I have noticed the following Negatives about the 'rapture'...

[rwb]

I have a question for those who believe that they will be raised again bodily?


Is the reason that many people believe that they will raise like this, because of Yahava, raising his Son whom was begotten at resurrection in his body that he had perished away in for 3 days?

From my view, today people are resurrected spiritually, given either resurrection of judgement or resurrection of life - however all of this is on the spiritual plane where God resides.

Perhaps the viewpoint is that God will be on this earth and that people will have a body but it will never die and you could live a life on a new earth or something?

Just curious to an answer as perhaps it does deal with the resurrection of Jesus; just to sum something up, if Jesus Christ never came back in his body that he had before, there would have never been confirmation that Death had been conqured.

I agree that at this time, or on this earth a spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is being spiritually built through the power of the Gospel and Holy Spirit. That Kingdom NOW is a spiritual Kingdom we enter in when we have been born again. And because we who are of faith, believe in Christ we know from His written Word that when Christ comes again we shall be bodily resurrected from the grave to condemnation or life.

Here Christ speaks of hearing His Word by the power of the Gospel and Spirit, and being born again, and spiritually entering the spiritual Kingdom of God.

John 5:25-26 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Here Christ speaks of the same bodily resurrection that Paul says shall come when the last trump sounds, and all who are in the graves shall hear His voice and be physically resurrected to life, or damnation.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[David in NJ]

@marks and @rebuilder 454

i have to go to Physical Therapy now for my hip.

See you in a couple of hours.

P.S. = Read Genesis ch1 thru ch7

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Hi Ronald,

What you believe doesn't bother me, just would like to suggest that I could be wrong about the viewpoint but it sounds like either spiritualism, or idealism concerning the revelation, with a mix of futurism.

There is nothing wrong with your viewpoint as it is subjective to you personally.

You are an Amillenmialist, of course what I say will sound off to you. You will soon be taken by surprise when we are all ushered into the Great Tribulation and will scratch yoir head and wrestle with your Preterist views for awhile until you finally dismiss them. Get ready.

 

[rwb]

@marks and @rebuilder 454

i have to go to Physical Therapy now for my hip.

See you in a couple of hours.

P.S. = Read Genesis ch1 thru ch7

I hope and pray you are doing well David, and that PT will help you to fully recover!

 

[marks]

marks, this is another erroneous statement that goes against the words of God.

The "Musterion/Mystery" in FACT is contained in the OT Scriptures just as JESUS and the Apostles pointed out for us.

Currently, you are laying a foundation of falsehood for false doctrine.

1 John 2:21 = "no lie is of the truth"

You should learn that word. Don't eschew learning, and then, having learned, make yourself accountable to what you know.

Much love!

 

[marks]

How can you say such a thing?

Because it's true. Show me wrong, but you cannot. It's not there.

Much love!

 

[MatthewG]

You are an Amillenmialist, of course what I say will sound off to you. You will soon be taken by surprise when we are all ushered into the Great Tribulation and will scratch yoir head and wrestle with your Preterist views for awhile until you finally dismiss them. Get ready.

I doubt it but okay. Amillenialist? I dont even know what they believe...

It's bad to assume sir.

Especially if we have never really dialouged before.

 

[MatthewG]

It is amazing how much people will battle out views, ... Which can be done in a well adjusted manner.

Your views dont make you Christian.

Your love, will show you are disciples of Him.

Faith and love will matter at the end of ones life...

Always remember that.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I have a question for those who believe that they will be raised again bodily?

Do you have a problem with Jesus bodily ressurrection? His body was transformed into a spiritual body - capable of appearing and disappearing in both dimensions - as angels do. They touched Him, saw His scars, He ate with them. He met the Disciples in Galilee. Do you think He walked for three days to get there? No, it took Him no time at all to appear there, traveling via the spiritual dimension, then back into ours.

From my view, today people are resurrected spiritually

Yes. Souls are in heaven now, but are still awaiting eternal resurrected bodies like Jesus has. Their spirits will be joined to this new body wotj the freedom tonasxend and descend in and out of heaven. Likely we will be doing that during the Millennial Kingdom.

 

[MatthewG]

Do you have a problem with Jesus bodily ressurrection? His body was transformed into a spiritual body - capable of appearing and disappearing in both dimensions - as angels do. They touched Him, saw His scars, He ate with them. He met the Disciples in Galilee. Do you think He walked for three days to get there? No, it took Him no time at all to appear there, traveling via the spiritual dimension, then back into ours.

No, and I dont know. I just have faith that he was resurrected.

Yes. Souls are in heaven now, but are still awaiting eternal resurrected bodies like Jesus has. Their spirits will be joined to this new body wotj the freedom tonasxend and descend in and out of heaven. Likely we will be doing that during the Millennial Kingdom.

Okay.

 

[keithr]

Make no mistake, pre-trib is a heresy for it directly contradicts the OT Prophets, ...

Here are some clues from the Old Testament that the church does not go through the Great Tribulation, i.e. the rapture is pre-tribulation.

Isaiah 26:

19) Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.​

[Refers to the resurrection]​

20) Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.​

​

[The resurrected Christians have a home in our Father's house - John 14:2-3. This verse alludes to the church being raptured and hiding during the tribulation.]​

21) For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.​

​

[The Great Tribulation.]​

Psalm 27:

5) For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.​

​

[During the "time of trouble" the church will be hidden in God's house, and they will be set upon a rock, i.e. Jesus.]​

Psalm 57:

1) Be merciful unto me, O God, be merciful unto me: for my soul trusteth in thee: yea, in the shadow of thy wings will I make my refuge, until these calamities be overpast.​

​

[Again, alludes to the church being hidden during a time of trouble.]​

Psalm 83 (MKJV):

3) They take shrewd counsel against Your people, and plot against Your hidden ones.​

​

[The nations conspire against God's people Israel and plot against the church, who God hides by rapturing them.]​

Zephaniah 2 (WEB):

3) Seek Yahweh, all you humble of the land, who have kept his ordinances. Seek righteousness. Seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden in the day of Yahweh’s anger.​

​

[The church will be hidden during the day of God's wrath - the Great Tribulation.]​

Another example, or type, is Enoch, who was caught up (raptured) before the tribulation of the flood - prophetic of the church being raptured before the Great Tribulation - the outpouring of the wrath of God.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I doubt it but okay. Amillenialist? I dont even know what they believe...

It's bad to assume sir.

Especially if we have never really dialouged before.

Really? Let's clear up now.
1. Do you believe that the events in Revelation 6-20 will literally take place or that they have already taken place?
2. More specifically, do you believe in a literal Millennial Kingdom _ on earth _ after the Great Tribulation is over _ that will literally be ruled by Jesus _ physically seen, present and worshipped IN JERUSALEM?

 

[marks]

20) Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.[The resurrected Christians have a home in our Father's house - John 14:2-3. This verse alludes to the church being raptured and hiding during the tribulation.]
21) For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Revelation 12:14 KJV
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The rapture, and the church itself, were mysteries revealed by Paul. This passage in Isaiah concerns Israel and not the church.

Much love!

 

[MatthewG]

Really? Let's clear up now.
1. Do you believe that the events in Revelation 6-20 will literally take place or that they have already taken place?
2. More specifically, do you believe in a literal Millennial Kingdom _ on earth _ after the Great Tribulation is over _ that will literally be ruled by Jesus _ physically seen, present and worshipped IN JERUSALEM?

Just a Christian who believes everything has been fulfilled by JEsus Christ, that has done everything. Sin is done away with, Satan and his angels, the Beast, the false prophet, the white throne judgement has happened. The renewed chapters of 21-22, show the heavenly kingdom in my opinion.

Also believe though everything is completed that doesn't mean that people whom become adopted into the Kingdom have no hope; as the hope is to be in the kingdom one day after this life, and a life is changed by and through the death burial and resurrection of Christ, if they so desire to follow after Yeshua.

Growing and maturing in the spirit is primary for the Christian in their life, regardless of there ups and downs, they will continue to seek after Yahava.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Just a Christian who believes everything has been fulfilled by JEsus Christ, that has done everything. Sin is done away with, Satan and his angels, the Beast, the false prophet, the white throne judgement has happened. The renewed chapters of 21-22, show the heavenly kingdom in my opinion.

Also believe though everything is completed that doesn't mean that people whom become adopted into the Kingdom have no hope; as the hope is to be in the kingdom one day after this life, and a life is changed by and through the death burial and resurrection of Christ, if they so desire to follow after Yeshua.

Growing and maturing in the spirit is primary for the Christian in their life, regardless of there ups and downs, they will continue to seek after Yahava.

Thank you. That is Preterism and also Amillennialism. Now you know.
Btw we have communicated a dozen times in the past on the same subject - look it up by doing a search with both our names.
We had no lengthy debates though as you typically respond by just saying thank you for your input.

 

[MatthewG]

What? Is Amillennialism?

I dont believe I am that... and I dont remember our conversations.

 

[marks]

He didn't ascribe evil intent to a lot of people. I understood him as labeling pre-trib being evil.

Yeah, i've seen this stunt before.
By dropping the 'pre-trib' the pre-fibbers are just looking to draw the unsuspecting in to their deception.

People intent on drawing the unsuspecting into their deception.

Yup! We're just deceivers, and predators.

Much love!

 

[MatthewG]

amil·len·ni·al·ism. ¦ā- plural -s. : the denial that an earthly millennium of universal righteousness and peace will either precede or follow the second advent of Jesus Christ compare postmillennialism, premillennialism.

There is peace on earth for people who come to Yahava. Peace with-in their fleshly state (Or peace with Yahava which Jesus Christ brings forth to a believer). Some even change from always doing unrighteousness to doing righteousness - on (Earth) - which God had created Adam from...

So... meh.

I dont need these things to describe me, @Ronald David Bruno.

 

[marks]

These are the only two prophets who have not died in Jerusalem = not yet but soon.

Wasn't Jeremiah murdered in Egypt?

Much love!

 

[marks]

There is a logical explanation as to why there are so many views _ yet we are all guided by the Holy Spirit. His end time plan is mysterious and the order of events are uncertain because He planned it that way. Every generation needed to have this sense of imminency of His return, and readiness. The 1st century disciples believed this as we believe it now, though the ducks seemed to be more lined up in this generation.
"The day and the hour ... only the Father knows", was how a Galilean wedding was planned. Jesus was from Galilee and so used that frame of reference. The parable of the ten virgins teaches us to be ready.

The Galilean Bride and Groom were betrothed a year before their wedding. They knew close to the week when they were to be ready. All the prepararions were made and during that week they were dressed, ready to go, ( with enough oil in their candles); and even went to bed that way, anticipating to receive the announcement at any time. The Father knew the day and the hour only. He would then tell his Son, go get your Bride and in excitement he rised up and went outside and blew the trumpet as he walked through the town. Everyone needed to be ready. The wedding party, brides maids and guests heard the shofar sounds and got up quickly to join the procession through town. The Groom arrived at his Brides home and she was ready and beautiful. They lift her up ( as if raptured and some used the expression "flown") and she is carried to the Father's house. Everyone enters and then the door is shut. If you weren't ready, you missed out. The ceremony and feast lasted a week.

That said, likey the Trumpets are blown quickly, so the events are accumulative, they take time to unfold. Though they are written down one at a time, it doesn't mean they can't all be released quickly. The Bowls could be released quickly as well. So before the devastation actually is fully realized, we could be taken up.
I still believe the 7th Trumpet is the last.

Can you point me to historical sources for this information? I've heard it told for years, but I've never been able to find this in Josephus, or Edersheim, or anyone!

Much love!