I have noticed the following Negatives about the 'rapture'...

[marks]

Curious of your thoughts as ones believe in topics such as this influences other beliefs such as eschatological views.

Those who believe Israel and the church are the same will never agree with those who think Israel and the church are different. Those who believe that the Bible is written as a allegory will not agree with those who believe the Bible is propositional.

I think there are several things like that.

Much love!

 

[marks]

He was not resurrected as a human being (that would be taking back his sacrifice).

How so? I don't see that. Resurrection doesn't make His death not having happened. It still happened. That was the sacrifice.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

I hope and pray you are doing well David, and that PT will help you to fully recover!

Thank You rwb = your love and prayers are very much appreciated and they are powerful.

 

[David in NJ]

Wasn't Jeremiah murdered in Egypt?

Much love!

My post there was in haste, so let us look at the parameter which our LORD assessed on this = Matthew 23:37

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! Look, your house is left to you desolate.
For I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

i feel at liberty to say that the LORD included all types of persecution and not just 'death' against the true prophets.

Jeremiah was cast into a pit and left to die but was rescued.
In those days the pits may have included garbage, dead animals and/or human waste.

 

[marks]

Have you not considered the evidence of Revelation 11:5-6? WEB:

(5) If anyone desires to harm them, fire proceeds out of their mouth and devours their enemies. If anyone desires to harm them, he must be killed in this way.​

(6) These have the power to shut up the sky, that it may not rain during the days of their prophecy. They have power over the waters, to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.​

Elijah had the authority to call down fire from heaven to kill people, and to prevent it from raining. But who had the authority to turn water to blood and bring plagues - that was Moses, not Enoch.

They will have the power to strike the earth with "every plague", exceeding the power of Moses or Elijah.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I have debated them for years.
I have never seen one postrib rapture verse. None.

I likewise have debated this for decades. Occassionally I come across someone who will have a reasonable debate through to the end, and I've learned much. I've studied each of the main views, even considering whether to change my view, however, in the final analysis, pre-trib timing is the only view that doesn't create a host of contradictions.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

People intent on drawing the unsuspecting into their deception.

Yup! We're just deceivers, and predators.

Much love!

Marketing Ploy
Intentionally leaving out 'pre-trib' is a form of deception for the unsuspecting, when the Poster full well knows that the purpose is to equate 'pre-trib' to the true and authentic rapture as declared in 1 Thess 4:13-18.

Which, by the way, is a Post-Trib declaration by the Apostle Paul.

 

[marks]

Do you even realize what you just said here?

How it exposed your heart................."out of the heart a man speaks"

Um, do you realize what he said? He's asking you to drop the personal comments, and stick to the topic.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

Here are some clues from the Old Testament that the church does not go through the Great Tribulation, i.e. the rapture is pre-tribulation.

Isaiah 26:

19) Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.​

[Refers to the resurrection]​

20) Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.​

​

[The resurrected Christians have a home in our Father's house - John 14:2-3. This verse alludes to the church being raptured and hiding during the tribulation.]​

21) For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.​

​

[The Great Tribulation.]​

Psalm 27:

5) For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.​

​

[During the "time of trouble" the church will be hidden in God's house, and they will be set upon a rock, i.e. Jesus.]​

Psalm 57:

1) Be merciful unto me, O God, be merciful unto me: for my soul trusteth in thee: yea, in the shadow of thy wings will I make my refuge, until these calamities be overpast.​

​

[Again, alludes to the church being hidden during a time of trouble.]​

Psalm 83 (MKJV):

3) They take shrewd counsel against Your people, and plot against Your hidden ones.​

​

[The nations conspire against God's people Israel and plot against the church, who God hides by rapturing them.]​

Zephaniah 2 (WEB):

3) Seek Yahweh, all you humble of the land, who have kept his ordinances. Seek righteousness. Seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden in the day of Yahweh’s anger.​

​

[The church will be hidden during the day of God's wrath - the Great Tribulation.]​

Another example, or type, is Enoch, who was caught up (raptured) before the tribulation of the flood - prophetic of the church being raptured before the Great Tribulation - the outpouring of the wrath of God.

Isaiah 26:

19) Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

[Refers to the resurrection]

20) Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

Verse 20 refers to "the Wrath of the Lamb" = 1 Thess 1:10 = and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath.


Zephaniah 2 (WEB):
3) Seek Yahweh, all you humble of the land, who have kept his ordinances. Seek righteousness. Seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden in the day of Yahweh’s anger.

This also ONLY refers to "the Wrath of the Lamb" = and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath.

 

[marks]

@marks,

Good Morning,

@rebuilder 454 has made a challenge to us ="Any debating should include honesty, and a willingness to be corrected by the word."

i am not sure that he is willing to keep it though..........

Did you post this post for the purpose of disparaging @rebuilder 454 ?

Are you willing to keep it? Maybe it's something we need to answer for ourselves, and not worry about the other guy.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

Do you even realize what you just said here?

How it exposed your heart................."out of the heart a man speaks"

@rebuilder said: "You think a grown man such as myself is here to make fun of your picture of your family???"

This was his opening statement which is a personal insult just by insinuation.

insinuation

ĭn-sĭn″yoo͞-ā′shən

noun​

1. The act, process, or practice of insinuating.
2. Something insinuated, especially an artfully indirect, often derogatory suggestion.
3. The act of insinuating; a creeping or winding in; a tortuous or stealthy passage, as into crevices, or (figuratively) into favor or affection.

 

[marks]

Here is the TRUTH for @rebuilder 454 @GRACE ambassador @marks @David in NJ

The LORD loved us BEFORE we loved HIM = 1 John 4:19

The LORD loves us more then we love HIM = John 15:13

The LORD does not want division in our midst = 1 Corinthians chapter 1

The LORD commands us to love one another = John 13:34

This is an IMPOSSIBLE dictate for us to obey without our yielding to Christ, to His words and to the Holy Spirit of Truth.

Agreed! So please, please, please, yield to Christ, and yield to His truth!

:)

Much love!!!

 

[David in NJ]

Did you post this post for the purpose of disparaging @rebuilder 454 ?

Are you willing to keep it? Maybe it's something we need to answer for ourselves, and not worry about the other guy.

Much love!

This was posted as a 'contract' made by @rebuilder 454 which i fully agree/submit to and wanted to know if you are able to submit to it's demands.

 

[David in NJ]

Agreed! So please, please, please, yield to Christ, and yield to His truth!

:)

Much love!!!

You have not yet yielded to JESUS words = Matt 24:26-31

So if they tell you, ‘There He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.
For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’

At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

 

[marks]

I have met a few staunch pre-tribbers but I question is that their only hope?

How do you mean?

I'm as staunch pre-trib as you're likely to find, having searched the Bible on this question for many many years. All the other views have irreconcilable conflicts.

My only hope? My hope is in Jesus, He lives with me today, and today He will live His life through me, and today He will conform me a little more to be like Him. Maybe a lot more, there's a hope!!

And that blessed hope, that I will see Him, and He will fully transform me to be like Him!

Much love!

 

[rwb]

Here are some clues from the Old Testament that the church does not go through the Great Tribulation, i.e. the rapture is pre-tribulation.

Isaiah 26:

19) Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.​

[Refers to the resurrection]​

20) Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.​

​

[The resurrected Christians have a home in our Father's house - John 14:2-3. This verse alludes to the church being raptured and hiding during the tribulation.]​

21) For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.​

​

[The Great Tribulation.]​

Psalm 27:

5) For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.​

​

[During the "time of trouble" the church will be hidden in God's house, and they will be set upon a rock, i.e. Jesus.]​

Psalm 57:

1) Be merciful unto me, O God, be merciful unto me: for my soul trusteth in thee: yea, in the shadow of thy wings will I make my refuge, until these calamities be overpast.​

​

[Again, alludes to the church being hidden during a time of trouble.]​

Psalm 83 (MKJV):

3) They take shrewd counsel against Your people, and plot against Your hidden ones.​

​

[The nations conspire against God's people Israel and plot against the church, who God hides by rapturing them.]​

Zephaniah 2 (WEB):

3) Seek Yahweh, all you humble of the land, who have kept his ordinances. Seek righteousness. Seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden in the day of Yahweh’s anger.​

​

[The church will be hidden during the day of God's wrath - the Great Tribulation.]​

Another example, or type, is Enoch, who was caught up (raptured) before the tribulation of the flood - prophetic of the church being raptured before the Great Tribulation - the outpouring of the wrath of God.

The dead of vs 19 above are the dead found here:

Ephesians 2:1 (KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:5-6 (KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

This is prophesy from Isaiah pointing to the first advent of Christ, when He came in human flesh and gave His life an atonement for sin, then resurrected from the dead, proving He has power over death for all that believe in Him.

We will not be physically/bodily resurrected, according to Christ until after "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." That is AFTER "the tribulation of those days" NOT BEFORE! The following verses from the prophet Isaiah speak of the times that would be upon the earth as this great spiritual battle between the forces for good and the forces for evil comes to pass as the spiritual Kingdom of God is being built as the Gospel is sent unto all the nations of earth a witness to ALL nations. Isaiah warns the body of Christ (my people), Christians everywhere to hide themselves in Christ, who is the dwelling place for believers. Called Mount Sion, the spiritual habitation of God in heaven.

Isaiah 26:20-21 (KJV) Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Hebrews 12:22-24 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

 

[David in NJ]

Here are some clues from the Old Testament that the church does not go through the Great Tribulation, i.e. the rapture is pre-tribulation.

Isaiah 26:

19) Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.​

[Refers to the resurrection]​

20) Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.​

​

[The resurrected Christians have a home in our Father's house - John 14:2-3. This verse alludes to the church being raptured and hiding during the tribulation.]​

21) For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.​

​

[The Great Tribulation.]​

Psalm 27:

5) For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.​

​

[During the "time of trouble" the church will be hidden in God's house, and they will be set upon a rock, i.e. Jesus.]​

Psalm 57:

1) Be merciful unto me, O God, be merciful unto me: for my soul trusteth in thee: yea, in the shadow of thy wings will I make my refuge, until these calamities be overpast.​

​

[Again, alludes to the church being hidden during a time of trouble.]​

Psalm 83 (MKJV):

3) They take shrewd counsel against Your people, and plot against Your hidden ones.​

​

[The nations conspire against God's people Israel and plot against the church, who God hides by rapturing them.]​

Zephaniah 2 (WEB):

3) Seek Yahweh, all you humble of the land, who have kept his ordinances. Seek righteousness. Seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden in the day of Yahweh’s anger.​

​

[The church will be hidden during the day of God's wrath - the Great Tribulation.]​

Another example, or type, is Enoch, who was caught up (raptured) before the tribulation of the flood - prophetic of the church being raptured before the Great Tribulation - the outpouring of the wrath of God.

i forgot to say = Good Afternoon keithr and thank you for your post.

 

[marks]

I have met a few staunch pre-tribbers but I question is that their only hope?

Persecutions and tribulations, suffering and afflictions is the lot of those who follow Christ.

Wishing it to be true this fairy tale of escape from such great tribulations. Had it been around just after the severe persecution of the newly formed believers of " the way", or the many many tribulations of "until death" that all who love Christ have suffered since it's inception ; they would have waited in naught for such Darby heresy.

Where have you gotten the idea that I think that I'm not going to have tribulations??

What gives you the idea that I don't think I may suffer - terribly - for my faith? Paul wrote to Timothy that if you even just want to live Godly you will be persecuted.

Christians are being skinned alive in the modern day! Horrible things are being done, and could happen to any of us. Given the way the world is going, we are likely getting closer day by day.

Where is the faith to life day by day??

Much love!

 

[marks]

A serious question......
Can a believer of Christ Jesus follow wholeheartedly the doctrines of man and still rightly divide the word of God?

Just pondering a thought.....

Gee . . . how would you answer??

What a question!! More just pejorative, I suppose.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

Where have you gotten the idea that I think that I'm not going to have tribulations??

What gives you the idea that I don't think I may suffer - terribly - for my faith? Paul wrote to Timothy that if you even just want to live Godly you will be persecuted.

Christians are being skinned alive in the modern day! Horrible things are being done, and could happen to any of us. Given the way the world is going, we are likely getting closer day by day.

Where is the faith to life day by day??

Much love!

This is a Good Start = you just confirmed that 'pre-trib' rapture is a farce