Is the Sabbath a 'test of loyalty'?

[GerhardEbersoehn]

If Antichrist be not the Popery in the Church of Jesus Christ there is nothing that can be called by that name in the world.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I believe the commandments of Jesus will set people apart in the end, and most importantly how is you do these two you are abiding IN Christ.

1 John 3:23-24
23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

In the book of 1John, "commandments" means "instructions or teachings." This would include commandments like "love your enemy" but it would also include his parables and his teaching moments.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

In the book of 1John, "commandments" means "instructions or teachings." This would include commandments like "love your enemy" but it would also include his parables and his teaching moments.

It is pretty specific which "commandment" John is talking about.

The first commandment you said, could be without Jesus.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

GE, if you want to throw your boundless, Adventist-loathing weight on the side of the Sabbath question that reduces it to a cruel joke instead of a divine precept and erroneously urges that Jesus was our Sabbath all along (since He changes not and therefore can't be something today that He wasn't in antiquity):

You'll get no opposition inconsistent with due respect for religious liberty from me.

There's been so much cross-posting and thread-jumping/creating that this discussion is nearly unfollowable, but my contention from the beginning has been that the LORD Jesus, as the distinct 2nd person of the Godhead, is nowhere mentioned within the text itself of Genesis 1 & 2.

And He simply isn't.

And no evidence to the contrary has yet been offered.

The plan of redemption is, indeed, in every word of God, but not in each word. And I shouldn't have to remind you, of all people, of that, GE.

Christ's particular identity was seen fit by God to be cloaked in the history of the earth taking place before the entrance of sin into the world.

He is later identified—not verified—in Scripture, as has been claimed (a distinction you should also be able to easily recognize).

This distinction is an exegetical (not personal) hill upon which I am willing to (figuratively, a specification sadly necessary to avoid assumptions of literal meaning) die because the object of the assertion is to spiritualize away the 4th commandment of the Decalogue (which seems counterintuitive since it has already been urged that the ten commandments as a whole mystically "reside in Jesus," making a special assault on the 4th commandment seem unnecessary and strategically suspect) using smoke-and-mirrors for hermeneutics.

For my trouble, as a result of making a few comments about distractions, faulty hermeneutics, and pontificating, I'm now under attack by way of tagging, goading, and accusations of everything from antichrist spirit to Sabbath-desecration, to denial of God's omniscience and, by extension, power of foreknowledge, to denial of Truth and Scripture outright. So, I'm just doing my best to behave in a manner that won't bring shame upon my Saviour or cause thread closings.

You're the one who does NOT respect Scripture's literal meaning. Instead for you, man's dividing Scripture into chapters is the limit literal interpretation goes, whether TRUE, CHRIST meaning continues over Textual divisions or not. To you, the fact that Genesis 2 is the history of the Sixth Day of creation and the fall, and that 3:8 is the "evening cool of day" START of the Seventh Day of the creation-week Sabbath Day, is a contradiction with <divine> SDA <insight>.

And you apparently appropriated this <divine insight> of the SDA to spin this diabolic FALSE accusation against me of <urg(ing) that Jesus was our Sabbath all along>. God does not sleep.

As for the rest of your post, it is pathetically off-topic and muddled with anything just not WITH SCRIPTURE THAT The Lord's Day Sabbath is The Lord's Day Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD BY CAUSE, PURPOSE AND REASON AND SENSE OF, THAT "GOD RAISED CHRIST FROM THE DEAD ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES THE THIRD DAY, THE DAY AFTER THE PREPARATION, THE SABBATH --- WHAT GENESIS 3:8 ESTABLISHES WAS GOD'S TRUTH FROM THE BEGINNING.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It is pretty specific which "commandment" John is talking about.

The first commandment you said, could be without Jesus.

Which commandment is John talking about?

With regard to the book of Revelation and the end times, the fourth commandment is absent. The fourth commandment isn't an issue. The obvious issue during the end times is idolatry. For instance, take note of Paul's description in his second epistle to the Thessalonians.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.​

A man exalts himself above every object of worship in direct violation of the first commandment.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Which commandment is John talking about?

With regard to the book of Revelation and the end times, the fourth commandment is absent. The fourth commandment isn't an issue. The obvious issue during the end times is idolatry. For instance, take note of Paul's description in his second epistle to the Thessalonians.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.​

A man exalts himself above every object of worship in direct violation of the first commandment.

Oh, you are talking about the unbelievers. You're right. If they don't honor the first one, they won't honor the rest. I thought you were talking about what Christians need to believe to be saved which is what I showed you. Christians are not under the commandments for sinners, because we don't sin.

 

[David in NJ]

No. I believe the first, not the fourth commandment will be the litmus test that sets God's people apart in the end.

CORRECT

The FIRST Commandment is the one that opens the Door of Heaven for us.

And since we cannot fulfill this Commandment of ourselves, Christ came and fulfilled it for us.

1 John 4:17-19
"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment.
But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. We love Him because He first loved us."

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Why do you prefer the letter of the law over the Spirit of the law? do you know the difference?

@BarneyFife You didn't answer my question, loved one!

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

GE, if you want to throw your boundless, Adventist-loathing weight on the side of the Sabbath question that reduces it to a cruel joke instead of a divine precept

The <boundless weight> of SCRIPTURE-evidence <on the side of the Sabbath question> of the Seventh Day Sabbath being the <divine precept> that it is in Scripture, I hereby with great confidence and boldness will reduce to these few words: The Lord's Day Sabbath is The Lord's Day Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD BY CAUSE, PURPOSE AND REASON AND SENSE OF, THAT "GOD RAISED CHRIST FROM THE DEAD ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES THE THIRD DAY, THE DAY AFTER THE PREPARATION, THE SABBATH --- WHAT GENESIS 3:8 ESTABLISHES WAS GOD'S TRUTH FROM THE BEGINNING.

 

[BarneyFife]

You're the one who does NOT respect Scripture's literal meaning. Instead for you, man's dividing Scripture into chapters is the limit literal interpretation goes, whether TRUE, CHRIST meaning continuous over Textual divisions or not. To you, the fact that Genesis 2 is the history of the Sixth Day of creation and the fall, and that 3:8 is the "evening cool of day" START of the Seventh Day of the creation-week Sabbath Day, is a contradiction with <divine> SDA <insight>.

And you apparently appropriated this <divine insight> of the SDA to spin this diabolic FALSE accusation against me of <urg(ing) that Jesus was our Sabbath all along>. God does not sleep.

As for the rest of your post, it is pathetically off-topic and muddled with anything just not WITH SCRIPTURE THAT The Lord's Day Sabbath is The Lord's Day Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD BY CAUSE, PURPOSE AND REASON AND SENSE OF, THAT "GOD RAISED CHRIST FROM THE DEAD ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES THE THIRD DAY, THE DAY AFTER THE PREPARATION, THE SABBATH --- WHAT GENESIS 3:8 ESTABLISHES WAS GOD'S TRUTH FROM THE BEGINNING.

My position is explained at length in the post you quoted but, since you evidently, grossly misinterpreted it, did not read carefully enough, GE.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

 

[1stCenturyLady]

@BarneyFife

Are you ignoring me?

Barn, keeping the Spirit of the Sabbath makes it the most important commandment of the New Covenant. It is something you must understand and do. We are no longer under the law but the Spirit. Remember Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." So keeping the letter of the law will get you no brownie points with God. Can you see now why it is so important to know and do the Spirit of the Sabbath?

This is for Christians: Read 1 John 3:23-24
23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Those are the New Covenant commandments, that are not listed in the Ten Commandments, the Law. That is the law spoken of in Romans 7:6 6 But now we have been delivered from the LAW having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Barn, Romans 7 is NOT about ceremonial laws, but the laws for sinners, the Ten Commandments. Romans 7:7 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”
But our liberty letsus attend church any day of the week you like, including Saturday. There is no new law to keep Sunday, because that would also have to be kept by the letter of the law. But I would do Saturday if I were you, otherwise you would be going against your conscience right now.

Just as keeping the Sabbath Day was the sign of the Commandments, those in the New Covenant who keep the laws of Jesus listed in 1 John 1:23-24 ABIDE IN JESUS, AND HE IN US. The abiding is our sabbath rest in the Lord of the Sabbath. If we do not abide in Jesus, we do not belong to him. Understand?

 

[BarneyFife]

Are you ignoring me?

Absolutely not, Sis. I'm just a bit swamped at the moment, and your comments are deeply appreciated and will get a thorough, private reply just as quick as I can. I have a couple of appointments today and an overnight hospital stay tonight. Nothing serious, though, really.

Love you, Sis.

 

[BarneyFife]

So keeping the letter of the law will get you no brownie points with God.

Linda, what makes you think I'd be interested in brownie points? That's really puzzling to me.

 

[mailmandan]

The Sabbath was a covenant God made with the nation of Israel only. The church has entered into Sabbath rest and we have no command to set aside a specific day.

Amen! Exodus 31:16 - Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.

In Deuteronomy 5, Moses restates the 10 Commandments to the next generation of Israelites. Here, after commanding Sabbath observance in verses 12–14, Moses gives the reason the Sabbath was given to the nation Israel: “Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore, the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.” (Deuteronomy 5:15)

So sabbath keeping (with all its rules and regulations) was part of a covenant with Israel (Exodus 16:23, 29; 31:12-18; 35:1-3; Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3, 32; Numbers 15:32-36; 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13; Amos 8:5; Nehemiah 10:31) that is not binding on Christians under the new covenant. (Colossians 2:16-17)

Hebrews 4:9 - So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. (NASB) Notice that the Greek word "sabbatismos" here is used no where else in the Bible.

W. E. Vine, Greek Dictionary points out:

Sabbath rest (4520) (sabbatismos from sabbatízo = keep the Sabbath) literally means a keeping of a sabbath or a keeping of days of rest. It is used in this passage not in the literal sense (meaning to keep a specific day, the "Sabbath" day) but to describe a period of rest for God’s people which is modeled after and is a fulfillment of the traditional Sabbath.

SABBATISMOS a Sabbath-keeping, is used in Heb. 4:9, R.V., "a Sabbath rest," A.V. marg., "a keeping of a Sabbath" (akin to sabbatizoµ, to keep the Sabbath, used, e.g., in Ex. 16:30, not in the N.T.); here the Sabbath-keeping is the perpetual Sabbath rest to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Law.

Because this Sabbath rest is the rest of God Himself, its full fruition is yet future, though believers now enter into it. In whatever way they enter into divine “rest,” that which they enjoy is involved in an indissoluble relation with God. (Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words)

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[BarneyFife]

Exodus 31:16 - Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.

In Deuteronomy 5, Moses restates the 10 Commandments to the next generation of Israelites. Here, after commanding Sabbath observance in verses 12–14, Moses gives the reason the Sabbath was given to the nation Israel: “Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore, the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.” (Deuteronomy 5:15)

Exodus 31
16 Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.

Deuteronomy 5
15 And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

There—that's better.

No distracting boldface to distract from words like "perpetual," "forever," and "for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed," or to suggest that there was only one reason the Sabbath was given to man, as both Exodus 20 and 31 make very clear.

So sabbath keeping (with all its rules and regulations) was part of a covenant with Israel (Exodus 16:23, 29; 31:12-18; 35:1-3; Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3, 32; Numbers 15:32-36; 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13; Amos 8:5; Nehemiah 10:31) that is not binding on Christians under the new covenant. (Colossians 2:16-17)

Problem is, these are just the half-true words of man mixed in with some Scripture that has to be interpreted in direct contradiction with other Scripture to be considered (in)conclusive evidence of the abrogation of the literal reading of the 4th commandment.

Hebrews 4:9 - So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. (NASB) Notice that the Greek word "sabbatismos" here is used no where else in the Bible.

Ah, a loophole! Now we don't have any pesky cross-references to get in the way of doing a Sabbathectomy on the law of God!

Sabbath rest (4520) (sabbatismos from sabbatízo = keep the Sabbath) literally means a keeping of a sabbath or a keeping of days of rest. It is used in this passage not in the literal sense (meaning to keep a specific day, the "Sabbath" day) but to describe a period of rest for God’s people which is modeled after and is a fulfillment of the traditional Sabbath.

SABBATISMOS a Sabbath-keeping, is used in Heb. 4:9, R.V., "a Sabbath rest," A.V. marg., "a keeping of a Sabbath" (akin to sabbatizoµ, to keep the Sabbath, used, e.g., in Ex. 16:30, not in the N.T.); here the Sabbath-keeping is the perpetual Sabbath rest to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Law.

Because this Sabbath rest is the rest of God Himself, its full fruition is yet future, though believers now enter into it. In whatever way they enter into divine “rest,” that which they enjoy is involved in an indissoluble relation with God. (Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words)

Too bad good old Dr. Vine wasn't inspired like the writers of the Bible were.

 

[BarneyFife]

You know, it's funny(peculiar)...

Colossians 2 is held up to extract the Sabbath from the Christian's responsibility, but it comes back in Hebrews 4. Of course, you could say that the day is specified in Colossians 2 but, then, it also is in Hebrews 4, isn't it? And if it meant that the day was no longer necessary to observe, there would have been a social and cultural upheaval in Palestine, for which we have no record—not even disputed ones. And, of course, before about 30 years ago, this Sabbath-decrying alternate universe in which I now find myself didn't even exist. No Christian denied the need for weekly rest and worship. Not one. At least, no one has ever shown me the slightest bit of even the lousiest evidence of one. I'm just trying to wrap my head around all of this, folks.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Problem is, these are just the half-true words of man mixed in with some Scripture that has to be interpreted in direct contradiction with other Scripture to be considered (in)conclusive evidence of the abrogation of the literal reading of the 4th commandment.

No they are whole true words. Teh ten commandments were given to Israel as a nation alone! they are part of the entire Mosaic Law. Man made the sections (moral, civil, ceremonial)

there is no command for the church to keep the Sabbath. That is only derived by people allegorizing the Scriptures and making the church teh "New Israel" which we are not! Paul condemned the Galatians for keeping the Sabbaths (as holy days)

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Amen! Exodus 31:16 - Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.

In Deuteronomy 5, Moses restates the 10 Commandments to the next generation of Israelites. Here, after commanding Sabbath observance in verses 12–14, Moses gives the reason the Sabbath was given to the nation Israel: “Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore, the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.” (Deuteronomy 5:15)

So sabbath keeping (with all its rules and regulations) was part of a covenant with Israel (Exodus 16:23, 29; 31:12-18; 35:1-3; Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3, 32; Numbers 15:32-36; 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13; Amos 8:5; Nehemiah 10:31) that is not binding on Christians under the new covenant. (Colossians 2:16-17)

Hebrews 4:9 - So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. (NASB) Notice that the Greek word "sabbatismos" here is used no where else in the Bible.

W. E. Vine, Greek Dictionary points out:

Sabbath rest (4520) (sabbatismos from sabbatízo = keep the Sabbath) literally means a keeping of a sabbath or a keeping of days of rest. It is used in this passage not in the literal sense (meaning to keep a specific day, the "Sabbath" day) but to describe a period of rest for God’s people which is modeled after and is a fulfillment of the traditional Sabbath.

SABBATISMOS a Sabbath-keeping, is used in Heb. 4:9, R.V., "a Sabbath rest," A.V. marg., "a keeping of a Sabbath" (akin to sabbatizoµ, to keep the Sabbath, used, e.g., in Ex. 16:30, not in the N.T.); here the Sabbath-keeping is the perpetual Sabbath rest to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Law.

Because this Sabbath rest is the rest of God Himself, its full fruition is yet future, though believers now enter into it. In whatever way they enter into divine “rest,” that which they enjoy is involved in an indissoluble relation with God. (Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words)

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The sad reality is this: As long as people will hold to covenant theology with its allegorical method of hermeneutics, there will always be those who twist the commands God gave to the Jews and seek to make them apply to the church as well. Of the 613 commands God gave to Moses on the mount, only 9 are carried forward to the church.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Linda, what makes you think I'd be interested in brownie points? That's really puzzling to me.

Not you in particular, dear heart, as you didn't mention believing not keeping the letter of the law on the Sabbath day is linked to the mark of the beast. Therefore, meaning keeping the letter of that law would give that person brownie points in God's eyes. You obeying your heart would. But so would a Sunday keeper obeying their heart. Sunday has nothing to do with anything, certainly not the mark of the beast. Sunday keepers do not worship the sun, anymore than a Sabbath keeper is really worshipping Saturn. That would be judgmental on those who "esteem everyday alike." I've already told you, in my eyes, you keeping the day is right for you; for you to do otherwise right now would be sin. What I'm saying, which I haven't gotten an answer on that I can recall, what do you believe to be the "Spirit" of the Sabbath law? To me it is the most important" Spirit of the law" commandment in existence, and I as your friend need for you to KEEP the Spirit of the law, as well as the letter of that law. You may be already, but you haven't told me for me to calm down about this.

Have a pleasant stay in the hospital. Sleep study, maybe? Glad it isn't serious.