I have noticed the following Negatives about the 'rapture'...

[GRACE ambassador]

Problems and questions:

1) Daniel the prophet told us exactly when the rapture will take place?
How did Daniel receive "The Revelation Of The Mystery" 'Hid In God' until Paul, and any mention of a rapture?

2) We can 'see' if Jesus tells us 'a lie of the devil' saying "no one can know the day Nor the hour" of the rapture?

a) Some believe this is The Truth about the Second ( prophesied ) Coming Of Christ:​

​

"Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh....​

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only."​

(Mat 24:36, 25:13)​

​

b) But, at the same time they say "we can know the 'time of the season' - What Saith The Scripture?:​

When they therefore were come together, they asked of Him, saying, LORD, wilt thou at this time​

restore again the kingdom to Israel? And He said unto them, It is not for you to know the times​

or the seasons, which The Father hath put in His Own Power." (Acts 1:6, 7)​

To say "Jesus' Words" are a 'lie of the devil' seems like an attack of God's Word Of Truth, does it not?
Honestly, do some of these teachers Really believe they "can know" What Only God, The Father, Knows?

3) Jesus tells us (in Secret) when the rapture will take place in Mat 24?
I believe He "Told the twelve apostles" privately, the 'meaning of the parables', but the rest He Told, According To This:

"Jesus Answered him, I Spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple,​

whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I Said nothing. Why askest thou Me? ask them which​

heard Me, what I Have Said Unto them: Behold, they know what I Said." (John 18:20-21)​

4) Pre-trib rapture is dangerous to my soul and all believers of this doctrine are going into
apostasy / Eternal condemnation? Who made these judgmental people 'God'?

I must be mistaken then, believing the ( false? ) Gospel Of 'Grace Through faith In The Death, Burial, And
Resurrection Of The LORD Jesus Christ For God's Eternal Salvation, According To The Scriptures, because of:

God's All-Sufficient BLOOD!

Confirmed By A Vast Multitude Of Plain and Clear Passages:

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST
+
God's Eternal Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance

When did all This Change into "I Must believe in a view of a post-trib rapture, or be Eternally Condemned"?

I am not a very good student of Scripture, noticing All these Negative discussions, am I?:

However, I honestly believe I am a 'work-in-progress' whom God Has Led to this positive/comforting view?:

God's Great GRACE Departure!

Amen.

 

[Davy]

What RAPTURE?

Brethren in Christ:
Beware of those on man's false Pre-tribulational Rapture theory who drop the label 'pre-trib' and just use the term "rapture" that was derived from the Latin.

Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 used the Greek word 'harpazo' which the KJV translators brought into English as "caught up".

But in Latin translations, Greek harpazo was translated to Latin raptus, which was translated to English as 'rapture', and is where the word rapture came to be used by certain groups.


Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 does point to the timing of Christ's coming to gather His saints...

1 Thess 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

The word "prevent" above is actually a Greek word that means 'precede' (i.e., go beforehand). Lord Jesus (through Paul) is saying those of us still alive shall not precede the asleep saints that have already died which Jesus will bring with Him when He comes. Why? Because they are already there with Him right now (2 Corinthians 5).

16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

That "trump of God" is Paul's "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52.

On that 'trump' is when the resurrection will happen, on the last day of this present world. That is when Jesus returns to gather His Church, on the last day. Not before the tribulation, but AFTER the tribulation, like He said in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27.

That above 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is telling us that very idea, that Jesus gathers His faithful Church on that same day as the resurrection on the last day of this present world.


Here is a detail Jesus gave that will happen on that day of His future return...

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

That is the "hour" Paul was pointing to in the 1 Thessalonians 4:16 verse, about the resurrection of the saints to that "resurrection of life" in Christ. That is also when that "resurrection of damnation" will also happen, which is about the wicked dead being raised on the last day of this world too. And that ain't... gonna' happen BEFORE the "great tribulation" time, but after the trib, on the last day, when Jesus comes.

 

[David in NJ]

What RAPTURE?

Brethren in Christ:
Beware of those on man's false Pre-tribulational Rapture theory who drop the label 'pre-trib' and just use the term "rapture" that was derived from the Latin.

Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 used the Greek word 'harpazo' which the KJV translators brought into English as "caught up".

But in Latin translations, Greek harpazo was translated to Latin raptus, which was translated to English as 'rapture', and is where the word rapture came to be used by certain groups.


Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 does point to the timing of Christ's coming to gather His saints...

1 Thess 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

The word "prevent" above is actually a Greek word that means 'precede' (i.e., go beforehand). Lord Jesus is saying those of us still alive shall not precede the asleep saints that have already died which Jesus will bring with Him when He comes. Why? Because they are already there with Him right now (2 Corinthians 5).

16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

That "trump of God" is Paul's "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52.

On that 'trump' is when the resurrection will happen, on the last day of this present world. That is when Jesus returns to gather His Church, on the last day. Not before the tribulation, but AFTER the tribulation, like He said in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27.

That above 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is telling us that very idea, that Jesus gathers His faithful Church on that same day as the resurrection on the last day of this present world.


Here is a detail Jesus gave that will happen on that day of His future return...

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

That is the "hour" Paul was pointing to in the 1 Thessalonians 4:16 verse, about the resurrection of the saints to that "resurrection of life" in Christ. That is also when that "resurrection of damnation" will also happen, which is about the wicked dead being raised on the last day of this world too. And that ain't... gonna' happen BEFORE the "great tribulation" time, but after the trib, on the last day, when Jesus comes.

Yeah, i've seen this stunt before.
By dropping the 'pre-trib' the pre-fibbers are just looking to draw the unsuspecting in to their deception.

 

[marks]

Yeah, i've seen this stunt before.
By dropping the 'pre-trib' the pre-fibbers are just looking to draw the unsuspecting in to their deception.

You've just smeared a lot of people with this broad brush.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

You've just smeared a lot of people with this broad brush.

Much love!

Brother marks,

i will always warn my Brethren that 'pre-trib rapture' is a LIE and only causes division.

Pre-trib rapture NEVER came out of the Mouth of God = Matt ch24 and Mat 4:4 and 1 John ch2 and 2 Thess ch2 and 1 Cor ch15

God spoke Post-Trib Second Coming from the very beginning = Genesis

Everyone who has been persuaded by the doctrines of men with pre-trib should drop it like a hot potato and return to the Scriptures.

Proverbs 30:5-6
Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.

 

[marks]

Brother marks,

i will always warn my Brethren that 'pre-trib rapture' is a LIE and only causes division.

Pre-trib rapture NEVER came out of the Mouth of God = Matt ch24 and Mat 4:4 and 1 John ch2 and 2 Thess ch2 and 1 Cor ch15

God spoke Post-Trib Second Coming from the very beginning = Genesis

Everyone who has been persuaded by the doctrines of men with pre-trib should drop it like a hot potato and return to the Scriptures.

Proverbs 30:5-6
Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.

You've ascribed evil intent to a lot of people including me. All the other rhetoric aside.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

You've ascribed evil intent to a lot of people including me. All the other rhetoric aside.

Much love!

Mature above the 'my feelings are hurt' and DESIRE TRUTH above 'popularity of doctrine'.

STOP the division amongst Brethren = 1 John 2:21 "no lie is of the truth"

The Apostle John agrees with OT Daniel and wrote = 1 John 2:18

Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

 

[marks]

Mature above the 'my feelings are hurt'

That's not what I'm saying, my brother. You haven't hurt my feelings at all, but you haven't spoken rightly. I tell you this in love, that you will consider your words.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

That's not what I'm saying, my brother. You haven't hurt my feelings at all, but you haven't spoken rightly. I tell you this in love, that you will consider your words.

Much love!

Thank You my Brother marks and received in love from you.

marks, we are not called to placing our trust in words of men

JESUS only spoke of a Post-Trib Second Coming = Gospel and Revelation

the Apostles only spoke of a Post-Trib(Antichrist comes before the LORD's Return) = 1 & 2 Thess, 1 John, Hebrews 9:28

the OT Prophets only spoke of a Post-Trib(Antichrist comes before the LORD's Return) = Daniel

Genesis chapters 1-7 is Post-Trib and all that follows

MATURITY of a Believer always leads to = "It is written" = Matt 4:4

You can and should walk away from falsehood(pre-trib rapture)

PEACE to You my Brother marks

 

[marks]

You can and should walk away from falsehood(pre-trib rapture)

We need to understand where we've failed to place a full significance on the words we read in Scripture, and come to understand where there are conflicts created with our various views. And in the seeking for harmony in the full and true meaning of each passage, we can find the truth that God laid out there for us to see.

It's not only about understanding this or that particular doctrine, but about how we go about reading the Bible, whether the Bible truly supplies authorative teaching. If the Bible is authorative, I know you agree it is, then by it's letters and words and sayings, no more, and no less, we will learn truth.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

We need to understand where we've failed to place a full significance on the words we read in Scripture, and come to understand where there are conflicts created with our various views. And in the seeking for harmony in the full and true meaning of each passage, we can find the truth that God laid out there for us to see.

It's not only about understanding this or that particular doctrine, but about how we go about reading the Bible, whether the Bible truly supplies authorative teaching. If the Bible is authorative, I know you agree it is, then by it's letters and words and sayings, no more, and no less, we will learn truth.

Much love!

And when a 'son of God' knows that his/her FATHER's Word can be trusted and feared(HIGHLY Revered) then we can have
boldness in this current 'day of evil' whereby = 1 Timothy 4:1-5

I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

Since 2021 no one has been able to bring forth a single 'pre-trib rapture' decaration and/or OT prophecy.

When the LORD JESUS CHRIST says HE is Coming after thr tribulation = Believe HIM

 

[marks]

Since 2021 no one has been able to bring forth a single 'pre-trib rapture' decaration and/or OT prophecy.

It was a mystery revealed by Paul, so of course there wouldn't be any mention in the OT or the Gospels. Not of any kind, not concerning either 1 Corinthians 15, "transformed at the last trump", or 1 Thessalonians 4, "caught up together with them in clouds". These were both "mysteries", from musterion, which means something unknowable without revelation.

That revelation was declared in, "behold, I tell you a mystery". This means, I'm telling you now something not before revealed, and that you could not know without this revelation.

This means that the OT prophets, and Jesus Himself, had not revealed the rapture of those "in Christ" in their prophecies or teachings.

There is in fact no explicit statement of the timing of the rapture. We've discussed this before. Were you interested at looking at it again? But not if your posts will be all about me believing and teaching a lie, or a fairy tale, or that stuff. It's all fluff, I'm looking for the meat of a discussion. Let me know if you are interested. We can review the evidence.

Much love!

 

[marks]

When the LORD JESUS CHRIST says HE is Coming after thr tribulation = Believe HIM

Of course He's coming after the tribulation, to stop the persecution so that not all of His Elect Nation Israel would be slaughtered. That's what He promised, and He will keep His promises.

We shouldn't read ourselves into Scriptures which are not about us.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

Of course He's coming after the tribulation, to stop the persecution so that not all of His Elect Nation Israel would be slaughtered. That's what He promised, and He will keep His promises.

We shouldn't read ourselves into Scriptures which are not about us.

Much love!

STRAIGHT-FORWARD TRUTH = no interpretation necessary


For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.
20And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

21“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘Look, He is there!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

24“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

 

[David in NJ]

It was a mystery revealed by Paul, so of course there wouldn't be any mention in the OT or the Gospels. Not of any kind, not concerning either 1 Corinthians 15, "transformed at the last trump", or 1 Thessalonians 4, "caught up together with them in clouds". These were both "mysteries", from musterion, which means something unknowable without revelation.

That revelation was declared in, "behold, I tell you a mystery". This means, I'm telling you now something not before revealed, and that you could not know without this revelation.

This means that the OT prophets, and Jesus Himself, had not revealed the rapture of those "in Christ" in their prophecies or teachings.

There is in fact no explicit statement of the timing of the rapture. We've discussed this before. Were you interested at looking at it again? But not if your posts will be all about me believing and teaching a lie, or a fairy tale, or that stuff. It's all fluff, I'm looking for the meat of a discussion. Let me know if you are interested. We can review the evidence.

Much love!

FALSEHOOD = "It was a mystery revealed by Paul, so of course there wouldn't be any mention in the OT or the Gospels."

Paul could SEE the Mystery from the OT SCriptures (and so can i)...................HalelluYAH

O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
4Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
5Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?—
6 OT = just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
7 OT = Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
8 OT = the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”
9)OT = So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29NT=OT And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[marks]

FALSEHOOD = "It was a mystery revealed by Paul, so of course there wouldn't be any mention in the OT or the Gospels."

This is the meaning of the Greek "musterion". "Behold, I tell you a mystery", this is a specific saying with a specific meaning. "Look, I'm telling you something no one has ever said anything about before." It's just what the word means. You can research this if you choose to give this a fair hearing.

Much love!

 

[marks]

STRAIGHT-FORWARD TRUTH = no interpretation necessary


For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.
20And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

21“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘Look, He is there!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

24“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

This "Elect" is the chosen nation Israel. This is not a pre-Pauline revelation of the rapture of those "In Christ". This is the prophesied regathering of Israel to her promised land, just the same as prophesied throughout the Prophets, and now here by Jesus.

This is an example of reading yourself into a passage that is not about you. A parallel passage is Joel 3, the regathering of Israel, and THEN the gathering of the Gentiles to be judged. But there are many many others. Ezekiel 36, 39, Zechariah 14 have strong parallels.

Much love!

 

[L.A.M.B.]

And when a 'son of God' knows that his/her FATHER's Word can be trusted and feared(HIGHLY Revered) then we can have
boldness in this current 'day of evil' whereby = 1 Timothy 4:1-5

I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

Since 2021 no one has been able to bring forth a single 'pre-trib rapture' decaration and/or OT prophecy.

When the LORD JESUS CHRIST says HE is Coming after thr tribulation = Believe HIM

Happy two yr Anniversary on CB !
Pssst, it's not gonna ever happen so please keep breathing.
Praying you are continuing to grow strong in body

 

[David in NJ]

This "Elect" is the chosen nation Israel. This is not a pre-Pauline revelation of the rapture of those "In Christ". This is the prophesied regathering of Israel to her promised land, just the same as prophesied throughout the Prophets, and now here by Jesus.

This is an example of reading yourself into a passage that is not about you. A parallel passage is Joel 3, the regathering of Israel, and THEN the gathering of the Gentiles to be judged. But there are many many others. Ezekiel 36, 39, Zechariah 14 have strong parallels.

Much love!

OK marks, now is the Time to turn away from 'human conjecture' and have complete faith in the Holy Word of God.

#1.) John 15:16 - "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. These things I command you, that you love one another."

#2.) John 17:20 - “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

#3.) Ephesians 1:7 - "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

Brother marks, advance to Higher Ground where we all bow our knees to the Throne of TRUTH.

 

[marks]

OK marks, now is the Time to turn away from 'human conjecture' and have complete faith in the Holy Word of God.

Any post that begins this way I discount right out of the gate, and I'm hardly inclined to continue.

Much love!