One baptism. Not two.
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You have cherry picked the scripture that “ You” believe.....to be the truth.
And ignored the Living word of God that I posted....the scripture that says a Born Again can never lose their salvation in Christ..
Fine no problem....
And the funny thing is...Not one has challenged me over the scripture that I posted.....red flag.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
In regard to "faith without works is dead" James does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith, and the works are the source of life in faith. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. Something that is dead cannot produce anything.
*It takes a living faith to produce works (Ephesians 2:5-10) just as it takes a living tree to produce fruit.*
So, James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works (bare profession of faith) demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, (James 2:14) then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Jesus did not lose Judas. Judas was already lost. Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)Rita can post large sections of Scripture and pretend to think she understands it all but in the end its another person cherry picking text to push their own wheelbarrow.
John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, BUT the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
@gpresdo - how many other Scriptures will be fulfilled at the judgement seat?
Rita states NONE LOST - Scripture states One of the 12
What of the millions upon millions of Christians who are born again to Rita's requirements only to crucify the Son of God afresh?
F2F
Syllogism
1. All given by the Father to Jesus are kept.
2. Judas was not kept.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father
Or, this way
1. None of those given to Jesus by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
2. Judas is lost.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father.
My question is...why are some on here, denying this truth of God’s word?
I have posted so much scripture on this..quite a few won’t even discuss or challenge me regarding the truth of God’s word.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase, he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).
Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY the wicked in Noah's day came in contact with the water and they all perished.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Maybe they are very satisfied with what they already believe and don't want to be confused with the facts. Also, church indoctrination can be very difficult to escape from. It's really a pride issue.
People have the right to believe what they want,
However, just because a person loses faith - people say they were never saved to begin with,
how do you know that for a fact though? And who gives you the authority to say otherwise?
Are you God to say such things?
They were partakers of the holy spirit, and fell away...
Just like Jesus talks about the Parable of Sowers,
Does God still care about them? Or does he no longer care for them and sees them as useless garbage?
Love to you,
Matthew
However, just because a person loses faith - people say they were never saved to begin with,
how do you know that for a fact though? And who gives you the authority to say otherwise?
Are you God to say such things?
Hebrews 6:4-6 New King James Version (NKJV)
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.They were partakers of the holy spirit, and fell away...
Just like Jesus talks about the Parable of Sowers,
Does God still care about them? Or does he no longer care for them and sees them as useless garbage?
Love to you,
Matthew
That’s exactly what I said to one, it was his pride...that wouldn’t allow him to hear the word of God..I also held onto pride, thought I knew it all at one time...I learnt absolutely nothing....not until I let go of this pride that I desperately wanted to hold onto..,..God HATES PRIDE...
How do we know it.
It’s God who knows it and we’ve posted tons of scripture to prove it...they were NEVER Born Again to begin with....anyway, believe what you like....we can’t discuss with someone who denies the word of God...you’ve completely dismissed everything we have posted.which was the word of God.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
The gospel is not about believing you can lose your salvation. The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). To “believe” the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.
In regard to Hebrews 6:4-6, the words, once enlightened, which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.
In regard to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive..
Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some mental assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these factors may be genuine Christians, yet these factors alone are not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of the Christian life (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification, etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet some draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth and do not believe to the saving of the soul, as we see in (Hebrews 10:39).
These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responded to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" or have "received the Spirit's pledge which is the guarantee of future inheritance." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)
In regard to tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." Do we merely "taste" into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13)
In regard to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for your argument.
In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is a sign of spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that the writer of Hebrews is talking about people who are not genuine believers.
*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.
It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not always easy to tell them apart.
face2face
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Mail, you are stating the obvious!
Jesus was given Judas but he rejected his Lord...there will be many who qualify for Hebrew 6:4-6 (Judas was one such example because he didn’t heed the warnings...like Rita) As I said, anyone can say with hindsight that those saved are saved; but you do not know who will be saved and who will be lost!.
Rita certainly doesn’t know.
For now, your acknowledgement of one of the twelve being lost proves your false theory can now be discarded.
But thanks for your reply
F2F
@mailmandan @Ritajanice
Just looking for a simple answer,
Say you have a person who has been a christian for a long time, and they had a change of life and everything else, and then something terrible happens such a brother dying from cancer, or a mother being murdered but some stranger or something for example.
They start to begin to doubt, because 'how could a Good God allow something like this to happen', and they start contemplating 'maybe God is not real,' and what is happening?
Hebrews 3
15 As has just been said:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion.”[c]
16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
However, if you suggest that they were not saved anyway, HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT FOR A FACT? They may have decided to go against the grain of everything previously known, saying "F IT".
...
You also have the issue of people being hurt by the Church... being lied too and what not, and that can cause a person to start to doubt.
You can't read or know someones heart... you can see fruits, but that is it.
Love to you,
Matthew
Just looking for a simple answer,
Say you have a person who has been a christian for a long time, and they had a change of life and everything else, and then something terrible happens such a brother dying from cancer, or a mother being murdered but some stranger or something for example.
They start to begin to doubt, because 'how could a Good God allow something like this to happen', and they start contemplating 'maybe God is not real,' and what is happening?
Hebrews 3
15 As has just been said:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion.”[c]
16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
However, if you suggest that they were not saved anyway, HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT FOR A FACT? They may have decided to go against the grain of everything previously known, saying "F IT".
...
You also have the issue of people being hurt by the Church... being lied too and what not, and that can cause a person to start to doubt.
You can't read or know someones heart... you can see fruits, but that is it.
Love to you,
Matthew
face2face
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Correct. Now speak to me about our probation.
I guess the first question is whether you can?
Let's see.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Did you misunderstand post #164? Jesus said those whom You gave Me I have kept and have lost none. Judas is lost so he was never given or kept.
John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none."
John 13:18 - I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; BUT that the scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.'
What does scripture say about Judas Iscariot?
Judas was an unbeliever and is a devil.....John 6:64-71
Judas was spiritually unclean......John 13:11
Judas is lost and is the son of perdition.........John 17:12
Judas was not kept by Jesus........John 17:12; 18:9
Judas was a traitor.....Luke 6:16
Judas was a thief and did not care for the poor........John 12:6
Judas was guilty of a greater sin.......John 19:11
Judas was influenced by Satan to betray Jesus.......John 13:2
Judas was entered by Satan.......Luke 22:3
Judas kills himself......Matthew 27:5
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Salvation is not probation.
Eternal life is not temporary life.
Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.
I dont believe everyone on the internet.
That is all I can say.
Be free to think and also talk to God, and read the scriptures, consider what man may have to say but ...
ultimately think for yourself, and seek for what is true...
That is what will lead to freedom and liberty, in Christ.
Love to you all,
Matthew
That is all I can say.
Be free to think and also talk to God, and read the scriptures, consider what man may have to say but ...
ultimately think for yourself, and seek for what is true...
That is what will lead to freedom and liberty, in Christ.
Love to you all,
Matthew
face2face
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@mailmandan
Can you see a probation in this verse.
Zephaniah 3:19
“At that time I (God) will deal with all who oppressed you. I will rescue the lame; I will gather the exiles. I will give them praise and honor in every land where they have suffered shame. . ”
Will all wait upon the Lord to do this?
What of those who give up?
Will "all" be rescued?
The answer you know is no! Those who trusted in Him and who had their faith tried and tested by fire will find redemption but those who leave Him will not.
F2F
Can you see a probation in this verse.
Zephaniah 3:19
“At that time I (God) will deal with all who oppressed you. I will rescue the lame; I will gather the exiles. I will give them praise and honor in every land where they have suffered shame. . ”
Will all wait upon the Lord to do this?
What of those who give up?
Will "all" be rescued?
The answer you know is no! Those who trusted in Him and who had their faith tried and tested by fire will find redemption but those who leave Him will not.
F2F
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
In Hebrews 3:19, take special note of we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief. Hebrews 3:8-10 says, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.
*Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
Just like in Hebrews 4:1-2, For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which they heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. *Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. *Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.
face2face
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Its Acts 14:22 isn't?
strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.
You both are robbers and theives trying to enter another way.
Btw can you see the probation in that verse?
Your mind is so corrupted you cant even converse on this subject - its rather confronting to be honest - the ignorance that is.
F2F
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