I have noticed the following Negatives about the 'rapture'...

[MatthewG]

A very interesting read, and really cheap. Easy to read, kind of repeats a little bit but repetition helps retain in memory.

Amazon.com

www.amazon.com

A comment from 2022,

Isn’t truth usually simple?
Reviewed in the United States on May 7, 2022
Verified Purchase
I love the simplicity put forth here on this major topic. It makes so much sense. The author is so humble yet so direct. Hope deferred makes the heart sick. Jesus coming has already taken place when and how Jesus said it would.

 

[David in NJ]

And Paul says by word of the Lord. Either he had a revelation or it was the word of Jesus on the Mount of Olives. While it is most definitely possible that he could have had a divine revelation, and it says "We declare" meaning it would have been a collective divine revelation, it is more likely and responsible to attribute this as referring to Jesus' account of the end times at the mount of olives.

Paul had conversations with the Apostles first hand so he likely recieve several versions of the account providing some untold detail from the Gospels and Jesus also may have spoken on other occasions with His disciples having not been recorded. The simplest and most reasonable method of interpretation is that Paul is speaking of the account of Jesus' return given at the mount of Olives and recorded in Mathew 24-25.

The biggest question is is there any statements in this account preventing it from possibly being the same event?

@InfamousBerean asks: "The BIG question is is there any statements in this account preventing it from possibly being the same event?"

No!
Here is why the answer is a definitive 'No' = 1 Thess 4:16

v16 - "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise."

Let's look at v16 without adding our own words and without subtracting from "It is written".

a.) The Lord will descend from Heaven = Acts 1: 9-11 , Acts 3:20-21 , Rev 6:12-16 and Rev 19:11-21,

b.) with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God = Matt 24:30 , Rev 10:1-7 , 1 Cor 15: 51-53

c.) the dead in Christ will rise FIRST = Daniel 12:1-3 , Matt 22:29-32 , Revelation 20:4-6

 

[rebuilder 454]

my Brother @GRACE ambassador,
i have studied God's Word for nearly 40 years and i have looked at every scripture for the supposed 'pre-trib' rapture

pre-trib has not a single scripture to stand on

pre-trib contradicts God's direct statements on His Second Coming

pre-trib contradicts direct statements from the LORD Jesus Christ

pre-trib contradicts direct statements from the Apostles

pre-trib directly contradicts OT Prophecy

There is no pre-trib declaration or prophecy in the entire Scriptures = THIS should be your RED FLAG ALERT

What the LORD JESUS commands us is the SAME for all of us = Psalm 51:6 , John ch17 , 1 Cor ch1

You, @marks @rebuilder 454 are my Brothers in Christ and i want the BEST for my Brothers and Sisters

We as the FAMILY of God in Christ need to stick TOGETHER with the Eternal Glue of TRUTH

Rev 14.
Jesus gathering of Messianic Jews DURING THE TRIB
Your entire premse is that there is one POSTRIB GATHERING when Jesus returns on white horses with the saints.
I just blew a hole in that so big a ship can sail through it.
You were asked to post a postrib rapture verse and were unable to.

 

[rebuilder 454]

JESUS gave us a direct statement of fact = Post-Trib = Matthew ch24

Can you please post a direct statement from JESUS that declares: "I will rapture my Church BEFORE my Second Coming"

We both agree Jesus returns postrib.
The rapture is pretrib because Jesus framed 2 COMINGS IN MAT 24
One after, and one before the trib.
In your doctrine ,you refuse to acknowledge "before the flood" Jesus returns, and before sodom is judged Jesus returns ,both were pretribulation dynamics. The "lot example" is so harmful to the postrib doctrine, the adherants MUST REFRAME IT.

 

[David in NJ]

Rev 14.
Jesus gathering of Messianic Jews DURING THE TRIB
Your entire premse is that there is one POSTRIB GATHERING when Jesus returns on white horses with the saints.
I just blew a hole in that so big a ship can sail through it.
You were asked to post a postrib rapture verse and were unable to.

Peace my Brother in the Family of Christ,

Holes are for donuts.

The Whole Truth is for Believers who love the Truth.

POST-TRIB Gathering declared by JESUS from "the four corners of the earth AND from one end of Heaven to the other"
a.) Matt ch24
b.) 1 Thess 4:13-18
c.) Ephesians 2:11-22
d.) Daniel 12:1-3

 

[MatthewG]

People choose what they wanna believe, and there is nothing no one can do about it.

Those who seek for truth will do so...

There is obvious textual context that is highly important to consider; and just cause someone disagrees or believes a differed way; doesn't mean they aren't a Christian.

It is just in their heart what they believe is gonna happen, and that is with-in their reality of perception.

Whether they see or not; well ... I guess that will be pending until the day of death.

 

[David in NJ]

We both agree Jesus returns postrib.
The rapture is pretrib because Jesus framed 2 COMINGS IN MAT 24
One after, and one before the trib.
In your doctrine ,you refuse to acknowledge "before the flood" Jesus returns, and before sodom is judged Jesus returns ,both were pretribulation dynamics. The "lot example" is so harmful to the postrib doctrine, the adherants MUST REFRAME IT.

my Brother in Christ who i love and appreciate (never forget this) and this includes @marks and @GRACE ambassador

From Genesis to Revelation the Holy Scriptures only speak of His 1st Coming and then His 2nd Coming(Return of the KING).

i have yet to reveal to the Brethren, from the Scriptures, the SLAM DUNK of Prophetic Word that vaporizes the error of pre-trib

However, look no further then Genesis chapters 1 thru 7 that only speak of POST-TRIB Coming.

***NOTE*** - When God establishes His Truth in the Beginning(Genesis) HE Remains True to His Word throughout and does not waver!

 

[MatthewG]

I don't believe what David in NJ believes.

And nor do I find the need to assert him in a different manner considering his firm stance.

It's just like atheist who says there is no God; some people become so firm on where they stand nothing can ever change their mind.

That is what free-will is all about as God has given us a soul and choice of life; with the ability to believe whatever one may desire.

Some really believe that Jesus Christ is still coming, however the scripture seems to indicate a coming with-in the 40 years proclaimed by Jesus.

However some say there is double prophecy - i talked about it some pastor (randomly) one day at taco bell, and he thought donald trump and hillary was the start of the Revelation 2nd prophecy.

I disagree with double because it's only a one time event, as considered in the Lord Jesus Christ words with-in the Gospel.

 

[amigo de christo]

Agree @amigo de christo
The father of lies is standing against the FATHER OF TRUTH !

Yeah , but rest assured on the day of the Lord the father of lies wont be STANDING ,
THERE IS NO POWER against GOD and HIS CHRIST . They fled in terror at HIM while HE was upon the earth .
They begged and pleaded , a thousand ofthem , cause they knew . OH yeah they knew .
THERE IS NO POWER AGAINST GOD . And on the day of the LORD many gonna wish they had not heeded
the father of lies but rather the GOD the FATHER OF OUR LORD AND SAVOIR JESUS CHRIST .
For if the demons had no power over him while he walked the earth , HOW MUCH LESS
when HE RETURNS IN ALL HIS GLORY .
GOD SPOKE and all that was became , was created . THERE IS NO POWER AGAINST GOD
the demons even know that and tremble . But them demons sure try and convince man
of some lies indeed which will damn them all who loved and believed a lie and rejected the love of the truth
whereby they could be saved .
Rest assured on the day of the LORD those who bodly mocked GOD and believed a lie
WONT BE SO BOLD on that day . I can hardly imagine what on earth that would feel like .
Just hearing the Words depart from me , I NEVER KNEW YOU .
Wont be no bold ones on that day . Folks should have come a running to the glorious LORD JESUS
instead of buying into a lie that could not save them .

 

[David in NJ]

We both agree Jesus returns postrib.
The rapture is pretrib because Jesus framed 2 COMINGS IN MAT 24
One after, and one before the trib.
In your doctrine ,you refuse to acknowledge "before the flood" Jesus returns, and before sodom is judged Jesus returns ,both were pretribulation dynamics. The "lot example" is so harmful to the postrib doctrine, the adherants MUST REFRAME IT.

Please post the verses in Matt ch24 where you see a pre-trib coming of the Lord - thank you

 

[MatthewG]

Need to take in all the context from all three Gospels David,

Matthew Chapter 22-24, Luke 17, Mark 13.

Then You also need to take in to context from other letters, which indicate there day of the judgement would be coming upon the Nation of Israel, and

those people were all waiting for Jesus Christ return.

It's a lot of work; and I have done it myself and the concurance would be for those in that time, Jesus coming for the bride that was amongst the desturction of Jerusaelm as Gods wrath poured out on them from the cup of wrath which God had stored up for them having killed the Son of God.

If people choose to just disregard this in encouraging to study and work to find out; you'll only have the choice to stay where you are on the pitchers hill.

 

[amigo de christo]

Please post the verses in Matt ch24 where you see a pre-trib coming - thank you

The pattern is the same as it was in the days of noah , as in the days of lott ,
The lambs wont go under THE WRATH OF GOD . But the lambs do go under the TRIBULATIONS OF MEN .
and that is what pre tribbers seem not to realize .
Now lets examine something . See we can see this in revelation too .
Notice when GOD begins to lay down the judgments , they come against who
those who worshipped THE BEAST , those who ........
BUT NOTICE WHO THE BEAST COMETH AGAINST . IT SAYS SAINTS . it dont say AINTS
it says SAINTS . pre tribbers no want to face some things .
BUT IF JESUS WARNED HIS OWN , and many shall betray many and ye shal be put to death
And that we are appointed UNTO tribulation . WHO YOU THINK THIS LAMB IS GONNA BELIEVE .
exactly .
ITS the WRATH OF GOD we dont go under . The wrath of GOD cometh Agaisnt the ungodly , NOT THE SAINTS
but the wrath of the dragon , of the beast , NOW THAT DO COMETH AGAINST the saints .
BUT ON THE DAY of the LORD , HE WILL rise up come for the lambs and LAY DOWN WRATH AGAINST THE UNGODLY
who persecuted the lambs , who followed the beast , etc . Now how simple is that .

 

[amigo de christo]

Please post the verses in Matt ch24 where you see a pre-trib coming - thank you

Its a one time event , never let em tell ya otherwise . Its all OVER the bible where this can be proved .
My advice to all , YA better dig down and believe JESUS when HE said , YE WOULD BE HATED
you will be persecuted and some of you even put to death . But he who endures to the end the same shall be saved .
And there shall be GREAT TRIBULATION , and AFTER the days of tribulation then they shall see ............................
THEN THE TRIBES OF THE EARTH GONNA MOURN . THOS who rejected JESUS will mourn at HIS COMING
but the lambs WILL GO HOME WITH THE KING .
Folks might want to also reread the FIRST CHAPTER of second thess, REAL CLOSELY . real closely .
and behold and watch HOW IT talks about THIS ONE TIME EVENT and exactly what occurs ON THAT DAY .
ITS all over the bible david . Again my advice
to all is this , GET THOSE PEOPLE READY . THE HOUR OF BETRAYAL IS AT HAND and this world
is gonna come full force as one against the lambs . Fear it not , fear not he who can kill
the body , but after that has no power . But i will tell us whom we ought to fear
FEAR HE WHOM can cast both body and soul into hells fire . Where their worm DIETH not and the fire is not quenched .
TIME to bible up my friends and continue to do so .

 

[David in NJ]

Its a one time event , never let em tell ya otherwise . Its all OVER the bible where this can be proved .
My advice to all , YA better dig down and believe JESUS when HE said , YE WOULD BE HATED
you will be persecuted and some of you even put to death . But he who endures to the end the same shall be saved .
And there shall be GREAT TRIBULATION , and AFTER the days of tribulation then they shall see ............................
THEN THE TRIBES OF THE EARTH GONNA MOURN . THOS who rejected JESUS will mourn at HIS COMING
but the lambs WILL GO HOME WITH THE KING .
Folks might want to also reread the FIRST CHAPTER of second thess, REAL CLOSELY . real closely .
and behold and watch HOW IT talks about THIS ONE TIME EVENT and exactly what occurs ON THAT DAY .
ITS all over the bible david . Again my advice
to all is this , GET THOSE PEOPLE READY . THE HOUR OF BETRAYAL IS AT HAND and this world
is gonna come full force as one against the lambs . Fear it not , fear not he who can kill
the body , but after that has no power . But i will tell us whom we ought to fear
FEAR HE WHOM can cast both body and soul into hells fire . Where their worm DIETH not and the fire is not quenched .
TIME to bible up my friends and continue to do so .

CORRECT = ONE EVENT

1 Thess 1:10 - and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath.

Hebrews 9:28 - so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.
To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

2 Thessalonians chapter 2

Revelation 6:9-17

 

[amigo de christo]

CORRECT = ONE EVENT

1 Thess 1:10 - and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath.

Hebrews 9:28 - so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

2 Thessalonians chapter 2

Revelation 6:9-17

Quaote also the first chapter of SECOND thess . SOMETHING IN IT REAL CLEARLY PUTS A FOOT HOLD on the PRE TRIB .
IT SERIOUSLY PROVES ITS A ONE TIME EVENT . GO reread that FIRST , FIRST Chapter of second thess .
YOU WILL SPOT IT MY FRIEND . ITS VERY CLEAR INDEED .

 

[amigo de christo]

CORRECT = ONE EVENT

1 Thess 1:10 - and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath.

Hebrews 9:28 - so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

2 Thessalonians chapter 2

Revelation 6:9-17

Even peter spoke of the ONE TIME EVENT . they all knew . THEY ALL KNEW DAVID . YEP . and so too do the lambs TODAY .

 

[amigo de christo]

CORRECT = ONE EVENT

1 Thess 1:10 - and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath.

Hebrews 9:28 - so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

2 Thessalonians chapter 2

Revelation 6:9-17

Second thess , FIRST chapter . most folks miss something . Read it slowly . THEN KEEP reading about it .
Talks about a day of rest and a day of wrath . LOOK closely at it my friend . it speaks of those who did tribulation against us .
What happens to US on the day of the LORD and what happens to THEM on THE Day of the LORD .
ON that ONE TIME EVENT . Yeah . read it slowly . cause you can use that david . you sure can .

 

[David in NJ]

Second thess , FIRST chapter . most folks miss something . Read it slowly . THEN KEEP reading about it .
Talks about a day of rest and a day of wrath . LOOK closely at it my friend . it speaks of those who did tribulation against us .
What happens to US on the day of the LORD and what happens to THEM on THE Day of the LORD .
ON that ONE TIME EVENT . Yeah . read it slowly . cause you can use that david . you sure can .

CRYSTAL CLEAR = ONE EVENT = 2 Thessalonians 1:4-10

so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[amigo de christo]

CRYSTAL CLEAR = ONE EVENT = 2 Thessalonians 1:4-10

so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

WHOOOP THERE IT IS ........................
Exactly david . WORD FOR GLORIOUS WORD . RIGHT THERE .

 

[David in NJ]

Rev 14.
Jesus gathering of Messianic Jews DURING THE TRIB
Your entire premse is that there is one POSTRIB GATHERING when Jesus returns on white horses with the saints.
I just blew a hole in that so big a ship can sail through it.
You were asked to post a postrib rapture verse and were unable to.

Matt ch 24 & 1 Thess & 2 Thess & 1 Cor ch15 & 1 John are POST-TRIB Gathering of the Elect that occurs AFTER the Resurrection of the Just.