Tongues ( 'sign' gifts ) did/did not cease?

[1stCenturyLady]

No one has conversations with God

Mine are short

 

[DJT_47]

Mine are short

God speaks to us through his written word

 

[1stCenturyLady]

All the gifts of the Spirit, the miraculous manifestations of the Spirit, have ceased.

I'm in the New Covenant, and because NOTHING CEASES inside of a covenant until the covenant, itself ends, what covenant are you in?

 

[ElieG12]

All the gifts of the Spirit, the miraculous manifestations of the Spirit, have ceased.

Exactly.

Since John died at the beginning of the second century, no one else has done through the spirit of Jehovah, any mighty work like the ones the apostles did.

Where did modern "miracle artists" get the spirit to do these works if no one have been transferring those powers since John's death?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

God speaks to us through his written word

Yes He does, but God is not in a box, nor on vacation in some galaxy far, far away...

 

[DJT_47]

I'm in the New Covenant, and because NOTHING CEASES inside of a covenant until the covenant, itself ends, what covenant are you in?

The gifts ended when they could not longer be passed on by the apostles thru the laying on of their hands. None of the gifts are needed today unlike in biblical times

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Exactly.

Since John died at the beginning of the second century, no one else has done through the spirit of Jehovah, any mighty work like the ones the apostles did.

Where did modern "miracle artists" get the spirit to do these works if no one have been transferring those powers since John's death?

The early rain fell on the Day of Pentecost, but God hates tiny boxes people try to put Him in, so he fell on Cornelius (Acts 10) without hands being laid on him, AND his entire family. After the apostles all died there were still some who prayed in tongues and had the gifts of the Spirit, but they were few.

When the Church was mainly Rome, it became very worldly and even brought pagan practices into it to help initiate all the pagans into it when paganism became illegal. All the pagan priests and pagan temples became the first church buildings. This went on in the two legs of iron, a nod to the statue in Babylon for a thousand years. This is why the RCC and the EO both pray to Mary mostly, as Jesus is just a little child.

The feet of iron and clay is a mixture of many denominations started by the Reformation 500 years ago. Jesus said of those at the very beginning of the Reformation, "“I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead." One of those men created a huge type of denomination, and also created Cessationism, which you and D believe. Remember the words of Jesus and repent. " 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you."

Then a couple hundred years into the Reformation this was said by Jesus, 4 You have a few names [d]even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." That was John Welsey you started the holiness movement known as Methodists, and when ready, the LATTER RAIN of the Holy Spirit fell at the beginning of the 20th century.

Don't let John Calvin make you miss the latter rain. Repent of Cessationism and unbelief!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The gifts ended when they could not longer be passed on by the apostles thru the laying on of their hands. None of the gifts are needed today unlike in biblical times

Read Acts 10. They didn't need hands laid on them, and neither do we.

You need the Holy Spirit pretty badly right now.

 

[ElieG12]

Two of the purposes of the first century "gift of tongues" were

1) to identify the community that truly had God's full support, and
2)to rapidly expand the truth of Christ's kingdom to territories with different languages.

What today is called the same, does it fulfill any of those purposes?

 

[ElieG12]

Well, if you are able to speak languages, you should also be able to write them...

Why don't you show us the languages you know how to speak by writing them down?

Then someone will be able to translate, as Paul says:

1 Cor. 14:5 Now I would like for all of you to speak in tongues, but I prefer that you prophesy. Indeed, the one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the congregation may be built up. (...) 13 Therefore, let the one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.
(...) 26 What is to be done, then, brothers? When you come together, one has a psalm, another has a teaching, another has a revelation, another has a tongue, and another has an interpretation. Let all things take place for building up. 27 And if someone speaks in a tongue, let it be limited to two or three at the most, and in turns, and someone must interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the congregation and speak to himself and to God. (...) 33 For God is a God not of disorder but of peace.

... perhaps using Google-Translate, as I often do.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Well, if you are able to speak languages, you should also be able to write them...

Why don't you show us the languages you know how to speak by writing them down?

Then someone will be able to translate, as Paul says:

1 Cor. 14:5 Now I would like for all of you to speak in tongues, but I prefer that you prophesy. Indeed, the one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the congregation may be built up. (...) 13 Therefore, let the one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.
(...) 26 What is to be done, then, brothers? When you come together, one has a psalm, another has a teaching, another has a revelation, another has a tongue, and another has an interpretation. Let all things take place for building up. 27 And if someone speaks in a tongue, let it be limited to two or three at the most, and in turns, and someone must interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the congregation and speak to himself and to God. (...) 33 For God is a God not of disorder but of peace.

... perhaps using Google-Translate, as I often do.

Don't even try to give instructions on speaking in tongues. You don't have them. You're like a blind mouse describing an elephant. You haven't a clue.

 

[ElieG12]

... tongues. You don't have them.

Yes, I do. I am polyglot ...

... You haven't a clue.

Neither do you.

In the first century not many books were written because they were expensive and it was a luxury so you had to speak a lot... in many languages so that the truths of the kingdom of God would be known in far away places on earth.

Today there are many ways and some of them very cheap to take the message to the whole world. For example, our official website is translated into more than 1,000 languages. The gift of tongues is no longer necessary...

Actually, Jesus said on judgment day many people would say to him:

‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ (Matt. 7:22)

... those probably will be Pentecostals.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Yes, I do. I am polyglot ...

Real supernatural Tongues are not known by anyone, not even yourself. That means all you have is knowledge of other languages and human reasoning of the FLESH. Not of the Spirit.

In the first century not many books were written because they were expensive and it was a luxury so you had to speak a lot... in many languages so that the truths of the kingdom of God would be known in far away places on earth.

Today there are many ways and some of them very cheap to take the message to the whole world. For example, our official website is translated into more than 1,000 languages. The gift of tongues is no longer necessary...

Actually, Jesus said on judgment day many people would say to him:

‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ (Matt. 7:22)

I used to be just like you when I was a Cessationist. I remember reading one pastor' book and he said, "Tongues can't be real, otherwise I would have it." You can try your best to reason it away, but God is bigger than your thoughts.

 

[ElieG12]

Real supernatural Tongues are not known by anyone, not even yourself. ...

"Real Supernatural Tongues" ... according to whom? To you?

Some of my brothers were Pentecostal before. This brother of mine related:

Although pleased with the progress I had made, I was disappointed that I did not possess special gifts that the Pentecostal Church considers manifestations of God’s spirit, such as the gift of tongues. But one day my desire was realized.

While I was presiding at a religious service and praying, a voice told me to lay my hands on a certain woman of the congregation. With my eyes still closed, I found the woman among those present and laid my hands upon her. Immediately there was a loud shout and she began, together with me, to speak in tongues. This involves uttering words independently of the will of the speaker. The experience made me very happy.

However, I still was not able to understand the Bible, and this disturbed me very much. I was told that the Bible could be understood only by those having the special gift of interpretation, and this explanation satisfied me somewhat. I was grateful, at least, for having received the gift of tongues.

But it was not many months before I became convinced that something was wrong with this so-called “gift.” I began having terrible nightmares. It was as though I were paralyzed and, at the same time, I would see dark forms that held me on all sides. I began to wonder whether these evidences of attack by wicked spirits might have some relationship with the “gift” I had received. My suspicions increased when a pastor, who possessed the gift of interpretations, ordered a person with the gift of tongues to stop speaking, since the things he was saying were shameful and unrepeatable.

Read his testimony here https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101976528

I believe what my brothers tell.

I don't believe any internet story, since internet is full of ficticious characters with prefabricated stories.

 

[ElieG12]

We got many other testimonies about that modern practice.

“I JUST don’t understand,” says Devon. “Each week at my church, many seem to get the holy spirit and miraculously speak in different languages. Some of them lead immoral lives. Meanwhile, I try to live in a morally upright way. Yet, as much as I pray for it, I never receive this gift of the spirit. How can that be?”

Gabriel likewise attends a church where people appear to receive holy spirit and speak in tongues. “What bothers me,” he explains, “is that during my prayers, others interrupt me with loud speech that neither I nor they understand. No one really benefits from this speech. Should not a gift ofGod’s spirit have some useful purpose?”

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2010735?q=Gift+of+Tongues&p=par

Do you think the questions these honest Christians asked are reasonable?

 

[GTW27]

"Real Supernatural Tongues" ... according to whom? To you?

Some of my brothers were Pentecostal before. This brother of mine related:


Read his testimony here https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101976528

I believe what my brothers tell.

I don't believe any internet story, since internet is full of ficticious characters with prefabricated stories.

Blessings ElieG12. What you describe here with your bother is demonic tongues. This I have witnessed in a possessed man.

 

[ElieG12]

Blessings ElieG12. What you describe here with your bother is demonic tongues. This I have witnessed in a possessed man.

Thanks. Then I ask:

How is it possible that within a church so many people are speaking strange languages saying that it is the spirit of God, and among them there is someone possessed by demons?

The logical thing is to conclude that in reality NONE of those people had the holy spirit of God, or the devil would not have been able to enter a place full to the brim with so many people supposedly filled with the holy spirit.

Something different was happening there... and most likely is happening in many more places with such spectacles.

I remember when I was a teenager on the way to my school there was a small Pentecostal church right in front of the bus stop where I had to take the bus. The yelling in that place was horrible... and they said that it was the spirit of God causing that. They looked like santería parties... which are also quite common in Cuba, my country of origin, and in them the yelling is exactly the same.

 

[GTW27]

Thanks. Then I ask:

How is it possible that within a church so many people are speaking strange languages saying that it is the spirit of God, and among them there is someone possessed by demons?

The logical thing is to conclude that in reality NONE of those people had the holy spirit of God, or the devil would not have been able to enter a place full to the brim with so many people supposedly filled with the holy spirit.

Something different was happening there... and most likely is happening in many more places with such spectacles.

I remember when I was a teenager on the way to my school there was a small Pentecostal church right in front of the bus stop where I had to take the bus. The yelling in that place was horrible... and they said that it was the spirit of God causing that. They looked like santería parties... which are also quite common in Cuba, my country of origin, and in them the yelling is exactly the same.

Blessings ElieG12. Even at the last supper the enemy was there. My intent when it comes to your brother was for revealing what probably happened. The voice he heard was not from good. The girl he laid his hands on was the source of the demonic tongues and the cause of his harassment that came later. And yes that harassment is demonic. There is another spiritual gift of The holy Spirit called the gift of discernment of spirits. This The Lord also has given to the church to discern the evil and the good. When the enemy comes around he is easily discerned. But I believe you could be correct about certain churches operating in a different spirit. Hope your brother is doing better now.

 

[ElieG12]

Jude was not possessed ...

Do you seriously believe that the holy spirit of God is a person, and that this person is incapable of casting a demon out of where he is?

 

[ElieG12]

I am a JW.

On one occasion I had to preach in a house where they practiced spiritism. My preaching partner realized that in an adjoining room they were doing a consultation with a spirit, so he told me while the person who received us left for a moment towards that other room. I told my companion that we should pray in turns: while one spoke, the other should be praying...

When we left that house, my companion told me: "I heard that they were complaining inside that room, because when we began to pray, the spirit no longer wanted to answer them. It had left" ... and the people in the room came out to see who were talking about God in the living room.