Is the Sabbath a 'test of loyalty'?

[amigo de christo]

That's because it was only taught in the first century by the apostles and Jesus, not since.

COME YE UNTO ME ALL YOU WHO DO LABOR AND ARE WEARY and YE SHALL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS .
WELL if JESUS and the apostels taught anything , WE OUGHT TO HEED AND DO IT .
just a friendly reminder . Now let all that has breath praise and thank the glorious LORD .

 

[amigo de christo]

@1stCenturyLady, this is not entirely true if you count my original conversion at age 8.

Hey barney i want to remind us all of something .
Let us return to genesis and SEE the fall of man , HOW it happened , WHY it happened .
GOD warned adam in the day you eat thereof ye shall surely die . NOT TO EAT of that tree .
Along comes the serpent and says otherwise , OH YE SURELY shall not die .
THEY CHOSE TO BELIEVE THE SERPENT . BUT GOD WAS RIGHT , DEATH CAME UPON ALL EVER SINCE
in that all have sinned .
So the moral of that reminder is this . IF GOD SAYS SOMETHING BELIEVE IT , DO IT and dont heed the serpent
who tries to say OTHERWISE .
SO lets not buy into this love of the world which says
OH , surely ye shall not perish if you dont beleive in JESUS .
CAUSE GOD SAID SO < JESUS SAID SO . So lets believe GOD and not man . JUST a friendly reminder .
WE may now return to the topic at hand .
OH one more reminder .
FAITH .
GOD SAID , ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD , ABRAHAM OBEYED GOD . FAITH .
Now who we gonna beleive , men or GOD , men or CHRIST . exactly .

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Since I was a very young lad, I've always found Linda Darnell to be just distractingly beautiful. I'm quite glad I never met her. I'm sure I would have made quite a fool of myself.



Well, that is good to know! And I'm not being facetious, either.



That's also admirable. But I confess, I don't boil down soteriology to as many fine points as most folks around these parts do, Sis. So this might be a discussion all unto itself, but we'll see, okay?



This point comes up a few times in your post, so we'll come back to it, if that's all right.



I seldom get offended, and this definitely isn't one of those times.



Not sure whether you mean new birth in the Spirit or Spirit of the Sabbath but bear with me.



I'm not sure how you can determine that I keep the letter. These things get over-complicated very easily for me.

And there's that SotS, again. Hold on.



Getting there, Sis.



On the other hand, when folks invoke the "semantics" claim, I've found that something is often being over-simplified. It is not important for me to understand what keeping the 5th commandment involves for you. But it is extremely important for me to examine the way I treat my parents and other authority figures that God in His providence has put over me. The 5th commandment also enjoins upon me the necessity of taking great care in the way I relate to those who might have been entrusted by God to my care and responsibility. You might call this a sampling of the "Spirit Of Parental Honor," so to speak. For if we believe that he that offends in one point, is guilty of all, then they all must be of at least somewhat equal import. But I'm getting ahead of myself.



Well, then, it might be to your dismay to learn that that has not been my experience, that I can recall.

My perception of my experience is that I pray once a day, especially, that God would forgive my sins of the previous day and change me so that I might not sin at all and that I might think, say, and do only those things that will tend to draw others closer to His Son, at least until I can make that daily request again. I pray determinedly at least twice a day, preferably more, besides incidental prayer.

Along the way of my walk with God, I have had watershed moments when it has been clear to me that God has made a distinct stride in my attachment to and understanding of His lovely character, especially in Christ.

But I have no recollection of a point at which I was suddenly aware of some profound once-in-a-lifetime connection to Him.

But I do have times when I am keenly aware of emerging and past situations of how patient He's been with me and how wonderful it is that while I was yet without strength, yet a sinner, nay, yet an enemy of God, His Son's life was given for me as though I were the only person who ever lived, and when he said "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do," he especially meant me.

I can only hope this testimony doesn't disqualify me from God's grace, somehow.



I guess this is sort of addressed directly above, Sis.



No, it is a long-standing, somewhat controversial subset of Adventist doctrine.




Not in the slightest. I was just briefly stating my own understanding of what I believe to be true regarding LGT.


Couldn't agree more, Sis! Now, define "based on"—a-a-and GO



Well, that's kind of you to say, Sis, but I really just want to be as unlikely as possible to be misunderstood. It's so hard nowadays, you know?


I suspect that you understand correctly in some sense, at least. Because speaking of basing our beliefs on Scripture, I can find no direct connection between the Holy Spirit and the Sabbath therein.

I'm sure I'll get all kinds of heat for this from onlookers, but the only connections that come to mind at least immediately between the Holy Spirit and a specific commandment are of the 8th and the 9th in Acts 5.

In Hebrews 3 and 4 the rest of Canaan is definitely likened to the rest of the new heavens and earth and of the freedom from sin as found in Jesus but I've been exposed to the claim that the mention of the Sabbath in ch. 4 relegates the 4th commandment to some kind of abstract symbol, but I just don't find a preponderance of evidence from Scripture as a whole to support that theory.

I understand that some folks feel very strongly about this abstract Sabbath-keeping theory, but I cannot conscientiously surrender my view of the situation without better cause than that which I've heretofore been offered, and I've seen nothing novel in that respect for many, many years.

Your serve, Sis.

No more questions, I'll just show you, okay?

John 3:7-8
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Why was the Ten Commandments given?
Galatians 3:19
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made

The Ten Commandment was to guard sinners UNTIL we were born again of the Spirit by Jesus. This happened to no one, even the apostles until the Day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came down on them. Acts 1:8 "But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

Romans 7:6-7
6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”
This means we are no longer under the Ten Commandments, not ceremonial laws as your may have thought. But why?

Romans 6:6-7, 14, 22
knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

Verse 22 above is what happens when we are born again of the Spirit. We no longer have to struggle to not sin in order to be righteous. We must be filled with the power of the Holy Spirit. I never learned this in SDA, in fact, I didn't receive the Holy Spirit and actually felt the sin nature leave my body! It was a heaviness that lifted off of me, and I no longer had any desire to sin. As you see above in Galatians 3:19, the law was given to curb sin. But we are freed from the law Romans 7:6 when we no longer need it to show us our sin, because sin is gone. How else would this next verse make sense?

1 John 3:9
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Barn, we have not been left lawless. Seeing as we are born again of the Spirit, and are under the laws of Jesus, we have new commandments. Verse 24 is the Spirit of the Sabbath and where we obtain our rest. ABIDING IN JESUS

1 John 3:23-24
23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments (above) abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, (1 John 3:23) just as I have kept My Father’s commandments (Exodus 20) and abide in His love.

John 15: 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

cc: @CadyandZoe

 

[BarneyFife]

Well as I do not do google for bible study, that is irrelavent to me.

Well, that's certainly commendable, Brother Ron, and at your stage of wisdom and maturity, I'd expect no less.

I have read Ex. 20 sans google for 49 years. I read it in context and know that those ten commandments written in stone are a ministry of death as Paul said in corinthians.

Well then, hopefully, you'll have little trouble recollecting roughly when, along those 49 years, you determined that the ten commandments are definitely only for the Jews. This is a watershed moment, Brother Ron.

There can be no doubt that the law brings about death and condemnation of some kind, but it's very peculiar to me that folks only want to play up the negative images of the law rather than the positive ones that even Paul himself points out, like in 1 Corinthians 7:19 and Romans 7 and 8 and Galatians 5:23, not to mention Psalms 19 and 119.

And how could the law that Paul says is "holy, just, and good" bring about the kind of death and condemnation that everyone seems so anxious to imply in these discussions? Try not to ignore or minimize this one in your reply, Brother Ron.

Thats funny, I knew of the Mosaic laws and how many, long before I even owned a computer, never mind google.

And I saw Bigfoot on Leanord Nimoy's "In Search Of" back in '77 but that never amounted to much, either. And the "613" commands of the Mitzvot didn't all come from Sinai—not by a long shot.

Well teh ten instone which minister death are part and parcel of the 613. and they were given to Israel as a people alone. And ot teh gentile who chose to live in the land of Israel.

Not according to Jesus. He gave some very clear, in-depth instructions as to how the law was to be kept. Of course, He also made it clear that no one had the power to keep them without a change of heart.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It has to do with what Paul meant by works. He was talking against the physical works of Judaism, like circumcision, feast days, Sabbath days and years, and foods.

What does works mean to you and Ron? The reason why I said that what Ron said could be twisted is because of the notion that to stop morally sinning is a work, and we are not saved by not sinning. That would be a doctrine of demons. Because a born again Christian does not commit moral sins.

I agree with you and our Apostle Paul that we are justified by faith apart from the works of the law. You probably already know this, but in general, we should try to remember that Paul was speaking about works "of the law" as you said. The slogan we got from the Reformation was "faith alone" but we often need to tease this out, realizing that these two words only hint at a much larger topic.

And so, I believe, the central question in this thread is whether keeping the Sabbath day is among the "works" of which Paul spoke. If so, then keeping the Sabbath day can't be a test of loyalty in the end as some believe.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I agree with you and our Apostle Paul that we are justified by faith apart from the works of the law. You probably already know this, but in general, we should try to remember that Paul was speaking about works "of the law" as you said. The slogan we got from the Reformation was "faith alone" but we often need to tease this out, realizing that these two words only hint at a much larger topic.

And so, I believe, the central question in this thread is whether keeping the Sabbath day is among the "works" of which Paul spoke. If so, then keeping the Sabbath day can't be a test of loyalty in the end as some believe.

Right, it can't. But we have liberty to go to church (assemble yourself together Heb. 10:25) on the old Sabbath day, or on Sunday a holy tradition, not law. If it is a matter of conscience - OBEY YOUR CONSCIENCE! After all, that is also where the laws are now written; called our heart.

P. S. Be careful of anything that came out of the Reformation. Faith alone is not all there is. We must be born again of the Spirit. That is not automatic or a theological position, it is a real experience. We must be filled with the Holy Spirit. I is becoming born of God so you cannot sin. 1 John 3:9, Acts 1:8.

 

[BarneyFife]

No more questions, I'll just show you, okay?

John 3:7-8
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Why was the Ten Commandments given?
Galatians 3:19
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made

The Ten Commandment was to guard sinners UNTIL we were born again of the Spirit by Jesus. This happened to no one, even the apostles until the Day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came down on them. Acts 1:8 "But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

Romans 7:6-7
6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”
This means we are no longer under the Ten Commandments, not ceremonial laws as your may have thought. But why?

Romans 6:6-7, 14, 22
knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

Verse 22 above is what happens when we are born again of the Spirit. We no longer have to struggle to not sin in order to be righteous. We must be filled with the power of the Holy Spirit. I never learned this in SDA, in fact, I didn't receive the Holy Spirit and actually felt the sin nature leave my body! It was a heaviness that lifted off of me, and I no longer had any desire to sin. As you see above in Galatians 3:19, the law was given to curb sin. But we are freed from the law Romans 7:6 when we no longer need it to show us our sin, because sin is gone. How else would this next verse make sense?

1 John 3:9
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Barn, we have not been left lawless. Seeing as we are born again of the Spirit, and are under the laws of Jesus, we have new commandments. Verse 24 is the Spirit of the Sabbath and where we obtain our rest. ABIDING IN JESUS

1 John 3:23-24
23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments (above) abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, (1 John 3:23) just as I have kept My Father’s commandments (Exodus 20) and abide in His love.

John 15: 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

cc: @CadyandZoe

So, since we're friends, we might be able to save some time and typing (at which I am not good) by my asking:

How honest do you want me to be about what you've shown me here, Sis?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

So, since we're friends, we might be able to save some time and typing (at which I am not good) by my asking:

How honest do you want me to be about what you've shown me here, Sis?

I'm not a child, so be honest.

Just, no sarcasm. Tell what you believe and why scripturally.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Nope, that can easily be twisted and has been turned into a doctrine of demons.

Think about it more and what Jesus said.

Don't need to. If you have a different view- lets hear it.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

There can be no doubt that the law brings about death and condemnation of some kind, but it's very peculiar to me that folks only want to play up the negative images of the law rather than the positive ones that even Paul himself points out, like in 1 Corinthians 7:19 and Romans 7 and 8 and Galatians 5:23, not to mention Psalms 19 and 119.

And how could the law that Paul says is "holy, just, and good" bring about the kind of death and condemnation that everyone seems so anxious to imply in these discussions? Try not to ignore or minimize this one in your reply, Brother Ron.

I recognize both the good and condemnation of the law.

I accept teh law as Paul said, it was a school master till we reached the age (salvation by faith through grace).

It kept Israel till faith should come. Now that faith is here we are no longer under the law for righteousness. We are now righteous because Jesus is our righteousness and we obey god as proof we are righteous, not to atrtain it.

And I saw Bigfoot on Leanord Nimoy's "In Search Of" back in '77 but that never amounted to much, either. And the "613" commands of the Mitzvot didn't all come from Sinai—not by a long shot.

Well pray tell, inform us where you think part of the Mosaic Law came from, if not from Sinai?

Not according to Jesus. He gave some very clear, in-depth instructions as to how the law was to be kept. Of course, He also made it clear that no one had the power to keep them without a change of heart.

Now remember the context of Jesus talk. It was to Israel! And as Jesus fulfilled the law, the law is fulfilled and rendered moot. Only 9 of the 613 have been carried over, but not the reasons why we keep them. that is a whole new reason.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Spiritual rest means we ceasde form trying to work for salvation as the law required and rest in the finished work of Jesus at the cross.

When we rest in the finished work of Jesus at the cross, what does that mean to us?

How does that change us, or does it?

How do we rest? Go to sleep?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

So, since we're friends, we might be able to save some time and typing (at which I am not good) by my asking:

How honest do you want me to be about what you've shown me here, Sis?

Was wondering if you are going to directly answer the Scriptures I used, or are you going to cut and paste so you don't have to type something, but its in general and totally unrelated to each point, and I'll have to do the dissecting.

Don't worry about it, I have more time than you do and can break it apart into reasonable chunks.

I'm excited to get your first submission...

 

[BarneyFife]

Was wondering if you are going to directly answer the Scriptures I used, or are you going to cut and paste so you don't have to type something, but its in general and totally unrelated to each point, and I'll have to do the dissecting.

Don't worry about it, I have more time than you do and can break it apart into reasonable chunks.

I'm excited to get your first submission...

I'll be honest; I've drafted a couple of replies and I hate both of them.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

ANSWER - go to thread Salvation in 7

DUH

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I'll be honest; I've drafted a couple of replies and I hate both of them.

Well, I'm holding my breath and turning blue! Hurry up!

Seeing as this is from you and not someone else's writing, use my scriptures and what I wrote and just answer them. Give me the first half or fourth and let me start.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

You need to chill dude! You are way too high strung. I take it you have not been taught sound biblical hermeneutics. Context in God saying that to Israel is critical.

Of course the God of Israel is my God, because He is God. there are scores of passages that declare God is the god of all. Now if you wish to know- the Mosaic Law of which the ten commandments were part of- Is for Israel alone.

None of the ten were carried over to eh church, but their purpose is vastly different, they are commands for the church and not part of the Mosaic Law for the church.

Bla bla bla prattle prattle prattle little star o how bright 'n lofty you think you are. Once there was an hyena, thought he'd challenge an hippopotamus; sneaked up on it from behind without a sound, matriarch and mates watching out of reach afar; they were older and knew what was coming.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Well show me an explicit verse like the ones saying the Sabbath was for Israel, and God declaring it for the church and I will gladly start observing Saturday as a Sabbath!

Are you SDA?

DUH

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

The Sabbath is God's gift to us. It was made for us. We were not made for the Sabbath. It's not a test. It's rest.

We we we were we were not us to us for us ... clearly, YOU'RE NOT ISRAEL OF GOD.

 

[ButterflyJones]

We we we were we were not us to us for us ... clearly, YOU'RE NOT ISRAEL OF GOD.

Oh, oh, my .

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

The Sabbath is God's gift to us. It was made for us. We were not made for the Sabbath. It's not a test. It's rest.

"The Sabbath was made for man"--, "for" him, meaning, the Sabbath was made to meet man's NEED for GRACE, meaning the Sabbath was made after man had sinned, which man did the very day before that God had created him on, "and it was the Sixth Day" of creation-week. The Sabbath was not <God's gift to us>, God's Grace by Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of OUR, SIN, was His <gift to us>--, His Gift "for man", sinner. THEREFORE "the Sabbath was made for MAN" The Son of Man Son of God, God The Son, to WORK the salvation of sinner-man, "ON THE SEVENTH DAY God made ALL, HIS, WORKS".
Arrogant man presumes God did REST for man to spurn His Holy Day --- you're mad.