Will you be caught up in the rapture or left-behind??

[PinSeeker]

PinSeeker: He will sit in judgment of all, and after the judgment, those who were raised to the resurrection of judgment will depart, and never be heard from or remembered again.

This is the finality that goes against the clear point of the thousand years.

Well, maybe what you apparently think the millennium to be, but that's a good thing. :) But as Jesus says in John 5:28-29, "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." And we see this play out graphically in a couple of different places, Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11-21:4. This will all happen in short order after the close of the millennium.

The point of the Second Coming is not to end creation, but to complete the task in current creation that Adam failed to do.

Well, to finally set right again the state of creation... But yes, Jesus, the second (final) Adam succeeds where Adam failed.

The Second Coming is not to fill up the earth with the church.

See above.

There are not enough redeemed to fill up the earth. 8 billion people do not fill up the earth. The earth is not overcrowded and overpopulated.

The number of the redeemed will be an innumerable multitude. As the stars of the heavens, as the grains of sand on the seashore.

The earth is just overrun with sin, decay, death, and corruption.

Sure. But when Jesus returns, and after the final Judgment, this will no longer be the case. I think we agree on that...

When sin and transgression are removed, all of creation will experience the change, not just in a spiritual connotation.

Absolutely!

Deceiving the nations is a pointless term though, if that is all Amil go by.

Hm... interesting. Do you mean you think "Amil" somehow make deception of the nations (and Satan's inability to do so at present) out to be a meaningless or pointless term/concept in understanding the millennium to be the present age? Because, my goodness, no... :)

Do Amil just limit Satan's deception to the corporate level, but Satan is not bound to deceive individuals? How does that make sense? A nation cannot be deceived unless individuals within that nation are deceived. A nation does not think on a corporate level. In this usage nation just means people from several different countries all on the edge of society... Jesus is judging individuals that make up those nations, not the whole nation on a corporate level. That may have had a different understanding in the first century, but today people are constantly moving from nation to nation. A nation is not a distinct ethnicity. It just means all the individuals are for the most part in agreement with each other.

Hmm, interesting. I would submit to you, Timtofly, that in most instances in Scripture, "nation" does not refer to a specific country or state. God told Abraham that He would make him a great nation, remember? I do very much agree that a nation is not a distinct ethnicity. Israel ~ God's Israel ~ is not made up of ethnic Jews only, but includes Gentiles; it is made up of all those who are in Christ.

Satan is bound to not be able to deceive any individual.

That's quite contrary to Revelation 20:2-3 ~ "And He seized... Satan, and bound him... so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended... So now you're equating "the nations" with individuals? Isn't that what you've been arguing against? I mean, as if I have been doing that, because I haven't, but you seem to be contradicting yourself, here Timtofly.

During the Millennium, it is still up to each individual to obey. But disobedience does not effect the whole nation, it is just instant death for the individual.

Agree. Except for the "instant death for the individual" thing... :) We who are in Christ still sin, but as John also says, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Even those who are not in Christ ~ unbelievers ~ are not instantly killed for sin, but they will eventually suffer the second death (which is not annihilation or non-existence)... if they are not at some point born again of the Spirit and placed in Christ.

When Satan is loosed it does not even say every individual in a nation will be deceived.

No, but again, you're thinking of nations in the wrong sense.

We just know Satan targets individuals that are farther away from Jerusalem, as those nations are the latest generations, the youngest of those living on the earth.

I don't think Satan really pays any attention to our maps, Timtofly. :)

But it seems Amil cannot grasp what it means to have no sin nor death and corruption on earth. They agree that Adam's dead corruptible flesh all gets cast into the LOF never to be heard from again, as far as we know.

They just don't accept Jesus is reigning on earth for a thousand years while perfect humans are making babies.

Right, because such is ridiculous. :) When Jesus comes back ~ after the millennium ~ all things will be made new ~ after the final Judgment, of course ~ and the Kingdom will be ushered in in its fullness... consummated, as it were... and eternity will begin. But Jesus is reigning now, Timtofly. We are not waiting for some literal 1000-year period in the future for Him to reign as King over God's Israel. He is your (and my) King, now. And more and more people are coming into His Kingdom every day; these are God's elect... this is what is happening over the course of the Millennium.

The concept eludes even most pre-mill as they expect sin and death to persevere throughout the Millennium. That is what happens now. Certainly not after Jesus removes all the wickedness from His kingdom. That is what the baptism of fire is for, when Peter points out that everything will be burnt up. All of Adam's dead corruptible flesh will either be redeemed or cast into the LOF. Sin will not enter the Millennium. Sin does not enter after Satan is loosed. Death is the last enemy destroyed, right after those heading to Jerusalem are consumed by fire, the last humans to choose Satan and death, with the excuse that Satan deceived them. Jesus returns creation to God, perfect, without sin, Satan, deceived people, death, and decay. Also subdued full of people despite those who were deceived no longer among them.

This is interesting... So you're post-mill, correct? Regardless, what you seem to be saying is that Jesus will reign as King in a future, literal 1000-year period. If so, then what happens after that 1000 years in which Jesus reigns? Like, then He... continues to reign as King? :) I'm being facetious with this, really... :) What I'm saying, and what any "Amill" worth his or her salt would say, is that Jesus is reigning now, not yet here on earth, but from heaven, during this "thousand years," God's millennium, which is symbolic ~ not a woodenly literal 1000-year period ~ symbolic of the fullness of God's time in bringing His Israel to completion. Then shall come Jesus's return, the final Judgment, and His eternal reign in the new heaven and new earth. This is what we read from Revelation 20:1 to Revelation 21:8.

Many Amil agree that burnt sacrifices ended at the Cross, yet expect Jesus to hand back creation as a burnt offering, with literally nothing on the earth, but death and destruction.

Um... no... LOL! I mean, yes, no sacrifice is needed now, since Jesus's sacrifice on the cross; that much is true for sure. The rest... I would just point out that God, in the first part of Revelation 21, says, "Behold, I am making all things new!" He does not say, "Behold, I am making all new things." :)

The Millennium is not for the spread of the Gospel.

Well, it's the time allotted for all of God's elect to be brought into Israel. It's the Gospel age. And we are somewhere in the midst of it, perhaps very near ~ even in our terms, because the time is always near to God ~ to the end, to Jesus's return.

It is to fill the earth under the rule of Jesus...

See I agree with this... but in a little different context than how you mean it, I think...

...to do what Adam did not do...

Well, to restore it to how it was before Adam did what he did.

Since the Cross, the door is not just through one nation where ethnicity was key, but the door to salvation is through every nation, the mountain that filled the whole earth.

Well, since Jesus's birth, really. He was born King. Right? :)

Grace and peace to you, Timtofly.

 

[Timtofly]

Well if you bother to read history, you will find Titus laid siege in 66 AD, left for a time and then returned and the legions sacked and destroyed the temple. that is fact.

That is not even the correct history. And you said to leave history out and go only with God's Word.

I read God's Word. If you think I am wrong, then you think God's Word is wrong. You are going by what humans have taught, so not sure why you are complaining about some human teaching me the wrong thing.

You don't even think God's Word is grammatically correct, and have changed Daniel 9 to make it say what you believe.

Satan is not in control of human government. He never has been. Not sure how you can manipulate symbolism and declare what you think as a literal fact. Satan may have been more out in the open and worshipped by people in the past, but certainly was not the ruler according to the book of Daniel. None of the kingdoms in Daniel were under the leadership of Satan. Satan had spiritual power over death and claimed bodies and souls as belonging to his domain called sheol. Even those of faith from the OT were captives in Satan's domain after physical death. You probably think they are still held as captives until the Second Coming.

Your attitude certainly is one of belittling other Christians for their belief which does not come from god.

You are the one who keeps saying I am wrong. I am just pointing out what the Bible says.

 

[[email protected]]

And why is your opinion more authoritative than what you call my opinion?

Show me in Scripture where God said He would have a big slaughter of Jews ony once. YOU highlighted it and made it bold large print- so show me the verses!

And your sinful attempt at twisting my words is a shame on your writings. I do not demand more bloody violence on Israel! But the bible calls for it and it shall be. I never commented on my feelings on this verse which must still come to pass:

Zechariah 13:8-9​

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King James Version​

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8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Ezekiel 20:33-38​

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King James Version​

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33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:
34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.
37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:
38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

Neither of these prophecies have come to pass since god inspired both the utter them, so they are yet to come. If you do not like "my bloody demand", blame God and His Word, I just reported what He said!

Very curious answer on your part - except for your judgmental religious slurs. If you can't be right, must you resort to juvenile insults? You must be very popular at Bible study groups.

I find two references in the gospels of Mark (13:19) and Matthew (24:21) which seem to agree with the two you provided from Ezekiel and Zachariah. A great tribulation is to be suffered by Jews, (future for the prophets & Jesus). It's defined as a tribulation unparalleled in their history and NEVER TO BE REPEATED.

It's an historic fact that two-thirds of European Jewry were murdered during the Holocaust.
It's not an opinion of mine or anyone else. IT'S A FACT.

This terrible period in human history as well as Jewish history is generally ignored by non-Jews, especially American evangelicals who are enamored of their myths and self-generated legends rather than God, the Bible or humanity itself. They have been manipulated and indoctrinated and are completely incapable of comprehending any other suggestion, point of view or proofs that contradict their favorite fictions, which are not at all related to facts - Biblical or otherwise.

The horror and death of six million innocent people doesn't seem to bother ANY church type. Indeed they cry for more Jewish blood to be spilled so as to fulfill their Nazi fantasies for extermination of the Jewish race.

Something awful happened 1938-1945, something that agrees completely with the predictions of Daniel, Jeremiah, Jesus and as quoted above Zechariah & Ezekiel. It was so terrible that Jews cannot and will not forget it. It has left a scar so deep and wide that they cannot appreciate history or the future of Yisrael without considering it. Despite this open sore in the heart of Jews everywhere church types flatly refuse to acknowledge its importance Biblically or historically. This is the essence of racist hatred and bigotry.

I made a statement earlier that American evangelicals give evidence of systemic antisemitism. Indeed the very mention of Jewish tradition and LAW being the foundation for Christian doctrine is antithetical to them. They despise anything Jewish including Jewish tradition, which explains much of the New Testament. Consequently the meaning of the gospel has been betrayed by them and almost completely forgotten.

Many theologians of the late 20th century complained that protestantism had an intrinsic tendency for self-destruction. The button has been pressed, the chain reaction has been instigated and now at the end of the first quarter of the 21st century we are witness to the despoiling of Christendom. There is no longer any hope in their religion because they have denied the gospel and betrayed their own God. The proof in this is their attitude toward the Jew.

Some seem to react feverishly to my words complaining as they do that what I write is opinion only. I have diligently sought to present the truth of things as they are and in some cases attempt to explain why they are as they are. If bigots refuse to even try to understand or to ask intelligent questions it isn't my fault. Insults and petty judgments are all they can muster because they are so illiterate they cannot do otherwise.

The pharisees of Jesus' day refused to understand their own scripture even as American evangelicals do today.
The pharisees of Jesus' day created their own traditions to explain who and what they are - even as evangelicals do today.
Were they right? Sometimes they were, but in critical areas they weren't - they aren't.
Why?
Because the pharisees did not understand the sequence of events depicted in scripture and they refused to accept the evidence of history before their eyes - EVEN AS evangelicals do today.

The TRIBULATION IS OVER. It happened as predicted. Sadly, European Jewry never recovered. There will be no 'next time' as many false prophets declare because most of the Jews in Europe are already dead. Those that are left are making aliyah even as we write and read. The 'good christians' of Europe are driving them out.

The sequence of events is the key to prophetic interpretation.

False tradition (Jew & non-Jew) speaks to false sequences. As a result the pharisees two thousand years ago refused to accept Jesus when He stood right in front of them. Many do it today, except these types wear crosses and the Star of David.

Jesus is coming.

Everybody both Jew and non-Jew expect it, but His arrival is going to surprise everybody because everybody has deliberately blinded themselves to the sequence of events. <--- THIS IS my opinion.

Buy it or flush it, the choice is yours, but please refrain from your bigoted slurs and condemnations when you do. It may be typical for your religion, but it isn't socially acceptable to anyone else, certainly not me.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Timtofly]

That's quite contrary to Revelation 20:2-3 ~ "And He seized... Satan, and bound him... so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended... So now you're equating "the nations" with individuals? Isn't that what you've been arguing against? I mean, as if I have been doing that, because I haven't, but you seem to be contradicting yourself, here Timtofly.

On one hand you point out that nation is not an ethnicity, but made up of diverse individuals, then you turn around and say nation is not refering to individuals. I clearly stated that Satan deceives individuals, not corporate nations. This nation you recognize as the church is only a nation because of individual humans.

So Satan bound to not deceieve the nations is bound not to decieve every individual in multiple nations. Not that Satan can decieve a corporate idea termed nation. And the term nation means they are physically alive, not dead. There are no nations in the grave.

Matthew 25:31 is not a judgment of resurrected souls, just like Satan is not bound to decieve those already physically dead.

The hour of resurrection already happened at the Cross when the entire OT church body left sheol and physically entered Paradise in heaven.

The Second Coming is not the final judgment. It is is the final harvest of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The millennium is Jesus as King physically on the earth, because the point of the Second Coming is the same as the First Coming, in that Jesus was physically on the earth.

Perhaps look at is this way?

Jesus was still the Messiah for thousands of years, but not physically on the earth. Then Jesus came as the physical Messiah and left again. Jesus has been King since He left, but not physically on earth. At the Second Coming He will be physically on the earth over a kingdom no longer made up of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, where sin and transgression no longer exist.

Just like the OT economy was done away with at the first coming, so will all of Adam's punishment be done away with at the Second Coming. Only then will Satan be bound per Revelation 20, because Revelation 20 is after the removal of Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

You say Satan was bound to allow the spread of the Gospel, at least at first, I thought that was your point. Explain to me how Satan can currently or 2,000 years ago decieve nations that have already been decieved since Adam disobeyed God? Clearly deception has never been fully removed. If Satan were loosed now, he would not be able to decieve any one to "march against the church", as some Amil put it. Humans already think the church should be destroyed, as it stands beteeen them and the sin they naturally desire. That would not be a deception, they would welcome a champion for their cause.

The deception that brought about Adam's death will not be removed until Adam's death, and the punishment of sin entering the world is removed. Satan was not bound to allow the spread of the Gospel. Satan will be bound so he can not deceive any nation like he deceieved Eve in the Garden of Eden, a literal nation of not that many people. Which brings us to the point that the Second Coming is before deception is removed. Because Jesus is sitting in judgment removing those physically alive from Adam's dead corruptible flesh. This means those in this future millennium are no longer in Adam's dead corruptible flesh, thus no longer need the Gospel. Satan is not bound to prevent him from hindering people from hearing the Gospel. That is not the point even mentioned. Satan is bound to prevent him from deceiving people, which when he is loosed means declaring war on Jesus sitting on His throne of glory in Jerusalem.

The term nation means humans who are physically alive, yet to experience physical death. Nations are also individual people making up a common union, whether that union involves ethnicity or an ideological union. The word nation can also refer to a group of people who share a history or culture even if the group does not have a country of its own.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Very curious answer on your part - except for your judgmental religious slurs. If you can't be right, must you resort to juvenile insults? You must be very popular at Bible study groups.

Please point out in specifics what part of my writing is "judgmental religious slurs"?

I find two references in the gospels of Mark (13:19) and Matthew (24:21) which seem to agree with the two you provided from Ezekiel and Zachariah. A great tribulation is to be suffered by Jews, (future for the prophets & Jesus). It's defined as a tribulation unparalleled in their history and NEVER TO BE REPEATED.

The biblical tribulation is never to be repeated, but the holocaust does not fit Scripture so is not the tribulation. It was tragic and horrifying, but does not fit all the prophesies of the final tribulation Israel must endure before the nation accepts Jesus as Messiah.

Something awful happened 1938-1945, something that agrees completely with the predictions of Daniel, Jeremiah, Jesus and as quoted above Zechariah & Ezekiel. It was so terrible that Jews cannot and will not forget it. It has left a scar so deep and wide that they cannot appreciate history or the future of Yisrael without considering it. Despite this open sore in the heart of Jews everywhere church types flatly refuse to acknowledge its importance Biblically or historically. This is the essence of racist hatred and bigotry.

Yes something awful did happen between 1938-45, but sorry it does not fit all the prophesies of end time Israel. I acknowledge its importance and the fact that because of this tragedy, Israel was allowed to be a nation again, and Jews flocked to Israel. In the end times, Israel will flee the land and not go back to it!

I made a statement earlier that American evangelicals give evidence of systemic antisemitism. Indeed the very mention of Jewish tradition and LAW being the foundation for Christian doctrine is antithetical to them. They despise anything Jewish including Jewish tradition, which explains much of the New Testament. Consequently the meaning of the gospel has been betrayed by them and almost completely forgotten.

Many theologians of the late 20th century complained that protestantism had an intrinsic tendency for self-destruction. The button has been pressed, the chain reaction has been instigated and now at the end of the first quarter of the 21st century we are witness to the despoiling of Christendom. There is no longer any hope in their religion because they have denied the gospel and betrayed their own God. The proof in this is their attitude toward the Jew.

Well on all forums I have participated in over the years, I have been a staunch supporter of Israel! The 3 churches I have attended over my 49 years of walking with God also have been strong supporters of Israel, because they are th e covenanted people of God. So I cannot speak to all these churches you reference. I do not go searching out evils in other churches. If I find out and can do something, I do! Other wise there are evils in every local assembly, sect, and denomination. As long as people populate the churches we will have evil in the churches.

The TRIBULATION IS OVER. It happened as predicted. Sadly, European Jewry never recovered. There will be no 'next time' as many false prophets declare because most of the Jews in Europe are already dead. Those that are left are making aliyah even as we write and read. The 'good christians' of Europe are driving them out.

Sorry but you are wrong! Teh tribulation ends with the physical return of Jesus to rescue Israel from the campaign of Armagedón and defeats teh AC at Petra where Israel is hiding as per Matt. 24, and slays him and marches on Jerusalem and ascends the Mount of Olives.

Jesus is coming.

Everybody both Jew and non-Jew expect it, but His arrival is going to surprise everybody because everybody has deliberately blinded themselves to the sequence of events. <--- THIS IS my opinion.

Everyone is entitles to their opinion. but to call it Scripture when Scripture clearly and explicitly shows your opinion to be in error, requires one to tell you the truth.

But as for Scripture- we do not have a right to our own opinion of Scripture.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That is not even the correct history. And you said to leave history out and go only with God's Word.

We are done. YOu seek to revise historic fact.

Titus laid siege to Jerusalem in 66 Ad, broke off to see His father crowned Cesar, then came back and destroyed the temple (through his legions ) in 70 AD. Jews still lived in Jerusalem and Israel until 132-135 AD when the Jesus bar Kochba rebellion took place. that was when the diaspora was finally finished, Jerusalem plowed under and renamed Syria-Palestinia.

this is unquestioned historic fact.

Untilyou recognize this truth, this conversation is over.

 

[Timtofly]

We are done. YOu seek to revise historic fact.

Titus laid siege to Jerusalem in 66 Ad, broke off to see His father crowned Cesar, then came back and destroyed the temple (through his legions ) in 70 AD. Jews still lived in Jerusalem and Israel until 132-135 AD when the Jesus bar Kochba rebellion took place. that was when the diaspora was finally finished, Jerusalem plowed under and renamed Syria-Palestinia.

this is unquestioned historic fact.

Untilyou recognize this truth, this conversation is over.

You may want to recheck your sources. Titus came only in 70AD.

 

[[email protected]]

Please point out in specifics what part of my writing is "judgmental religious slurs"?

The biblical tribulation is never to be repeated, but the holocaust does not fit Scripture so is not the tribulation. It was tragic and horrifying, but does not fit all the prophesies of the final tribulation Israel must endure before the nation accepts Jesus as Messiah.

Yes something awful did happen between 1938-45, but sorry it does not fit all the prophesies of end time Israel. I acknowledge its importance and the fact that because of this tragedy, Israel was allowed to be a nation again, and Jews flocked to Israel. In the end times, Israel will flee the land and not go back to it!

Well on all forums I have participated in over the years, I have been a staunch supporter of Israel! The 3 churches I have attended over my 49 years of walking with God also have been strong supporters of Israel, because they are th e covenanted people of God. So I cannot speak to all these churches you reference. I do not go searching out evils in other churches. If I find out and can do something, I do! Other wise there are evils in every local assembly, sect, and denomination. As long as people populate the churches we will have evil in the churches.

Sorry but you are wrong! Teh tribulation ends with the physical return of Jesus to rescue Israel from the campaign of Armagedón and defeats teh AC at Petra where Israel is hiding as per Matt. 24, and slays him and marches on Jerusalem and ascends the Mount of Olives.

Everyone is entitles to their opinion. but to call it Scripture when Scripture clearly and explicitly shows your opinion to be in error, requires one to tell you the truth.

But as for Scripture- we do not have a right to our own opinion of Scripture.

I have been a staunch supporter of Israel! - You wrote. Yet you absolutely deny the role the Holocaust played in the formation of Israel as was predicted in Ezekiel 37. It's a logical impossibility to acknowledge both at the same time, yet you attempt to do both at the same time as you deny the suffering of Jews and what it means in THEIR history and Biblical prophecy. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see. Your bigoted opinion is noted here.

You claim to support Jews YET CALL THEM LIARS AT EVERY TURN, REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR HISTORY AND DENY THEIR LAW. This is called hypocrisy and it is epidemic in the church today.

THE MAJOR PROBLEM with evangelical protestants is their ABSOLUTE devotion to their doctrines and interpretations. I've written this before, but it's as if I was preaching to the pharisees - dressed in gentile clothing.

Evangelicals don't give a damn about God. They worship a false image of Him they've invented from YouTube speakers, religious novelizations and motivational books. They no longer seek to transmit the gospel message to a dying generation. Gone are the days of massive crusades and devout religious evangelists. Today we worship TV preachers who are among the richest men in the world. (*)

Evangelicals don't care about scripture. They have quite literally thrown the entire Tanakh into the garbage! The dust bin of their minds contains not the slightest appreciation of the LAW & prophets except those which agree with their false doctrines and pagan traditions. Bible studies are Biblical in name only. Most congregations REFUSE to attend groups that exclusively study scripture. Instead they attend social gatherings or religious book reviews. I have seen far too many of these.

Evangelicals don't care about real people. The subject of the Holocaust and its importance as The Great Tribulation (there is none other and it will not happen again) is a key example. JEWS CONSIDER IT to be Jeremiahs' Time of Jacob's Trouble! As I wrote earlier, church types CLAIM to embrace the Jews, but in reality deny each and every aspect of them and their lives - as you have done repeatedly.

It was Jews who died and it was Jews who always suffered AT THE HANDS OF THE CHURCH. The blood of six million dead is on the hands of the church because they supported the murder when it happened and deny it today.

Evangelicals only care about doctrines of demons. They forsake all else to support it and employ the tools of cancel culture to deny those who argue against them. They do NOT listen to sound advice, history, or the words of the Son of God WHO SAID IT WOULD ONLY HAPPEN ONCE.

PLEASE DO NOT quote your religious slogans and buzz words to me so as to support your antisemitic ideology. Joseph Goebbels did the same thing in a much more polished form. Neither he nor any church type pays the slightest attention to Biblical context.

If the words of Jesus don't mean anything to church types, what will? The answer is nothing at all. Being convinced of lies they refuse to even consider the words of truth. DID I INVENT HISTORY and carry it out? I did not, yet you continue to say I did by claiming my words are opinion, which they are not. This is absolute denial of historic fact so as to support lying dogma. EVERY TIME you run back to your dogma and never in the slightest degree acknowledge that YOUR sequence of events of the last days might be wrong. How do I arrive at this assumption? I arrive at it by examining history and the Tanakh - which American protestants refuse to do.

Indeed the gospel itself has been perverted into invisibility by these people BECAUSE they refuse to study the LAW and the prophets with a dispassionate eye. I once attended many churches, none of which preached the most basic aspects of the gospel. Church types are more interested in demonic lies than God's honest truth.

Thinking people realize the hypocritical games that evangelicals now play. Thinking people no longer believe the religious slogans and buzz words THAT EVEN THOSE WHO USE THEM MISUNDERSTAND. This is why the church is dying. This is why not even the leaders of this bankrupt religious franchise understand what is happening to them. The blind are leading the blind and all are falling into the ditch.

So go ahead and continue to reject my words. You have already committed yourself to a destiny that will never materialize.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
(*) Pat Robertson, founder of the 700 Club died with a personal wealth of over 100 million dollars. Kenneth Copeland, popular TV preacher, has personal wealth over 300 million dollars. These men are all about personal aggrandizement and fame. They get it by milking gullible protestant types who don't care about God, the Bible or anybody but themselves.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I have been a staunch supporter of Israel! - You wrote. Yet you absolutely deny the role the Holocaust played in the formation of Israel as was predicted in Ezekiel 37. It's a logical impossibility to acknowledge both at the same time, yet you attempt to do both at the same time as you deny the suffering of Jews and what it means in THEIR history and Biblical prophecy. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see. Your bigoted opinion is noted here.

Wrong again in attempting to read my mind! I have taught for decades that the holocaust was vital in Israel becoming a nation again. but as we did not talk about the holocaust and its role in forming Israel, I take it as another opportunity for you to hurl another ad-hominem.

You claim to support Jews YET CALL THEM LIARS AT EVERY TURN, REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR HISTORY AND DENY THEIR LAW. This is called hypocrisy and it is epidemic in the church today.

Okay you made this charge- now back it up or confess you are twisting my words way out of proportion.

THE MAJOR PROBLEM with evangelical protestants is their ABSOLUTE devotion to their doctrines and interpretations. I've written this before, but it's as if I was preaching to the pharisees - dressed in gentile clothing.

Does this mean you have no devotion to the doctrine you hold to ?

Evangelicals don't give a damn about God. They worship a false image of Him they've invented from YouTube speakers, religious novelizations and motivational books. They no longer seek to transmit the gospel message to a dying generation. Gone are the days of massive crusades and devout religious evangelists. Today we worship TV preachers who are among the richest men in the world. (*)

Well as I have not been appointed the worship police by God, I do not go about seeing how real or phony peoples worship is. I know I worship God according to Scripture.

Evangelicals don't care about scripture. They have quite literally thrown the entire Tanakh into the garbage! The dust bin of their minds contains not the slightest appreciation of the LAW & prophets except those which agree with their false doctrines and pagan traditions. Bible studies are Biblical in name only. Most congregations REFUSE to attend groups that exclusively study scripture. Instead they attend social gatherings or religious book reviews. I have seen far too many of these.

Once again I have not been appointed bible study police by god so I do nt know what other evangelicals do or do not do in their studies. I do know about the Bible Studies I teach.

But what do you mean by evangelicals throwing out the OT in to the garbage?

PLEASE DO NOT quote your religious slogans and buzz words to me so as to support your antisemitic ideology. Joseph Goebbels did the same thing in a much more polished form. Neither he nor any church type pays the slightest attention to Biblical context.

Now I call you out as a liar! You have formed false conclusions based on twisitng my words.

Until you repent and publicly apologize for lying about me and my beliefs- this is the last response from me. and if you do not recant, I will report you to the admin. I have only done that once before in many years, but your lying is egregious enough to push to get you banned for your lies!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You may want to recheck your sources. Titus came only in 70AD.

66 AD: Was the Great Jewish Revolt Against Rome a Preventable Tragedy?

The Great Revolt was the first major rebellion of the Jewish people against the Roman occupation of Judea. It lasted from 66 – 70 AD and resulted...

www.historyhit.com

read and learn!

titus was with his father Vespasian in Jerusalem when the rebellion broke out. He left with his father to see him crowned cesar and then returned and sacked Jerusalem. 70 Ad was when he returned.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I have been a staunch supporter of Israel! - You wrote. Yet you absolutely deny the role the Holocaust played in the formation of Israel as was predicted in Ezekiel 37. It's a logical impossibility to acknowledge both at the same time, yet you attempt to do both at the same time as you deny the suffering of Jews and what it means in THEIR history and Biblical prophecy. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see. Your bigoted opinion is noted here.

You claim to support Jews YET CALL THEM LIARS AT EVERY TURN, REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR HISTORY AND DENY THEIR LAW. This is called hypocrisy and it is epidemic in the church today.

THE MAJOR PROBLEM with evangelical protestants is their ABSOLUTE devotion to their doctrines and interpretations. I've written this before, but it's as if I was preaching to the pharisees - dressed in gentile clothing.

Evangelicals don't give a damn about God. They worship a false image of Him they've invented from YouTube speakers, religious novelizations and motivational books. They no longer seek to transmit the gospel message to a dying generation. Gone are the days of massive crusades and devout religious evangelists. Today we worship TV preachers who are among the richest men in the world. (*)

Evangelicals don't care about scripture. They have quite literally thrown the entire Tanakh into the garbage! The dust bin of their minds contains not the slightest appreciation of the LAW & prophets except those which agree with their false doctrines and pagan traditions. Bible studies are Biblical in name only. Most congregations REFUSE to attend groups that exclusively study scripture. Instead they attend social gatherings or religious book reviews. I have seen far too many of these.

Evangelicals don't care about real people. The subject of the Holocaust and its importance as The Great Tribulation (there is none other and it will not happen again) is a key example. JEWS CONSIDER IT to be Jeremiahs' Time of Jacob's Trouble! As I wrote earlier, church types CLAIM to embrace the Jews, but in reality deny each and every aspect of them and their lives - as you have done repeatedly.

It was Jews who died and it was Jews who always suffered AT THE HANDS OF THE CHURCH. The blood of six million dead is on the hands of the church because they supported the murder when it happened and deny it today.

Evangelicals only care about doctrines of demons. They forsake all else to support it and employ the tools of cancel culture to deny those who argue against them. They do NOT listen to sound advice, history, or the words of the Son of God WHO SAID IT WOULD ONLY HAPPEN ONCE.

PLEASE DO NOT quote your religious slogans and buzz words to me so as to support your antisemitic ideology. Joseph Goebbels did the same thing in a much more polished form. Neither he nor any church type pays the slightest attention to Biblical context.

If the words of Jesus don't mean anything to church types, what will? The answer is nothing at all. Being convinced of lies they refuse to even consider the words of truth. DID I INVENT HISTORY and carry it out? I did not, yet you continue to say I did by claiming my words are opinion, which they are not. This is absolute denial of historic fact so as to support lying dogma. EVERY TIME you run back to your dogma and never in the slightest degree acknowledge that YOUR sequence of events of the last days might be wrong. How do I arrive at this assumption? I arrive at it by examining history and the Tanakh - which American protestants refuse to do.

Indeed the gospel itself has been perverted into invisibility by these people BECAUSE they refuse to study the LAW and the prophets with a dispassionate eye. I once attended many churches, none of which preached the most basic aspects of the gospel. Church types are more interested in demonic lies than God's honest truth.

Thinking people realize the hypocritical games that evangelicals now play. Thinking people no longer believe the religious slogans and buzz words THAT EVEN THOSE WHO USE THEM MISUNDERSTAND. This is why the church is dying. This is why not even the leaders of this bankrupt religious franchise understand what is happening to them. The blind are leading the blind and all are falling into the ditch.

So go ahead and continue to reject my words. You have already committed yourself to a destiny that will never materialize.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
(*) Pat Robertson, founder of the 700 Club died with a personal wealth of over 100 million dollars. Kenneth Copeland, popular TV preacher, has personal wealth over 300 million dollars. These men are all about personal aggrandizement and fame. They get it by milking gullible protestant types who don't care about God, the Bible or anybody but themselves.

in your avatar you write you are of another faith. What faith or denomination do you belong to.

 

[[email protected]]

Wrong again in attempting to read my mind! I have taught for decades that the holocaust was vital in Israel becoming a nation again. but as we did not talk about the holocaust and its role in forming Israel, I take it as another opportunity for you to hurl another ad-hominem.

Okay you made this charge- now back it up or confess you are twisting my words way out of proportion.

Does this mean you have no devotion to the doctrine you hold to ?


Well as I have not been appointed the worship police by God, I do not go about seeing how real or phony peoples worship is. I know I worship God according to Scripture.

Once again I have not been appointed bible study police by god so I do nt know what other evangelicals do or do not do in their studies. I do know about the Bible Studies I teach.

But what do you mean by evangelicals throwing out the OT in to the garbage?

Now I call you out as a liar! You have formed false conclusions based on twisitng my words.

Until you repent and publicly apologize for lying about me and my beliefs- this is the last response from me. and if you do not recant, I will report you to the admin. I have only done that once before in many years, but your lying is egregious enough to push to get you banned for your lies!

Typical church type. Now you call me to repent.....against what SIN may I ask?

I didn't lie about you nor did I misrepresent the church. Let me be more specific. Biblical illiteracy and pride may be a better description of the affliction the church now suffers.

You have no idea how wrong you are, yet you vehemently deny anything I write. Again let me be specific regarding antisemitism in the church. Have you heard of the doctrine of Replacement Theology or Supersessionism? yes? no? Both are false doctrines of demons yet are embraced by the church without regard to scripture, history or the condition of their fellow man. This is WHY the church is dying, btw. The irony is that even church leaders don't know why....even though someone like me tells them....they are too PROUD to accept it. Indeed they are too proud to accept any criticism at all.

Research the doctrine of Replacement Theology if you've not heard of it (I'll bet you haven't.) Look it up! It lies at the heart and soul of church hatred of Jews and the kingdom of Christ. Try to tell a christian they're wrong about it and they can't defend their position logically or scripturally .... so they tell me I need to repent. That's very funny.

I have not named you personally in any post, but I have written in the second or third persons....meaning 'you' as plural or 'you' as third person church type. I haven't slandered anyone, but I fully expect you to represent me as such because you disagree.

In my Avatar I wrote 'another faith'. What is that to you, btw. What business is that of yours? Are YOU a member of the thought police? In my profile I'm listed as Messianic Karaite Jew. Look up the meaning of those words. Jesus was a type of Karaite Jew. Most all of the original people who came to believe that Jesus is God were Jews. Pagan non-Jews came in later to subvert the gospel....as they do to this day. The really funny thing is that you have no idea what I'm talking about, none at all. So...instead of asking intelligent questions to learn more YOU RESORT TO KNEE-JERK ACCUSATIONS AND THREATS. Typical reaction for churchy types these days.

In these days of the 21st century very few church types know what the gospel really is or how important it can be to one who bends the knee and bows the head to Y'shuah.

I know a great deal about churchy Bible studies having suffered much disappointment and back stabbing from those 'good people' over the years. If you teach a true Bible study, then I commend you for even getting the presentation off the ground. Most church types wouldn't touch the subject with a ten foot pole.

I hold two degrees in history and theology from accredited institutions (Bachelors' and Master's degrees respectively). What do you have - perfect attendance at Sunday School? I know whereof I speak, but I also know that church types are today so bigoted and PROUD of themselves they will NOT listen to or consider the voice of anyone who doesn't parrot their own lies back to them.

This is the nature of a lie in that those who are persuaded of it seldom will turn to the truth. This is the main reason Y'shuah was crucified two thousand years ago and why He is rejected today - even by the church.

Cancel culture is epidemic in America today - as you have threatened to do. When I was young it was proudly said, "I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." Apparently even among self-styled church types today this is no longer true.

Very sad. You won't consider a single thing I wrote will you? You don't need to repent to me because I am not god - as you seem to believe YOU ARE.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Timtofly]

66 AD: Was the Great Jewish Revolt Against Rome a Preventable Tragedy?

The Great Revolt was the first major rebellion of the Jewish people against the Roman occupation of Judea. It lasted from 66 – 70 AD and resulted...

www.historyhit.com

read and learn!

titus was with his father Vespasian in Jerusalem when the rebellion broke out. He left with his father to see him crowned cesar and then returned and sacked Jerusalem. 70 Ad was when he returned.

Well that was a rather concise, non specific source. Have you ever tried an Encyclopedia, instead of a he said, Josephus said, snippet article on an online website?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Typical church type. Now you call me to repent.....against what SIN may I ask?

I didn't lie about you nor did I misrepresent the church. Let me be more specific. Biblical illiteracy and pride may be a better description of the affliction the church now suffers.

You lied about my stance for Israel! You attempted to read my mind. You have made generalized accusations against me without even bother to seek what I believe- that is the sin of presumption!

You have no idea how wrong you are, yet you vehemently deny anything I write. Again let me be specific regarding antisemitism in the church. Have you heard of the doctrine of Replacement Theology or Supersessionism? yes? no? Both are false doctrines of demons yet are embraced by the church without regard to scripture, history or the condition of their fellow man. This is WHY the church is dying, btw. The irony is that even church leaders don't know why....even though someone like me tells them....they are too PROUD to accept it. Indeed they are too proud to accept any criticism at all.

Research the doctrine of Replacement Theology if you've not heard of it (I'll bet you haven't.) Look it up! It lies at the heart and soul of church hatred of Jews and the kingdom of Christ. Try to tell a christian they're wrong about it and they can't defend their position logically or scripturally .... so they tell me I need to repent. That's very funny.

Once again you make a presumptious false accusation! Not only do I know about supersessionism and replacement theology, but have taught against it for several decades! None of the churches I have belonged to ever held to replacement theology!

In my Avatar I wrote 'another faith'. What is that to you, btw. What business is that of yours? Are YOU a member of the thought police?

I was curious and not as member of the thought police. but given your acidic responses you seem to be the thought police and have used a broad brush and falsely accused many churches with your lies! I can list many churches that do not believe in what you sore bitterly condemn your fellow brethren of.

I know a great deal about churchy Bible studies having suffered much disappointment and back stabbing from those 'good people' over the years. If you teach a true Bible study, then I commend you for even getting the presentation off the ground. Most church types wouldn't touch the subject with a ten foot pole.

I have studied for over 3 decades under Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum. a karaite messianic Jew who holds multiple doctorates and speaks and writes in Hebrew and Koine Greek. And instead of responding in love as commanded by Saul Paul of Tarsus, you have lashed out in bitterness and hatred! This is sin.

I hold two degrees in history and theology from accredited institutions (Bachelors' and Master's degrees respectively). What do you have - perfect attendance at Sunday School? I know whereof I speak, but I also know that church types are today so bigoted and PROUD of themselves they will NOT listen to or consider the voice of anyone who doesn't parrot their own lies back to them.

I hold a bachelors and masters and was also one who developed a curriculum for a Bible Institute as well as teaching in it. As core curriculum, I used Dr. Fruchtenbaums come and see manuscripts as well as His 4 volume text -"Life of Yeshus the Messiah from a Hebrew Perspective.". Are you done patting your self on the back and running down your less taught brethren? You seem to be part of teh problem and not eh solution!

This is the nature of a lie in that those who are persuaded of it seldom will turn to the truth. This is the main reason Y'shuah was crucified two thousand years ago and why He is rejected today - even by the church.

No, He was crucified to pay for all of our sins. He did so in love and not bitterness.

Very sad. You won't consider a single thing I wrote will you? You don't need to repent to me because I am not god - as you seem to believe YOU ARE.

Once again throwing out false conclusions based on your bitter soul.

Cancel culture is epidemic in America today - as you have threatened to do. When I was young it was proudly said, "I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." Apparently even among self-styled church types today this is no longer true.

Well you seem intent of shouting down anyone who dares disagree with you by making false assumptions and taking a word and stretching to conform to your bitter concept of believers. II disagree with your spirit and your lack of willingness to seek out a persons beliefs and instead just throw out lies.

One last chance. I have reported you for your agressive lying. Next I will put you on ignore. You are only the second person I have reported on in all my years here, but your false witness, bitterness, and egregious lies and your unwillingness to recognize you have done so is a very serious matter.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Well that was a rather concise, non specific source. Have you ever tried an Encyclopedia, instead of a he said, Josephus said, snippet article on an online website?

Still fact whether it was short or not!

And let me ask you a question. You are here trying to teach people things. why should I accept you as a teacher ,which you seem to roundly condemn all them "church teachers", as opposed to those who I know have proved themselves faithful to god.

what makes you an authority in the word above all others?

They think they found what God was saying, as you have. what makes you better and more authoratative?

I also have been a teacher for over 35 years now in the Word of God. I believe I am right. I believe I have heard from god. I have compared teachers to the Word of God. but he difference between you and me is I don't believe I got a special revlation direct from God Like the Apostle Paul and seemingly you claim to have.

I also am willing to be proven wrong when someone shows me a better argument from Scripture and not like you present with all your allegorizing fo the word that was inspired.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Very sad. You won't consider a single thing I wrote will you? You don't need to repent to me because I am not god - as you seem to believe YOU ARE.

Have you decided to disappear?

 

[Timtofly]

Still fact whether it was short or not!

It has been pointed out, that there were 3 different incursions of Roman armies from 66 to 70 AD, and you still insist it was Titus 3 different times. You don't trust the established historical record, so you quote a 3rd party blog instead of an encyclopedia. You don't trust anything I post, obviously, that is why I asked you to check it out for yourself. Obviously you can find many opinions out there, some who will even agree with you, even if they cannot get the facts correct themselves.

Titus was not the prince mentioned in Daniel 9, and you refuse to accept the historical record and even Josephus' own writings on the topic.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It has been pointed out, that there were 3 different incursions of Roman armies from 66 to 70 AD, and you still insist it was Titus 3 different times. You don't trust the established historical record, so you quote a 3rd party blog instead of an encyclopedia. You don't trust anything I post, obviously, that is why I asked you to check it out for yourself. Obviously you can find many opinions out there, some who will even agree with you, even if they cannot get the facts correct themselves.

Titus was not the prince mentioned in Daniel 9, and you refuse to accept the historical record and even Josephus' own writings on the topic.

Do you want me to post from about a dozen sources both encyclopedias and biblical history records? Titus was there, left with His Father Vespasian so Vespasian could be crowned Cesar, and He returned to finish the job of destroying Jerusalem. Why you have an argument with that is beyond me. It is the historic record. Titus was just a regular General in Jerusalem in 66 Ad when the first Jewish revolt broke out.
When He left with his father so Ves[pasian would become Cesar, He returned as General of all the legions in Palestine. It was during this break from the first and sewcond revolts, that the Luke portion of the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled:

Luke 21:20-24

King James Version

​

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

It is agreed by many scholars that this is the time when Hebrews was written. Also it has been said that the Jewish Christians when they saw Jerusalem circled by the legions in 66 then the siege temporary lifted when Vespasian left- over 1 million fled across the Jordan to teh Syrian city of Pella to obey verse 21.

The Great Jewish Revolt of 66 CE

The Roman Empire in the early 1st century CE was often regarded as the perfect empire. The outstanding military prowess of the Romans was used to expand the empire, and once the territories were acceptably...

www.worldhistory.org

I know Titus is the not the prince of Dan. 9. that prince is a future prince who we call Antichrist.

Since you reject what is historic record that I know, why don't you post from the historic documents you hold that cause you to disagree with me.

And no I never insisted that Titus leading all three times- that is you jumping to false conclusions again.

 

[PinSeeker]

On one hand you point out that nation is not an ethnicity, but made up of diverse individuals, then you turn around and say nation is not refering to individuals. I clearly stated that Satan deceives individuals, not corporate nations. This nation you recognize as the church is only a nation because of individual humans.

So Satan bound to not deceieve the nations is bound not to decieve every individual in multiple nations. Not that Satan can decieve a corporate idea termed nation. And the term nation means they are physically alive, not dead. There are no nations in the grave.

Matthew 25:31 is not a judgment of resurrected souls, just like Satan is not bound to decieve those already physically dead.

The hour of resurrection already happened at the Cross when the entire OT church body left sheol and physically entered Paradise in heaven.

The Second Coming is not the final judgment. It is is the final harvest of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The millennium is Jesus as King physically on the earth, because the point of the Second Coming is the same as the First Coming, in that Jesus was physically on the earth.

Perhaps look at is this way?

Jesus was still the Messiah for thousands of years, but not physically on the earth. Then Jesus came as the physical Messiah and left again. Jesus has been King since He left, but not physically on earth. At the Second Coming He will be physically on the earth over a kingdom no longer made up of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, where sin and transgression no longer exist.

Just like the OT economy was done away with at the first coming, so will all of Adam's punishment be done away with at the Second Coming. Only then will Satan be bound per Revelation 20, because Revelation 20 is after the removal of Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

You say Satan was bound to allow the spread of the Gospel, at least at first, I thought that was your point. Explain to me how Satan can currently or 2,000 years ago decieve nations that have already been decieved since Adam disobeyed God? Clearly deception has never been fully removed. If Satan were loosed now, he would not be able to decieve any one to "march against the church", as some Amil put it. Humans already think the church should be destroyed, as it stands beteeen them and the sin they naturally desire. That would not be a deception, they would welcome a champion for their cause.

The deception that brought about Adam's death will not be removed until Adam's death, and the punishment of sin entering the world is removed. Satan was not bound to allow the spread of the Gospel. Satan will be bound so he can not deceive any nation like he deceieved Eve in the Garden of Eden, a literal nation of not that many people. Which brings us to the point that the Second Coming is before deception is removed. Because Jesus is sitting in judgment removing those physically alive from Adam's dead corruptible flesh. This means those in this future millennium are no longer in Adam's dead corruptible flesh, thus no longer need the Gospel. Satan is not bound to prevent him from hindering people from hearing the Gospel. That is not the point even mentioned. Satan is bound to prevent him from deceiving people, which when he is loosed means declaring war on Jesus sitting on His throne of glory in Jerusalem.

The term nation means humans who are physically alive, yet to experience physical death. Nations are also individual people making up a common union, whether that union involves ethnicity or an ideological union. The word nation can also refer to a group of people who share a history or culture even if the group does not have a country of its own.

:)

Grace and peace to you, Timmy. :)

 

[Timtofly]

Do you want me to post from about a dozen sources both encyclopedias and biblical history records? Titus was there, left with His Father Vespasian so Vespasian could be crowned Cesar, and He returned to finish the job of destroying Jerusalem. Why you have an argument with that is beyond me. It is the historic record. Titus was just a regular General in Jerusalem in 66 Ad when the first Jewish revolt broke out.
When He left with his father so Ves[pasian would become Cesar, He returned as General of all the legions in Palestine. It was during this break from the first and sewcond revolts, that the Luke portion of the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled:

Luke 21:20-24​

​

King James Version​

​

​

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

It is agreed by many scholars that this is the time when Hebrews was written. Also it has been said that the Jewish Christians when they saw Jerusalem circled by the legions in 66 then the siege temporary lifted when Vespasian left- over 1 million fled across the Jordan to teh Syrian city of Pella to obey verse 21.

The Great Jewish Revolt of 66 CE

The Roman Empire in the early 1st century CE was often regarded as the perfect empire. The outstanding military prowess of the Romans was used to expand the empire, and once the territories were acceptably...

www.worldhistory.org

I know Titus is the not the prince of Dan. 9. that prince is a future prince who we call Antichrist.

Since you reject what is historic record that I know, why don't you post from the historic documents you hold that cause you to disagree with me.

And no I never insisted that Titus leading all three times- that is you jumping to false conclusions again.

I don't reject the historical record. In 66AD, Cestius Gallus brought in an army from Syria and that is when they fled per the warning of Jesus in Luke 21.

The Jews defeated that army. Then in 67 General Vespasian brought an army and took several cities, but did not make it to Jerusalem, because that is when word came that Nero was dead. Then Rome went through a few Emperors, because of all the civil unrest in the Empire, so the revolt against Rome by the Jews was not the only issue going on. When Titus finally surrounded Jerusalem in the spring of 70AD, no one was able to flee, because they all just arrived for the Passover. Not something the Christians would have returned for. The Jews prevented people from leaving and the infighting of the Jews, caused as much death in the besieged city as when the walls finally fell. So it was the Jews, the people of Jesus who is the Prince to come, who literally brought on death and destruction to themselves, because all the factions who revolted against the Romans turned against each other as well. They paid for the blood of Jesus on the hands of their forefathers.

Matthew 27:24-25

"When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children."