Luke 21:36 is Not a Rapture Passage

[ewq1938]

The Greek word in Luke 21:36 is: ekphygein.
Strongs does translate it as - escape or flee, however this doesn't necessarily mean a physical removal, especially not to heaven.
We can know it means protection from, or shelter so that whatever is happening won't affect us, from the many other Prophesies which describe this. Psalms 23 is a prime example. Just as God did for the three men in the furnace.

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to BEAR it.


One can escape something by being able to bear it. It is not a physical escape but a mental and spiritual escape.

 

[marks]

Matthew 25 does not include the gathering of chapter 24 because it is a NON-ISSUE

Matthew chapter 23 is where JESUS stops speaking to the Jewish nation.

Matthew chapter 24 JESUS is speaking to His Bride, including ALL who would believe on Him.

Matthew chapters 25, 26, 27, 28 JESUS is speaking to His Bride = to us who are Saved and have His Spirit within us.

See, this is what I'm saying. You don't respond to my content.

Don't worry about it. I'm not expecting that you will.

Much love!

 

[ewq1938]

See, this is what I'm saying. You don't respond to my content.

Don't worry about it. I'm not expecting that you will.

Much love!

Give one of this content and I will address it. After that is finished, another can be addressed.

 

[marks]

Give one of this content and I will address it. After that is finished, another can be addressed.

Just to clarify, do you believe the post trib rapture view?

Do you accept this passage:

Matthew 25:31-33 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

in the same way that you do:

Matthew 24:29-31 KJV
29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

. . . ?

I myself do. I think that both are prophetic narrative, foretelling events in the simple manner in which they will occur. Jesus will be seen coming in the darkened sky, His angels will gather His chosen. And Jesus will sit on a throne after He comes, the nations gathered to be separated.

Are we on the same page on this?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Give one of this content and I will address it. After that is finished, another can be addressed.

This thread . . . "escape", or, "be found worthy", these are active voice, and therefore not the same as "we who are alive and remain will be caught up with them", caught up being passive voice. In the one case, the people are doing the action. In the other case, they are being acted upon.

Agree?

Much love!

 

[ewq1938]

Just to clarify, do you believe the post trib rapture view?

Do you accept this passage:

Matthew 25:31-33 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

in the same way that you do:

Matthew 24:29-31 KJV
29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

. . . ?

I myself do. I think that both are prophetic narrative, foretelling events in the simple manner in which they will occur. Jesus will be seen coming in the darkened sky, His angels will gather His chosen. And Jesus will sit on a throne after He comes, the nations gathered to be separated.

Are we on the same page on this?

Much love!

No.

I am post-trib but the two passages are two dif time frames. Matthew 25 is not the second coming, and not a gathering of only His chosen while Matthew 24 is.

Matthew 24:29-31, then the thousand years of Rev 20, then Matthew 25:31-33. The coming in 25 is coming not to Earth per the second coming but coming to the place of judgment, which is not on the Earth which is why he and the angels must come/arrive there after having come/arrived to Earth at the second coming. Ppl always confuse a "coming" as having to be the second coming because they do not realize the GWTJ happens away from the Earth and Christ must go there (come there) to attend it.

 

[marks]

No.

I am post-trib but the two passages are two dif time frames. Matthew 25 is not the second coming, and not a gathering of only His chosen while Matthew 24 is.

Matthew 24:29-31, then the thousand years of Rev 20, then Matthew 25:31-33. The coming in 25 is coming not to Earth per the second coming but coming to the place of judgment, which is not on the Earth which is why he and the angels must come/arrive there after having come/arrived to Earth at the second coming. Ppl always confuse a "coming" as having to be the second coming because they do not realize the GWTJ happens away from the Earth and Christ must go there (come there) to attend it.

OK, so you equate the sheep/goats to the great white throne judgment, correct?

What to you indicates 1000 years between these passages?

Matthew 24:29-31 KJV
29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31-33 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

To me, saying that Jesus will come in power and glory, and, When he comes in his glory, these show them to be connected in time. The one happens, and when it happens the other happens. That seems to me to be the plain reading of the passage, with no reason to see it differently, just accept what it says.

How do you understand Jesus' use of the terms, "the chosen" and "the nations" in these passages? What did those refer to at that time?

Much love!

 

[ewq1938]

This thread . . . "escape", or, "be found worthy", these are active voice, and therefore not the same as "we who are alive and remain will be caught up with them", caught up being passive voice. In the one case, the people are doing the action. In the other case, they are being acted upon.

Agree?

Much love!

Yes.

 

[ewq1938]

OK, so you equate the sheep/goats to the great white throne judgment, correct?

Yes

What to you indicates 1000 years between these passages?

It would be better phrased as, "What to you indicates these two passages do not occur at the same timeframe?"


I answered that when I said the locations are different. The second coming is to the Earth while the Matthew 25 coming is to a non-Earthly location. That is known from this verse:

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


The GWTJ location is not in heaven or Earth which means anyone that is there must be brought or arrive there, which proves a coming of Christ and angels not related to the second coming.

 

[marks]

I answered that when I said the locations are different. The second coming is to the Earth while the Matthew 25 coming is to a non-Earthly location. That is known from this verse:

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

OK, I understand.

Basically you are saying that though Matthew 25 may seem to take place on earth because of how it's worded, it actually doesn't, because it's actually the same as the GWTJ, which is not earth. Is that fair to say?

Have you considered whether these are parallel passages?

Matthew 25:31-33 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Joel 3:1-3 KJV
1) For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
3) And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.

Much love!

 

[ewq1938]

OK, I understand.

Basically you are saying that though Matthew 25 may seem to take place on earth because of how it's worded, it actually doesn't, because it's actually the same as the GWTJ, which is not earth. Is that fair to say?

Yes.

Have you considered whether these are parallel passages?

They are clearly not parallel for the same exact reason we just discussed not to mention Joel speaks of a new captivity of Judah and Jerusalem happening in his passage which is not what is happening in Matthew 25.

Matthew 25:31-33 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Joel 3:1-3 KJV
1) For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
3) And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Joel 3:1-3 KJV
1) For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
3) And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.

"Plead" here is in the sense of a judge giving his judgment, or sentence.

Matthew 25:40 KJV
40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

The nations are judged concerning how they treated Isreal, Jesus' brothers (chosen/nations)

Joel 3:1 KJV
For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

Matthew 24:31 KJV
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

When Israel is regathered.

Joel 3:2A KJV
I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there . . .

Matthew 25:32 KJV
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

The nations are also gathered.

Parallel?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes.

Why wouldn't you rather go with the way Matthew 25 is worded? I realize it may mean coming to different conclusions, but isn't that a better foundation?

Much love!

 

[marks]

They are clearly not parallel for the same exact reason we just discussed not to mention Joel speaks of a new captivity of Judah and Jerusalem happening in his passage which is not what is happening in Matthew 25.

Are you familiar with the Hebrew idiom "bring again your captivity" or "return your captivity"? This doesn't mean going into captivity, it means coming out of it, back to their homeland.

You can see this here:

Jeremiah 33:7-8 KJV
7) And I will cause the captivity of Judah and the captivity of Israel to return, and will build them, as at the first.
8) And I will cleanse them from all their iniquity, whereby they have sinned against me; and I will pardon all their iniquities, whereby they have sinned, and whereby they have transgressed against me.

And there are many places that speak this way, you can do a simple word search to see that.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I'd like to keep in view the historical usage by the Jews in Jesus' day the terminology "The Chosen" and "The Nations", what they meant when they said that.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

See, this is what I'm saying. You don't respond to my content.

Don't worry about it. I'm not expecting that you will.

Much love!

Your content was specifically addressed.

In Matt ch24 the Bride asks the Groom when are you returning, and JESUS/Groom tells the Bride what must first take place which culminates with JESUS pointing to the Prophecy in Daniel = AOD/Antichrist.

There is NO REASON for the LORD to repeat ch24 = it is a NON-ISSUE to the LORD since HE gave explicit detail in ch24.

In chapter 25 the LORD gives HIS WARNINGS, not to the earthbound nation of Israel but to those who are seeking His Second Coming.

Matthew ch25 also includes INSTRUCTIONS for those who belong to HIM as we wait for HIS Return.

"These are the words that are written, that when Jesus comes in glory, He's going to sit on His throne of glory, and gather all the nations to be judged," - @marks added these words upon Scripture: "excepting of course "the chosen", who were previously gathered by the angels, at the time of Jesus' return." = this is man-made error


BELIEVERS are NOT excluded in Matt 25:31-36 they are INCLUDED = "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"

There is no Salvation by works stated in Matt ch25 but there is stated the "works of Faith" in those who belong to Christ.

Once AGAIN @marks, all pre-tribbers ADD to God's words what HE did not say. They do this to establish their doctrine.

 

[ewq1938]

Why wouldn't you rather go with the way Matthew 25 is worded?

I do. It describes a coming to a place where the wicked will be cast into fire. That's a coming to a non-Earthly place so the second coming cannot apply.

 

[ewq1938]

Are you familiar with the Hebrew idiom "bring again your captivity" or "return your captivity"? This doesn't mean going into captivity, it means coming out of it, back to their homeland.

Bringing captivity means captivity begins not ends. Here's one scholar who explains from Joel:

GILL

when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem: not from the Edomites, Tyrians, and Philistines, that had carried them captive in the times of Ahaz; nor from Babylon, where they had been carried captive by Nebuchadnezzar; for nothing of what is after foretold followed upon the return of these captivities: but this designs the present captivity of the Jews, and the restoration of them to their own land; of which see Isa_52:8.

The language in Joel does not match the second coming timeframe.

Joe 3:8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the LORD hath spoken it.

 

[PinSeeker]

It's not about this or that verse, rather, how we approach the Scriptures.

This seems to at least somewhat contradict what you said just a couple of posts ago, marks, that you "think everything written matters." It is what it is, regardless of our "approach."

We come with a different mindset, or so it seems to me. And how we come to the Scriptures, the mindset we bring, will have a notable effect on how we go about to interpret and internalize His Word.

Ah yes, a key dispensational talking point... :) When all else fails, then accuse the other party of preconceived notions... :) The problem with applying that to me, marks, is that I was once where you are now. I once swam in the same streams of thought as you apparently do.

Some don't see what is there, and some see what is not there, and either way, it's a problem!

Sure. And some do both... :) And this...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[marks]

Bringing captivity means captivity begins not ends. Here's one scholar who explains from Joel:

GILL

when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem: not from the Edomites, Tyrians, and Philistines, that had carried them captive in the times of Ahaz; nor from Babylon, where they had been carried captive by Nebuchadnezzar; for nothing of what is after foretold followed upon the return of these captivities: but this designs the present captivity of the Jews, and the restoration of them to their own land; of which see Isa_52:8.

The language in Joel does not match the second coming timeframe.

Joe 3:8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the LORD hath spoken it.

Check the word study. Don't just read commentators. Check the word study, if you don't see it the same as me after that, OK, so be it. But don't just read a commentary.

Much love!