Parental Honor," so to speak. For if we believe that he that offends in one point, is guilty of all, then they all must be of at least somewhat equal import. But I'm getting ahead of myself.
Well, then, it might be to your dismay to learn that that has not been my experience, that I can recall.
My perception of my experience is that I pray once a day, especially, that God would forgive my sins of the previous day and change me so that I might not sin at all and that I might think, say, and do only those things that will tend to draw others closer to His Son, at least until I can make that daily request again. I pray determinedly at least twice a day, preferably more, besides incidental prayer.
Along the way of my walk with God, I have had watershed moments when it has been clear to me that God has made a distinct stride in my attachment to and understanding of His lovely character, especially in Christ.
But I have no recollection of a point at which I was suddenly aware of some profound once-in-a-lifetime connection to Him.
But I do have times when I am keenly aware of emerging and past situations of how patient He's been with me and how wonderful it is that while I was yet without strength, yet a sinner, nay, yet an enemy of God, His Son's life was given for me as though I were the only person who ever lived, and when he said "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do," he especially meant me.
I can only hope this testimony doesn't disqualify me from God's grace, somehow.
I guess this is sort of addressed directly above, Sis.
No, it is a long-standing, somewhat controversial subset of Adventist doctrine.
Couldn't agree more, Sis! Now, define "based on"—a-a-and GO
Well, that's kind of you to say, Sis, but I really just want to be as unlikely as possible to be misunderstood. It's so hard nowadays, you know?
I'm sure I'll get all kinds of heat for this from onlookers, but the only connections that come to mind at least immediately between the Holy Spirit and a specific commandment are of the 8th and the 9th in Acts 5.
In Hebrews 3 and 4 the rest of Canaan is definitely likened to the rest of the new heavens and earth and of the freedom from sin as found in Jesus but I've been exposed to the claim that the mention of the Sabbath in ch. 4 relegates the 4th commandment to some kind of abstract symbol, but I just don't find a preponderance of evidence from Scripture as a whole to support that theory.
I understand that some folks feel very strongly about this abstract Sabbath-keeping theory, but I cannot conscientiously surrender my view of the situation without better cause than that which I've heretofore been offered, and I've seen nothing novel in that respect for many, many years.
Your serve, Sis.
Well, that is good to know! And I'm not being facetious, either.
That's also admirable. But I confess, I don't boil down soteriology to as many fine points as most folks around these parts do, Sis. So this might be a discussion all unto itself, but we'll see, okay?
This point comes up a few times in your post, so we'll come back to it, if that's all right.
I seldom get offended, and this definitely isn't one of those times.
Not sure whether you mean new birth in the Spirit or Spirit of the Sabbath but bear with me.
I'm not sure how you can determine that I keep the letter. These things get over-complicated very easily for me.
And there's that SotS, again. Hold on.
Getting there, Sis.
On the other hand, when folks invoke the "semantics" claim, I've found that something is often being over-simplified. It is not important for me to understand what keeping the 5th commandment involves for you. But it is extremely important for me to examine the way I treat my parents and other authority figures that God in His providence has put over me. The 5th commandment also enjoins upon me the necessity of taking great care in the way I relate to those who might have been entrusted by God to my care and responsibility. You might call this a sampling of the "Spirit Of Parental Honor," so to speak. For if we believe that he that offends in one point, is guilty of all, then they all must be of at least somewhat equal import. But I'm getting ahead of myself.
Well, then, it might be to your dismay to learn that that has not been my experience, that I can recall.
My perception of my experience is that I pray once a day, especially, that God would forgive my sins of the previous day and change me so that I might not sin at all and that I might think, say, and do only those things that will tend to draw others closer to His Son, at least until I can make that daily request again. I pray determinedly at least twice a day, preferably more, besides incidental prayer.
Along the way of my walk with God, I have had watershed moments when it has been clear to me that God has made a distinct stride in my attachment to and understanding of His lovely character, especially in Christ.
But I have no recollection of a point at which I was suddenly aware of some profound once-in-a-lifetime connection to Him.
But I do have times when I am keenly aware of emerging and past situations of how patient He's been with me and how wonderful it is that while I was yet without strength, yet a sinner, nay, yet an enemy of God, His Son's life was given for me as though I were the only person who ever lived, and when he said "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do," he especially meant me.
I can only hope this testimony doesn't disqualify me from God's grace, somehow.
I guess this is sort of addressed directly above, Sis.
No, it is a long-standing, somewhat controversial subset of Adventist doctrine.
Not in the slightest. I was just briefly stating my own understanding of what I believe to be true regarding LGT.
Couldn't agree more, Sis! Now, define "based on"—a-a-and GO
Well, that's kind of you to say, Sis, but I really just want to be as unlikely as possible to be misunderstood. It's so hard nowadays, you know?
I suspect that you understand correctly in some sense, at least. Because speaking of basing our beliefs on Scripture, I can find no direct connection between the Holy Spirit and the Sabbath therein.
I'm sure I'll get all kinds of heat for this from onlookers, but the only connections that come to mind at least immediately between the Holy Spirit and a specific commandment are of the 8th and the 9th in Acts 5.
In Hebrews 3 and 4 the rest of Canaan is definitely likened to the rest of the new heavens and earth and of the freedom from sin as found in Jesus but I've been exposed to the claim that the mention of the Sabbath in ch. 4 relegates the 4th commandment to some kind of abstract symbol, but I just don't find a preponderance of evidence from Scripture as a whole to support that theory.
I understand that some folks feel very strongly about this abstract Sabbath-keeping theory, but I cannot conscientiously surrender my view of the situation without better cause than that which I've heretofore been offered, and I've seen nothing novel in that respect for many, many years.
Your serve, Sis.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Similar threads
