'No Immortal Soul'? (Challenge)

[Lambano]

Not so sure any of that answers the question that soul doesn't go on or is not 'immortal', Lambano, at least in my opinion.

The soul goes on as long as God wants it to go on. If God can create it, He can also destroy it.

 

[MatthewG]

The soul goes on as long as God wants it to go on. If God can create it, He can also destroy it.

That begs the question then, is God willingly for any to perish? God can ruin (destroy) a soul - by not restoring it, but that restoring is by and through a persons choice to have the desire and want to be healed, of course that healing comes by and through Christ, as you stated before where - newness of spiritual life is born with-in that believer.

Thank you for even taking time to come by and consider these things, not sure if you will reply to my other statement as I replied to hastily and im trying to become a bit more adventurous by asking questions, to others rather than simply giving my statement blanded out without consideration of the other individual, which hopefully will help me in the long run as I continue to stay sober.

Another question that comes to mind is, whats the point in family? If a person dies with a family memeber they hated as christian and they are glad they are gone, but what does God think about that person who was faithless, does he hate them and not care about them to come to repentance? All these question just come to fruition with some thought put into them.

Love to you,
Matthew

 

[Lambano]

Does the soul that dies; still become resurrected? Jesus Christ, was a soul in hell, and God raised him up from the dead, therefore ... what does that make of the soul going on forward, or is 'immortal'.

...

Or does the soul of an individual cease to exist?

The Biblical witness is not consistent about that. Based on the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, I think Jesus is saying that that the soul has consciousness in Hades, and it's not pleasant. Revelation then speaks of a resurrection to judgement at the end of the age, after which Death and Hades are destroyed, along with those whose names are not written in the Book of Life. Whether or not the time spent in Hades is meant to be rehabilitative, the Bible doesn't say.

 

[MatthewG]

The Biblical witness is not consistent about that. Based on the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, I think Jesus is saying that that the soul has consciousness in Hades, and it's not pleasant. Revelation then speaks of a resurrection to judgement at the end of the age, after which Death and Hades are destroyed, along with those whose names are not written in the Book of Life. Whether or not the time spent in Hades is meant to be rehabilitative, the Bible doesn't say.

Thank you for your honesty.

Love you,
MAtthew

 

[Lambano]

That begs the question then, is God willingly for any to perish?

If what humans want is complicated, what God wants is probably more so. For example, what if what God wants is for all to turn to Christ of their own free will so that they will not perish? If this is so, then what God wants is conditioned on other factors that by definition He can only achieve by relinquishing direct control of.

 

[MatthewG]

If what humans want is complicated, what God wants is probably more so. For example, what if what God wants is for all to turn to Christ of their own free will so that they will not perish? If this is so, then what God wants is conditioned on other factors that by definition He can only achieve by relinquishing direct control of.

Is it not amazing the complexity and how we as human can't even understand God and his ways compared to our own? God is good, God is love, just, merciful, fair I would even suggest, and has only desires for good for his creation ever since Moses gave the law to the people Israel whom were chosen nation that brought forth the messiah.

Now, for those who are willingly to follow Christ now today, that is wonderful. Many can claim to follow Christ, but never know him, and never have a change of life, of having love for God and others. So a claim is just words, but action speaks louder than words is the old saying.

That still doesn't answer the question by scripture quoted - that 'the soul just stops existing, or doesn't go on, or is not immortal'.

Thank you for the thought-provoking question, Lambano
Love you,
Matthew

 

[ElieG12]

Eze. 18:4 Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Just curious. Thank you for your time.

If you can't find a verbatim scripture, it wouldn't make sense to post.

Revelation 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

 

[CadyandZoe]

Let me rephrase the question,

What makes you think that there is no immortal soul? You can quote scripture, and I could too but can you quote a scripture that directly states, "There is no immortal soul"?

It's understandable - that newness of spiritual life - which is eternal (age-during) life - comes starting when you come to Christ, in the death, burial and resurrection. That doesn't have anything to do with the question though.

Love you, Lambano,
Matthew

Why do you ask? What is at stake?

 

[MatthewG]

Why do you ask? What is at stake?

Hello CadyandZoe,

Is this cady or zoe? (I laughed thinking about writing that). Stake? or Steak cause I'll probably make a mistake cooking steak if you want it rare blue. In all fairness to the question, it's for people who continue to say there is no immortal soul, or it doesn't go on after this life, as of yet, no one has been able to prove that souls are extinguished like a flame which is interesting cause people are pretty darn sure that souls don't continue to go forward, for some reason, and they have their reasons even with Jesus and what he says.

And I can respect them in what they believe, as there is no condemnation for what one believes with me as that is what having discussions are about, not condemning others, but allowing others to freely express themselves.

It's a challenge, to challenge oneself and to be encouraged to read and look into the bible, in all fairness, love and respect.

Love to you,
Matthew

 

[MatthewG]

Eze. 18:4 Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.

Hello ElieG12,

How do you explain that to someone?

Would like to know your thoughts on that,

In love and respect,
Matthew

 

[MatthewG]

Revelation 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Hello Ronald,

How do you explain that to someone?

Would like to know your thoughts on that,

Thank you, in love and respect,
Matthew

 

[CadyandZoe]

Hello CadyandZoe,

Is this cady or zoe? (I laughed thinking about writing that). Stake? or Steak cause I'll probably make a mistake cooking steak if you want it rare blue. In all fairness to the question, it's for people who continue to say there is no immortal soul, or it doesn't go on after this life, as of yet, no one has been able to prove that souls are extinguished like a flame which is interesting cause people are pretty darn sure that souls don't continue to go forward, for some reason, and they have their reasons even with Jesus and what he says.

And I can respect them in what they believe, as there is no condemnation for what one believes with me as that is what having discussions are about, not condemning others, but allowing others to freely express themselves.

It's a challenge, to challenge oneself and to be encouraged to read and look into the bible, in all fairness, love and respect.

Love to you,
Matthew

I will give you a long answer but though it isn't a direct answer to your question, it will be worth it. Okay?

I'd like you to read John chapter 6 to familiarize yourself with the account of Jesus' dialog with the crowds. The chapter opens with the feeding of the five thousand when Jesus multiplied bread and fish for the crowd to eat and afterward, they collected leftovers. The crowds were so impressed that they followed Jesus across the lake seeking more food.

John 6:26-27

Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate some of the loaves and were filled. Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that lasts for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”​

Here the Lord contrasts bread that perishes with bread that lasts for eternal life. Both the bread that perishes and the bread that lasts for eternal life are sources of life. We eat bread because it keeps us alive. The first kind of bread will keep us alive for a while, but it goes stale and doesn't sustain us permanently. We always need more of that bread. By contrast, the second bread will also keep us alive but unlike the first bread, this bread never goes stale, and it sustains our life forever.

In either case, we can't sustain our own life. Whether we eat the bread that perishes or we eat the bread of eternal life, the source of that Life-sustaining substance is the Father. Additionally, a clear implication of our Lord's teaching here is the idea that life requires sustenance. Eternal life is not merely a condition of existence; Eternal life is never ending support and subsistence. We don't have life in ourselves; we will forever gain nourishment from God.

Therefore, I think it is safe to say that souls are not innately eternal; God gives life and he sustains life, and he has given his son to be the "bread" that sustains life forever. Nothing outside of God is eternal. Those who attain eternal are forever sustained by God.

If I am wrong, what we will see in the Bible is a clear statement that a soul will exist forever on its own. A human soul is either self-existent or it isn't. As far as I can tell, God is the only self-existent being that exists.

Hopefully this helps.

 

[MatthewG]

I will give you a long answer but though it isn't a direct answer to your question, it will be worth it. Okay?

I'd like you to read John chapter 6 to familiarize yourself with the account of Jesus' dialog with the crowds. The chapter opens with the feeding of the five thousand when Jesus multiplied bread and fish for the crowd to eat and afterward, they collected leftovers. The crowds were so impressed that they followed Jesus across the lake seeking more food.

John 6:26-27

Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate some of the loaves and were filled. Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that lasts for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”​

Here the Lord contrasts bread that perishes with bread that lasts for eternal life. Both the bread that perishes and the bread that lasts for eternal life are sources of life. We eat bread because it keeps us alive. The first kind of bread will keep us alive for a while, but it goes stale and doesn't sustain us permanently. We always need more of that bread. By contrast, the second bread will also keep us alive but unlike the first bread, this bread never goes stale, and it sustains our life forever.

Good morning Cadyandzoe,

You are right, Eating of the everlasting bread, and drinking of the eternal waters of Christ - produces spiritual maturity, by drinking milk, even eating some meat. It sustains a person's spiritually reborn again nature which is Christ within them, and they produce the good works of God which are prepared for believers who seek after God. It requires drinking his blood and eating his flesh, which is the death, burial, and resurrection. When people hear the words about God or Jesus - and they hear the truth, either they are drawn closer or they deny even the drawing at all, as it is a personal choice. It took me 26 years really to seek and search and read, and find out who the Lord Jesus was.

In either case, we can't sustain our own life. Whether we eat the bread that perishes or we eat the bread of eternal life, the source of that Life-sustaining substance is the Father. Additionally, a clear implication of our Lord's teaching here is the idea that life requires sustenance. Eternal life is not merely a condition of existence; Eternal life is never ending support and subsistence. We don't have life in ourselves; we will forever gain nourishment from God.

You are right, Nope, can't sustain the spirit of Christ, or the Holy Spirit on your own, you have to ask God to help you as Jesus says in luke 11:13, but what to ask for? Probably what the spirit produces, like stated in Galatians 5.

Therefore, I think it is safe to say that souls are not innately eternal; God gives life and he sustains life, and he has given his son to be the "bread" that sustains life forever. Nothing outside of God is eternal. Those who attain eternal are forever sustained by God.

That is your opinion, and I can respect that. From my perspective if you asked me, I believe God breathe a living soul to every creature that is born in this world, human and or even animal. Not sure if animals are in heaven exactly, but however - If God gave something... and it's part of him, whether it is spiritually born again or not, it seems that it will go on. Jesus said, that there is a judgement for both believers and unbelievers. However that is subjectively my opinion, and you may disagree with that if you would like to.

If I am wrong, what we will see in the Bible is a clear statement that a soul will exist forever on its own. A human soul is either self-existent or it isn't. As far as I can tell, God is the only self-existent being that exists.

Hopefully this helps.

Thank you for the discussion, and encouragement, and nothing but love to you,
Matthew

 

[CadyandZoe]

Good morning Cadyandzoe,

You are right, Eating of the everlasting bread, and drinking of the eternal waters of Christ - produces spiritual maturity, by drinking milk, even eating some meat. It sustains a person's spiritually reborn again nature which is Christ within them, and they produce the good works of God which are prepared for believers who seek after God. It requires drinking his blood and eating his flesh, which is the death, burial, and resurrection. When people hear the words about God or Jesus - and they hear the truth, either they are drawn closer or they deny even the drawing at all, as it is a personal choice. It took me 26 years really to seek and search and read, and find out who the Lord Jesus was.

You are right, Nope, can't sustain the spirit of Christ, or the Holy Spirit on your own, you have to ask God to help you as Jesus says in luke 11:13, but what to ask for? Probably what the spirit produces, like stated in Galatians 5.

That is your opinion, and I can respect that. From my perspective if you asked me, I believe God breathe a living soul to every creature that is born in this world, human and or even animal. Not sure if animals are in heaven exactly, but however - If God gave something... and it's part of him, whether it is spiritually born again or not, it seems that it will go on. Jesus said, that there is a judgement for both believers and unbelievers. However that is subjectively my opinion, and you may disagree with that if you would like to.


Thank you for the discussion, and encouragement, and nothing but love to you,
Matthew

The discussion will naturally venture into the quiddity of the soul. What is it? And why do you think it must "go on." We all know that the body doesn't survive. Why do we believe that the soul does?

Not trying to put you on the spot.

When Jesus was on the cross he said, "Father, into Your hands I entrust My spirit.” Luke 23:46 In light of an eternal soul, what a strange prayer.

Why was Stephen concerned with his spirit? Acts 7:59 "They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”

If souls are eternal, why do they need to be saved?

Just thinking aloud.

 

[MatthewG]

The discussion will naturally venture into the quiddity of the soul. What is it? And why do you think it must "go on." We all know that the body doesn't survive. Why do we believe that the soul does?

Not trying to put you on the spot.

When Jesus was on the cross he said, "Father, into Your hands I entrust My spirit.” Luke 23:46 In light of an eternal soul, what a strange prayer.

Why was Stephen concerned with his spirit? Acts 7:59 "They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”

If souls are eternal, why do they need to be saved?

Just thinking aloud.

CadyandZoe,

That was the subject matter, "No Immortal Soul" challenge (see original post).

If these are your thoughts, will simply let them be aloud.

Thank you for sharing.

Love to you,
Matthew

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Hello Ronald,

How do you explain that to someone?

Would like to know your thoughts on that,

Thank you, in love and respect,
Matthew

Well for this verse specifically, I remind people of what Paul wrote:

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So a saved man is a trichotomouos being- body, soul and spirit.

An unsaved man is bichotomous - only a body and soul, because of what happened in the garden.

Genesis 2:17

King James Version

​

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Now Adam and Eve did not physically die that day but a death did occur. Paul explained it in Ephesians:

Ephesians 2

King James Version

​

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

So even though we are alive we were dead somehow. that was not physically or soully, but spiritually. Our spirit were dead and when we got saved our spirits were quickened (made alive).

And as Paul said in corinthians:

2 Corinthians 5:6-9

King James Version

​

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

So when we are in our bodies we are away from the Lord. but when we die, our bodies go in th ground but our soul and spirit go to heaven.

I showed you the soul in the Rev. passage, and as for our spirits:

Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

This is why I believe in an immortal soul.

 

[MatthewG]

Well for this verse specifically, I remind people of what Paul wrote:

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So a saved man is a trichotomouos being- body, soul and spirit.

An unsaved man is bichotomous - only a body and soul, because of what happened in the garden.

Genesis 2:17​

​

King James Version​

​

​

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Now Adam and Eve did not physically die that day but a death did occur. Paul explained it in Ephesians:

Ephesians 2​

​

King James Version​

​

​

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

So even though we are alive we were dead somehow. that was not physically or soully, but spiritually. Our spirit were dead and when we got saved our spirits were quickened (made alive).

And as Paul said in corinthians:

2 Corinthians 5:6-9​

​

King James Version​

​

​

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

So when we are in our bodies we are away from the Lord. but when we die, our bodies go in th ground but our soul and spirit go to heaven.

I showed you the soul in the Rev. passage, and as for our spirits:

Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

This is why I believe in an immortal soul.

Hello Ronald,

Thank you sharing what you believe, with the use of scripture, which is makes you tend to believe that the soul is immortal,

All in good faith,
Matthew

 

[Meditation]

Just curious. Thank you for your time.

No immortal soul? The quest to find out if souls go on or not.

Many people are spot on sure, souls do not go on.

If you can't find a verbatim scripture, it wouldn't make sense to post.

If you would like to post, you will not be condemned for sharing, or what you may believe.

Gen 2:7- And the Lord ("Jehovah" removed) God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. -KJV

Gen 2:17- But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Where did He mention 'Hellfire'?

 

[Ghada]

Genesis 3:19
By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Need to think Biblically not naturally.

The body is shaped from the dust. The soul is created by the Spirit in the image of God.

All bodies of natural born creatures are as grass and dust mortal. Only man on earth has a living soul created in the image of God.