Tongues ( 'sign' gifts ) did/did not cease?

[GRACE ambassador]

Precious friends, this is an intriguing/interesting thought?:

Why would The LORD "reveal to Paul" that "the sign gifts would cease" before His
Second Coming, IF 'that Coming' is when "That Which Is Perfect Is Come"?

Did He Make 'an error'? Why didn't He Just Leave 'Such A Statement' out to
"prevent Much Confusion" since they will continue until He Comes anyway?
( Sure would be a LOT Less "biting and devouring" over the Massive Confusion, eh? )

Perchance He Really Meant His Pure And Preserved Word, Which He "Has Magnified
Above All His Holy Name" is Actually "That Which Is Perfect" and that "It Has Come"
and. thus "the sign gifts Have Actually Already ceased"?

What think ye?

Amen.

 

[marks]

Precious friends, this is an intriguing/interesting thought?:

Why would The LORD "reveal to Paul" that "the sign gifts would cease" before His
Second Coming, IF 'that Coming' is when "That Which Is Perfect Is Come"?

Did He Make 'an error'? Why didn't He Just Leave 'Such A Statement' out to
"prevent Much Confusion" since they will continue until He Comes anyway?
( Sure would be a LOT Less "biting and devouring" over the Massive Confusion, eh?

Perchance He Really Meant His Pure And Preserved Word, Which He "Has Magnified
Above All His Holy Name" is Actually "That Which Is Perfect" and that "It Has Come"
and thus "the sign gifts Have Actually Already ceased"?

What think ye?

Amen.

And, Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged and Edified:

When Did ( the 'sign' gifts ) tongues cease?

I think that if there is a passage which illuminates this one, it would be:

Ephesians 4:11-14 KJV
11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;


1 Corinthians 13:9-11 KJV
9) For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10) But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11) When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

From childhood to maturity, in particular the body of Christ.

Much love!

 

[GRACE ambassador]

I think that if there is a passage which illuminates this one, it would be:

Ephesians 4:11-14 KJV
11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;


1 Corinthians 13:9-11 KJV
9) For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10) But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11) When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

From childhood to maturity, in particular the body of Christ.

Much love!

Thanks so much for the illumination.

So, might we say then "that which is perfect" would possibly be God's Great GRACE Departure
and the glorification [ perfection of maturity? ] of the [ in particular ] Body Of Christ, with the
continuation of the 'sign' gifts until then?

Overthinking, eh?

Amen.

 

[marks]

Thanks so much for the illumination.

So, might we say then "that which is perfect" would possibly be God's Great GRACE Departure
and the glorification [ perfection of maturity? ] of the [ in particular ] Body Of Christ, with the
continuation of the 'sign' gifts until then?

Overthinking, eh?

Amen.

I don't see that we're going to stop needing to grow more as long as we are in this life, on this planet. That's how I see it. And tongues edify the one speaking.

But so far as the Sign Gifts, what I would call "Signs and Wonders" as done by Jesus, and the Apostles, the multitudes healed, and delivered, all of that, I think that was to authenticate Jesus, and the Gospel message through the Apostles. I don't believe that is for the current time.

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

Precious friends, this is an intriguing/interesting thought?:

Why would The LORD "reveal to Paul" that "the sign gifts would cease" before His
Second Coming, IF 'that Coming' is when "That Which Is Perfect Is Come"?

Did He Make 'an error'? Why didn't He Just Leave 'Such A Statement' out to
"prevent Much Confusion" since they will continue until He Comes anyway?
( Sure would be a LOT Less "biting and devouring" over the Massive Confusion, eh? )

Perchance He Really Meant His Pure And Preserved Word, Which He "Has Magnified
Above All His Holy Name" is Actually "That Which Is Perfect" and that "It Has Come"
and. thus "the sign gifts Have Actually Already ceased"?

What think ye?

Amen.

And, Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged and Edified:

When Did ( the 'sign' gifts ) tongues cease?

They have not ceased. I still speak in tongues daily. That which is perfect has not yet come in me... When and if it does, I suppose I will stop speaking in tongues.

Give God the glory!

 

[Lambano]

A Presbyterian minister I listen to says he thinks the Holy Spirit brought back the sign gifts (like the Azusa Street Revival) just to tweak the Presbyterians - and remind them (and us Methodists!) that He's still active in this world.

It's not my gift - but I praise God for the gifts He gives to my brothers and sisters.

 

[Tommy Cool]

Precious friends, this is an intriguing/interesting thought?:

Why would The LORD "reveal to Paul" that "the sign gifts would cease" before His
Second Coming, IF 'that Coming' is when "That Which Is Perfect Is Come"?

Did He Make 'an error'? Why didn't He Just Leave 'Such A Statement' out to
"prevent Much Confusion" since they will continue until He Comes anyway?
( Sure would be a LOT Less "biting and devouring" over the Massive Confusion, eh? )

Perchance He Really Meant His Pure And Preserved Word, Which He "Has Magnified
Above All His Holy Name" is Actually "That Which Is Perfect" and that "It Has Come"
and. thus "the sign gifts Have Actually Already ceased"?

What think ye?

Amen.

And, Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged and Edified:

When Did ( the 'sign' gifts ) tongues cease?

They did cease! ...............................momentarily, when I went to sleep ....but they commenced once again when I got up....got outta bed dragged the comb across my head

 

[David in NJ]

They did cease! ...............................momentarily, when I went to sleep ....but they commenced once again when I got up....got outta bed dragged the comb across my head

LOVE IT

 

[David in NJ]

@GRACE ambassador asked: "Why would The LORD "reveal to Paul" that "the sign gifts would cease" before His
Second Coming"

the ONLY CORRECT Answer = the Apostle Paul never said that the gifts would cease before His Coming

Genesis, Gospel, Jesus and the Apostle Paul all say and agree with this = 1 Corinthians 1:1-9

Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

I don't see that we're going to stop needing to grow more as long as we are in this life, on this planet. That's how I see it.

Thanks again, brother - appreciate your kind and "Much love" participation. Yes, I agree - we
need to run the Grace race and mature until this life ends, or rapture, whichever comes first.

They have not ceased. I still speak in tongues daily. That which is perfect has not yet come in me... When and if it does, I suppose I will stop speaking in tongues.

Give God the glory!

Precious friends, may I say that I respect your ( continuation ) decision on this issue, and
hope you will graciously have the same for me, no matter how I decide, by The Scriptures.

And tongues edify the one speaking.

Yes, I would agree, IF the 'gift' has not ceased yet:

1Co 14:4 "He that speaketh in a tongue edifieth himself..."​

So, the next question would be: Is the 'gift of tongues' for Everyone, so that
All in the Body Of Christ may be 'edified' therewith, 'growing into maturity'?:
I have a difficult time with this 'idea' since Scripture Asks:

"Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?​

Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?"​

(1Co 12:29-30)​

Does God Want us to answer 'no' to these?

If so, and I "don't have the 'tongues' gift," is there another "way I can grow into maturity,
with edification"? "Approved Unto God" (1 Timothy 2:15), without this gift?

Respectful and "Much love' discussion, to be continued?...

 

[marks]

If so, and I "don't have the 'tongues' gift," is there another "way I can grow into maturity,
with edification"? "Approved Unto God" (1 Timothy 2:15), without this gift?

Certainly! My wife speaks in tongues, yet I do not. God has a unique relationship with each of us.

Much love!

 

[ScottA]

Precious friends, this is an intriguing/interesting thought?:

Why would The LORD "reveal to Paul" that "the sign gifts would cease" before His
Second Coming, IF 'that Coming' is when "That Which Is Perfect Is Come"?

Did He Make 'an error'? Why didn't He Just Leave 'Such A Statement' out to
"prevent Much Confusion" since they will continue until He Comes anyway?
( Sure would be a LOT Less "biting and devouring" over the Massive Confusion, eh? )

Perchance He Really Meant His Pure And Preserved Word, Which He "Has Magnified
Above All His Holy Name" is Actually "That Which Is Perfect" and that "It Has Come"
and. thus "the sign gifts Have Actually Already ceased"?

What think ye?

Amen.

And, Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged and Edified:

When Did ( the 'sign' gifts ) tongues cease?

This verse in 1 Corinthians 13 has been greatly misunderstood:

1 Corinthians 13:10​

But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.​

If you will consider the whole chapter and passage, it should be rather obvious that Paul was saying something very much more simple: that partial revelation is no longer necessary after all revelation has come. In other words, over the course of being "drawn" by the Father, revelation comes "Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little.” But once a person is saved those things which have been used for their drawing...are simply no longer necessary.

For example, if a fellow seeker of God received a word from God for another seeker, the one has helped the other according to such things coming "line upon line, Here a little, there a little." But what purpose has God to keep sending a fellow with a word to help in drawing them, if the time of drawing them is complete and they are already saved? None. Again, Paul was just indicating that the time of being drawn and the signposts along the way to God comes to an end when they have arrived.

As such, the passage is no indication that prophecy or other signs come to a general and all inclusive end at some point in history. On the contrary, most who deny the continuation of the gifts of the Spirit, do so out of spite, not having received any spiritual signs themselves, causing them to twist the passage to mean that--No God has not and does not pour out His spirit upon all flesh according to the confirmed prophecy of Joel. It is for this same reason that Jesus gave woe to the Priests for hindering those who would enter in, and warned the church that there would be "weeping and gnashing of teeth" coming to those who did the same.

 

[Triumph1300]

Tongues.....one of the 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Most Christians cannot even name all 9 of them, because there is hardly any preaching/teaching about the gifts in the churches today.

 

[amadeus]

Thanks again, brother - appreciate your kind and "Much love" participation. Yes, I agree - we
need to run the Grace race and mature until this life ends, or rapture, whichever comes first.

Precious friends, may I say that I respect your ( continuation ) decision on this issue, and
hope you will graciously have the same for me, no matter how I decide, by The Scriptures.

Yes, I would agree, IF the 'gift' has not ceased yet:

1Co 14:4 "He that speaketh in a tongue edifieth himself..."​

So, the next question would be: Is the 'gift of tongues' for Everyone, so that
All in the Body Of Christ may be 'edified' therewith, 'growing into maturity'?:
I have a difficult time with this 'idea' since Scripture Asks:

"Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?​

Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?"​

(1Co 12:29-30)​

Does God Want us to answer 'no' to these?

If so, and I "don't have the 'tongues' gift," is there another "way I can grow into maturity,
with edification"? "Approved Unto God" (1 Timothy 2:15), without this gift?

Respectful and "Much love' discussion, to be continued?...

1co 12:14	For the body is not one member, but many.
1co 12:15	If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1co 12:16	And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1co 12:17	If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

Many members, not just one.
Should we be content with what we have been given?

Php 4:11

Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.

Should we ask for more?

 

[Nancy]

This verse in 1 Corinthians 13 has been greatly misunderstood:

1 Corinthians 13:10​

But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.​

If you will consider the whole chapter and passage, it should be rather obvious that Paul was saying something very much more simple: that partial revelation is no longer necessary after all revelation has come. In other words, over the course of being "drawn" by the Father, revelation comes "Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little.” But once a person is saved those things which have been used for their drawing...are simply no longer necessary.

For example, if a fellow seeker of God received a word from God for another seeker, the one has helped the other according to such things coming "line upon line, Here a little, there a little." But what purpose has God to keep sending a fellow with a word to help in drawing them, if the time of drawing them is complete and they are already saved? None. Again, Paul was just indicating that the time of being drawn and the signposts along the way to God comes to an end when they have arrived.

As such, the passage is no indication that prophecy or other signs come to a general and all inclusive end at some point in history. On the contrary, most who deny the continuation of the gifts of the Spirit, do so out of spite, not having received any spiritual signs themselves, causing them to twist the passage to mean that--No God has not and does not pour out His spirit upon all flesh according to the confirmed prophecy of Joel. It is for this same reason that Jesus gave woe to the Priests for hindering those who would enter in, and warned the church that there would be "weeping and gnashing of teeth" coming to those who did the same.

Hello Scott!
"On the contrary, most who deny the continuation of the gifts of the Spirit, do so out of spite, not having received any spiritual signs themselves, causing them to twist the passage to mean that--No God has not..."

The fact that I do not speak in tongues (one sister and one brother of mine do) has always sowed doubt of my salvation because of what some have said like: "if you don't have at least one of the "Spiritual gifts", then you are NOT saved-has caused me much doubt over many years. But I am mostly shut in. The churches near me are false IMHO...I've tried many and just cannot fit in. So, I watch online, pray, worship and read the books of the bible with two of my sisters, on facetime. Maybe the fact that when first born again, the VERY first (Protestant) charismatic/Pentecostal church I went to was trying to slay me in the spirit by pushing me! I resisted because I knew the young pastor was trying to force in his own power. Also, the place was so out of order! ALL spoke THE same time in the strangest "tongues" I have ever heard...even my 2 siblings who spoke in tongues, found it unscriptural. I found it to be way of control. So, since then, I never spoke in, or prayed for tongues. How does one know if one is just blathering? I know I did, as well as two good friends of mine and my other siblings faked it "to make it"...HA! We were babes back then, but I still do not ask for that.

What do you think of "The times of the Gentiles coming to a close'?

 

[ScottA]

Hello Scott!
"On the contrary, most who deny the continuation of the gifts of the Spirit, do so out of spite, not having received any spiritual signs themselves, causing them to twist the passage to mean that--No God has not..."

The fact that I do not speak in tongues (one sister and one brother of mine do) has always sowed doubt of my salvation because of what some have said like: "if you don't have at least one of the "Spiritual gifts", then you are NOT saved-has caused me much doubt over many years. But I am mostly shut in. The churches near me are false IMHO...I've tried many and just cannot fit in. So, I watch online, pray, worship and read the books of the bible with two of my sisters, on facetime. Maybe the fact that when first born again, the VERY first (Protestant) charismatic/Pentecostal church I went to was trying to slay me in the spirit by pushing me! I resisted because I knew the young pastor was trying to force in his own power. Also, the place was so out of order! ALL spoke THE same time in the strangest "tongues" I have ever heard...even my 2 siblings who spoke in tongues, found it unscriptural. I found it to be way of control. So, since then, I never spoke in, or prayed for tongues. How does one know if one is just blathering? I know I did, as well as two good friends of mine and my other siblings faked it "to make it"...HA! We were babes back then, but I still do not ask for that.

What do you think of "The times of the Gentiles coming to a close'?

Tongues was and is a sign-- not to be blabbed out as if parading in a religious robe, but rather a very simple message that points to the biblical reality that it is the Holy Spirit who gives both utterance by word, and spiritual discernment by interpretation. And yes, it is not the actual gift of the Spirit that is abused or faked, but the lack thereof; and many have made it into something it never was.

As for the times of the Gentiles coming to a close...this is something I know about. Yes, the Holy Spirit leads unto all truth, the mystery of God is finished as He declares to His servants the prophets, and the seventh angel is about to sound. Just as it was also at the time of Christ, this is that generation.

PS, Above I was only addressing "tongues", but there are many spiritual gifts given by God, as "every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father."

 

[Nancy]

Tongues was and is a sign-- not to be blabbed out as if parading in a religious robe, but rather a very simple message that points to the biblical reality that it is the Holy Spirit who gives both utterance by word, and spiritual discernment by interpretation. And yes, it is not the actual gift of the Spirit that is abused or faked, but the lack thereof; and many have made it into something it never was.

As for the times of the Gentiles coming to a close...this is something I know about. Yes, the Holy Spirit leads unto all truth, the mystery of God is finished as He declares to His servants the prophets, and the seventh angel is about to sound. Just as it was also at the time of Christ, this is that generation.

" Yes, the Holy Spirit leads unto all truth, the mystery of God is finished as He declares to His servants the prophets, and the seventh angel is about to sound. Just as it was also at the time of Christ, this is that generation."

Do you see this pertaining to "each in their own turn"? Or is that only speaking of the 1st fruits, and that order of meeting the Lord in the air?

 

[dev553344]

I notice gifts in this day and age as well, I don't speak in tongues though.

 

[ScottA]

" Yes, the Holy Spirit leads unto all truth, the mystery of God is finished as He declares to His servants the prophets, and the seventh angel is about to sound. Just as it was also at the time of Christ, this is that generation."

Do you see this pertaining to "each in their own turn"? Or is that only speaking of the 1st fruits, and that order of meeting the Lord in the air?

Yes, to both. There is an end that is personal for "each one in his own order", and there is also an end that comes for Israel and for the Gentiles-- "first the Jew and then to the Greek." To each their own generation, the most evil of which brings the end of their time. This is the second time of times, of "a time, times, and half a time."

 

[ElieG12]

The gifts of the holy spirit were special abilities that anointed Christians received according to the individual person. However, these abilities were not given out of nowhere, but rather the spiritual gifts were transmitted by the laying on of hands from those who had originally received the holy spirit from heaven. When the last of the 120 disciples who were at Pentecost (Acts 2) died, the gifts stopped being transmitted. The new generations of Christians could no longer transmit the holy spirit to others through the laying on of hands, since they had not received that authority from Jesus.

I, personally, have never had any information about any "apostolic father" or Christians after them who did any powerful work like the miraculous gifts that anointed Christians did before them.

When the fashion for Pentecostal revivalism began at the beginning of the 20th century, and missionaries began to travel to remote countries to "evangelize", they believed that they were going to speak in the languages of the inhabitants of those countries "by the work and grace of the holy spirit" ... but they had to waking up to the reality that they couldn't speak any foreign language without first having to learn it like any other foreign language student.

The languages spoken by the holy spirit that are mentioned as a gift were not languages that did not exist among humans, but languages that had translations and that had to be given in order to understand the messages transmitted by the spirit in those languages. These powers had the function of identifying the Christian community as the true people of God at that time.

Today there are other ways to identify true Christians.