I have noticed the following Negatives about the 'rapture'...

[rebuilder 454]

Jesus doesn't return with resurrected and raptured believers. He returns with his angels!

All rapture verses are post-trib!

rev 19
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

See that?
The saints on horses DURING THE TRIB,AND IN HEAVEN. Saints riding with Jesus to battle on earth.
the rapture was 7 yeaars prior,and the rev14 gathering 3 or 4 years prior.
Now ALL ARE IN HEAVEN during the trib.
But maybe you got a verse????
you claim you do.
I am willing to see the first postrib rapture verse that someone can come up with.



BTW,
In the Noah example by Jesus ,Noah enters the ark PRETRIB and after rising high into the sky, he RETURNS WITH GODS PEOPLE POSTRIB.
In the Lot story, Lot is removed entirely to another location PRETRIB . God removed his people prior to Judgement in both cases.

 

[rwb]

1 Cor ch15 "but each one in his own order." is speaking of the RESURRECTION

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.

Also - God only spoke 'Post-Trib' in His Word from Genesis forward

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

We are spiritually raised ALIVE, each one of us in his/her order of death because Christ has resurrected from the dead and defeated death for all who have spiritual life through Him before they die. This is NOT the resurrection that shall be bodily on the last day when the last trump sounds.

Though I don't agree with the doctrine that says we can know these things from Genesis by the days of Adam's life, I do agree that there will NOT be a bodily resurrection of ALL who are in the graves, and the saints being caught up to meet the Lord in the air until the tribulation of all the days that follow the words of Christ from the Mount of Olives have come to an end.

 

[rebuilder 454]

When Paul writes, "but each one in his own order" he is NOT speaking of the rapture of our bodies in an hour coming, when the last trump sounds, when Christ returns. Paul is speaking of the raising of the dead in Christ after their bodies have died. The instruction from Paul regarding those who had already died before Christ came begins in 1Cor 15:12. He says Christ has been raised from the dead which proves the dead IN CHRIST, though physically dead are not spiritually dead. They are alive because Christ has defeated death, and all who die in Him will spiritually ascend to heaven where Christ is. For this reason Paul says, "but each one in his own order." That's why those who had already died believing in Christ have not perished, because since Christ is the sacrifice for sin, and by His resurrection He defeated death, death is no more for whosoever is of faith in Him.

Scripture is abundantly clear that believers shall suffer in this life. And this is associated with the proclamation of the Gospel being sent unto all the nations of the world. It is "AFTER" the tribulation of all the days that have come and shall come as the Gospel is preached that Christ will return again, and even though we don't know when that day shall be, every eye shall Him when He comes to make all things new again.

Noah went up over a mile and was there for that entire tribulation. then returned postrib. (not anything of a postrib removel dynamic.
Same with Lot, He is in no way a post judgement dynamic.
Even the 144k are in heaven ,gathered DURING THE TIB
Then, in the same chap. Jesus is on a cloud with yet ANOTHER GATHERING, mid trib or so.

I really can not fathom anyone still following postrib teachers at this late hour.
Time for believers to see truth in Gods word and stop reframing the Holy Bible.

 

[David in NJ]

rev 19
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

See that?
The saints on horses DURING THE TRIB,AND IN HEAVEN. Saints riding with Jesus to battle on earth.
the rapture was 7 yeaars prior,and the rev14 gathering 3 or 4 years prior.
Now ALL ARE IN HEAVEN during the trib.
But maybe you got a verse????
you claim you do.
I am willing to see the first postrib rapture verse that someone can come up with.



BTW,
In the Noah example by Jesus ,Noah enters the ark PRETRIB and after rising high into the sky, he RETURNS WITH GODS PEOPLE POSTRIB.
In the Lot story, Lot is removed entirely to another location PRETRIB . God removed his people prior to Judgement in both cases.

Good Morning

#1 - Noah entered the ARK in POST-TRIB prophetic view for all to see.

#2 - Everyone we SEE in Revelation are the 'spirits' of the Saints who died on earth, where their bones lie in the earth waiting for Revelation ch19 to take place = Scriptural Validation is Mark 12:24-27 and 1 Thess 3:11-13 & 4:13-18 and Revelation ch6 ch7 ch11 ch12 ch13 ch14

#3 - C if U can find the LORD Jesus and the Apostles speaking of a 7 Year Period

 

[David in NJ]

We are spiritually raised ALIVE, each one of us in his/her order of death because Christ has resurrected from the dead and defeated death for all who have spiritual life through Him before they die. This is NOT the resurrection that shall be bodily on the last day when the last trump sounds.

Though I don't agree with the doctrine that says we can know these things from Genesis by the days of Adam's life, I do agree that there will NOT be a bodily resurrection of ALL who are in the graves, and the saints being caught up to meet the Lord in the air until the tribulation of all the days that follow the words of Christ from the Mount of Olives have come to an end.

100% GOOD rwb except for the unbelief in Genesis/Revelation

"the doctrine that says we can know these things from Genesis by the days of Adam's life"

BELIEVE it for GOD said it = Genesis is the FOUNDATION

 

[rebuilder 454]

Matt ch 24 & 1 Thess & 2 Thess & 1 Cor ch15 & 1 John are POST-TRIB Gathering of the Elect that occurs AFTER the Resurrection of the Just.

Mat 24 has 2 gathering ,one befor, and one after ti trib...so that works not in your favor,but the opposite

I thes is the rapture with the dead raised fFIRST. (WHICH WORKS AGAINST YOU AS YOU have the dead raised after the living gathered in rev 14)
Nothing there of a postrib rapture in those other verses.
Where ar you seeing a POSTRIB RAPTURE in your other verses?????

 

[rwb]

David,

Yes, the closest theory on the rapture/resurrection is "Post-Tribulation", meaning after tribulation. The problem however, and why I in fact say it too is wrong, is because most who believe the "post" theory to be true, believe it comes as a one-time worldly event, which it is not. That is the point of Paul's clarification, saying, "but each one in his own order."

The rapture/resurrection is indeed a one-time event--but not in the world, and only in heaven where there is no passing of time ("no shadow of turning").

As for the "tribulation" component being before as opposed to after, yes, all who are born of the flesh suffer tribulation before the rapture/resurrection, "then comes the end." The greatest of which was all those collective tribulations placed upon Christ at the cross. Therefore, it is written, we "have been" crucified with Christ. It is at that time in everyone's life that the sun of this world becomes darkened, and the moon no longer gives its light, for "the light of men" is Christ.

When Paul speaks these words "but each in his own order" he is speaking of what has become of those who had already died before Christ came. Paul tells us they have not perished because Christ has resurrected from the dead! Christ is the firstfruits of "them that slept". IOW since Christ has been raised, they too who have died IN HIM are NOT dead, because they are now spiritually alive with Christ in heaven. Before ascending to heaven Christ through His Spirit went to those who had already died and rescued them, taking them with Him spiritually alive to heaven.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

In 1Cor 15 Paul is proving that those who are in/of Christ NEVER perish, because even death of our body cannot kill our living (spirit) soul.

In this chapter Paul finally tells us when we can expect to be reunited with our new immortal & incorruptible bodies when the last trump sounds, and that will be when TIME given the Church for proclaiming the Gospel shall be no longer. That's when the "mystery" of the Kingdom of God shall be spiritually complete. After the final trumpet sounds there shall be no more saved.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

[David in NJ]

Mat 24 has 2 gathering ,one befor, and one after ti trib...so that works not in your favor,but the opposite

I thes is the rapture with the dead raised fFIRST. (WHICH WORKS AGAINST YOU AS YOU have the dead raised after the living gathered in rev 14)
Nothing there of a postrib rapture in those other verses.
Where ar you seeing a POSTRIB RAPTURE in your other verses????

Please post the exact scripture(s) where you see in a gathering Matt ch24 BEFORE verse 29

Nothing works against me because i am not against the Words of God = JESUS is the Resurrection = John 11:20-27

Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. 21Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”
23Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

24Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

27She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

 

[MatthewG]

I have a question for those who believe that they will be raised again bodily?


Is the reason that many people believe that they will raise like this, because of Yahava, raising his Son whom was begotten at resurrection in his body that he had perished away in for 3 days?

From my view, today people are resurrected spiritually, given either resurrection of judgement or resurrection of life - however all of this is on the spiritual plane where God resides.

Perhaps the viewpoint is that God will be on this earth and that people will have a body but it will never die and you could live a life on a new earth or something?

Just curious to an answer as perhaps it does deal with the resurrection of Jesus; just to sum something up, if Jesus Christ never came back in his body that he had before, there would have never been confirmation that Death had been conqured.

 

[rwb]

100% GOOD rwb except for the unbelief in Genesis/Revelation

"the doctrine that says we can know these things from Genesis by the days of Adam's life"

BELIEVE it for GOD said it = Genesis is the FOUNDATION

That's mere speculation by you David. Because you cannot prove the assumption by the number of days Adam lived. I do believe God, and since you have not proven what you assume, I cannot agree that God has given you alone this revelation.

blessings

 

[rebuilder 454]

Good Morning

#1 - Noah entered the ARK in POST-TRIB prophetic view for all to see.

#2 - Everyone we SEE in Revelation are the 'spirits' of the Saints who died on earth, where their bones lie in the earth waiting for Revelation ch19 to take place = Scriptural Validation is Mark 12:24-27 and 1 Thess 3:11-13 & 4:13-18 and Revelation ch6 ch7 ch11 ch12 ch13 ch14

#3 - C if U can find the LORD Jesus and the Apostles speaking of a 7 Year Period

Oh, wow, my bible has nothing of Noah entering the ark after the flood.
Where is that, and what version????

#2 - Everyone we SEE in Revelation are the 'spirits' of the Saints who died on earth, where their bones lie in the earth waiting for Revelation ch19 to take place = Scriptural Validation is Mark 12:24-27 and 1 Thess 3:11-13 & 4:13-18 and Revelation ch6 ch7 ch11 ch12 ch13 ch14

In the rapture they are taken bodily. So if you read rev 19,the wedding supper has ended. You are making a pretrib rapture point sir.
Not to mention, your doctrine has the dead in Christ gathered after the living of rev 14, so on every front, you are wrong.

3 - C if U can find the LORD Jesus and the Apostles speaking of a 7 Year Period

Prove it is not 7 years. 3.5x2 =7

 

[rebuilder 454]

Peace my Brother in the Family of Christ,

Holes are for donuts.

The Whole Truth is for Believers who love the Truth.

POST-TRIB Gathering declared by JESUS from "the four corners of the earth AND from one end of Heaven to the other"
a.) Matt ch24
b.) 1 Thess 4:13-18
c.) Ephesians 2:11-22
d.) Daniel 12:1-3

a.) Matt ch24 Jesus declares 2 comings in ch 24...so,nothing there

b.) 1 Thess 4:13-18 The dead IN CHRIST rise first, BEFORE the living. You have them resurrrected AFTER the living gathered in rev 14. So,again,nothing there

c.) Ephesians 2:11-22 Can not find a rapture verse in any of those verses. Maybe expound on it. I see zero

d.) Daniel 12:1-3 "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

That says zero postrib anything. In fact,it indicates "at that time"! Definitely a plus for the pretrib raptire position, and zero there to form a man made postrib doctrine.

 

[marks]

@marks

Do you agree and hold to this statement: "Any debating should include honesty, and a willingness to be corrected by the word."

Do you think I wouldn't? What actually do you want to say? I value direct communication.

Much love!

 

[marks]

"pre-trib is falsehood/heresy/human conjecture, throw it ( 17-part Bible study with Dozens Of
Scriptures, Rightly Divided ) into the circular bin, it is a lie from the pits of hell, pre-fibbers
are just looking to draw the unsuspecting in to their deception." etc, etc. etc.

How are such comments and name-calling an open, honest, and encouraging discussion/debate
to point us to The Truth of The Holy Spirit, and abiding by Bible study Rules? Or should I just
toss them into the circular bin also?

I've very rarely over the years have enjoyed a real actual honest and open and friendly and complete rapture timing debate. Most can't seem to manage either the material or the feelings.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

Oh, wow, my bible has nothing of Noah entering the ark after the flood.
Where is that, and what version????





In the rapture they are taken bodily. So if you read rev 19,the wedding supper has ended. You are making a pretrib rapture point sir.
Not to mention, your doctrine has the dead in Christ gathered after the living of rev 14, so on every front, you are wrong.




Prove it is not 7 years. 3.5x2 =7

Brother,

You have given some good laughing points here - thank you

Noah and the world experienced the Greatest Tribulation the world had ever witnessed prior to The FLOOD.
The Flood was God's Wrath upon those who were the cause of this Great Tribulation Period.

Revelation ch19 welcomes all Saints to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb = it does not end in ch19

Then the angel told me to write, “Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.”
Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out in a loud voice to all the birds flying overhead, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings and commanders and mighty men, of horses and riders, of everyone slave and free, small and great.”

 

[marks]

There is no pre-trib declaration or prophecy in the entire Scriptures = THIS should be your RED FLAG ALERT

There is no explicit rapture timing statement given in the Bible period. None. Not One. Does that catch your attention?

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

Do you think I wouldn't? What actually do you want to say? I value direct communication.

Much love!

OK, now let us make it mandatory in our hearts before the LORD and allow the Holy Spirit to be our Guide as we submit to Truth.
"Thy word is Truth"

 

[marks]

However, look no further then Genesis chapters 1 thru 7 that only speak of POST-TRIB Coming.

No. That's the meaning of Musterion. It was not contained in the OT. Have you researched that word? What can you tell me about it?

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

There is no explicit rapture timing statement given in the Bible period. None. Not One. Does that catch your attention?

Much love!

How can you say such a thing?

Your statement directly contradicts and goes against the words of Christ, the Apostles and the OT Prophets.

 

[David in NJ]

No. That's the meaning of Musterion. It was not contained in the OT. Have you researched that word? What can you tell me about it?

Much love!

marks, this is another erroneous statement that goes against the words of God.

The "Musterion/Mystery" in FACT is contained in the OT Scriptures just as JESUS and the Apostles pointed out for us.

Currently, you are laying a foundation of falsehood for false doctrine.

1 John 2:21 = "no lie is of the truth"