Luke 21:36 is Not a Rapture Passage
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Do you disagree with the statement I just made?
We come with a different mindset, or so it seems to me. And how we come to the Scriptures, the mindset we bring, will have a notable effect on how we go about to interpret and internalize His Word.
Do you think that's not true?
Is this all just talking points to you?
And obviously you did not share my thought processes. That is abundantly clear to me. We do in fact read the Bible differently.
Much love!
Right, well, that's good, but one can't be bound by that, because then he/she falls into the error that the Jews of that day did, only seeing an immediate context and therefore missing their Messiah. We must also see it in the context that Paul did in Romans 2, Romans 9-11, and Ephesians 2, and Peter did in 1 Peter 2 ~ that Gentiles are now included in the commonwealth of Israel, God's true Israel, which includes those God calls, many from every tongue, tribe, and nation. Dispensationalists haven't missed their Messiah, of course, but they inadvertently understate to a great degree the true nature of God's Israel and therefore miss the full scope of what the Messiah came to do.
Grace and peace to you.
I just said I agree; need I do it again?
Again, no, I do not think it's untrue. But you're avoiding my point in saying what I said, which is... understandable. :)
I once did; I used to. Which is what I said. Why do you keep changing what I said? Putting words in my mouth? I seem to remember you saying recently that words were important to you. "Everything written matters," as I recall... :)
Well, no, but we have different understandings of certain things, for sure, and there are reasons for that. But like I said, I once was exactly where you are now. I know how that may sound, but it is certainly not meant as any kind of insult to your intelligence.
Grace and peace to you.
For those who like commentaries,
JFB
bring again the captivity — that is, reverse it. The Jews restrict this to the return from Babylon. Christians refer it to the coming of Christ. But the prophet comprises the whole redemption, beginning from the return out of Babylon, then continued from the first advent of Christ down to the last day (His second advent), when God will restore His Church to perfect felicity [Calvin].
K&D
The notice as to the time points back to the “afterward” in Joe_2:28 : “in those days,” viz., the days of the outpouring of the Spirit of God. This time is still further described by the apposition, “at that time, when I shall turn the captivity of Judah,” as the time of the redemption of the people of God out of their prostrate condition, and out of every kind of distress. שׁוּב אֶת שְׁבוּת is not used here in the sense of “to bring back the prisoners,” but, as in Hos_6:11, in the more comprehensive sense of restitutio in integrum, which does indeed include the gathering together of those who were dispersed, and the return of the captives, as one element, though it is not exhausted by this one element, but also embraces their elevation into a new and higher state of glory, transcending their earlier state of grace.
Clark
I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem - This may refer to the return from the Babylonish captivity; extending also to the restoration of Israel, or the ten tribes.
Gill
Joel 3:1
For, behold, in those days, and at that time,.... Which Kimchi refers to the times of the Messiah; and is true of the latter times of the Messiah, of his spiritual reign yet to come:
when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem: not from the Edomites, Tyrians, and Philistines, that had carried them captive in the times of Ahaz; nor from Babylon, where they had been carried captive by Nebuchadnezzar; for nothing of what is after foretold followed upon the return of these captivities: but this designs the present captivity of the Jews, and the restoration of them to their own land; of which see Isa_52:8.
It seems Gill actually is treating this idiom correctly.
Isaiah 52:8 KJV
Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion.
I don't think you understood Gill. Gill wrote that this passage,
Joel 3:1 KJV
For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
parallels this one,
Isaiah 52:8 KJV
Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion.
Gill's thought is that this return of their captivity is not referencing their captivities that they experienced during the time of the kings. Nor was it a return from Babylon, rather, Gill interprets Joel 3:1 to be referencing the present captivity of the Jews, scattered throughout the world, and and the restoration of them to their own land, a futurist view, paralleled in Isaiah 52:8, "When the Lord shall bring them to Zion."
It looks like Gill and I are in agreement. Interesting!
Context . . .
Joel 3:1-8 KJV
1) For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
3) And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.
4) Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head;
5) Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things:
6) The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border.
7) Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head:
8) And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the LORD hath spoken it.
It's not Israel being sold to slavery.
Much love!
I have a younger sister, her middle name is Gay. She was born in 1966.
Can you answer me . . . why in the world would my mother name my sister as a homosexual??? Can you expain that to me?
Much love!
<Sigh> Your question here, marks, underscores tenfold the point I am making to you. Some just refuse to see and/or accept the greater alongside the lesser with regard to Scripture. Such a tragedy; it's such a great theme running throughout God's inerrant, infallible Word. But, some come to be like the two men Jesus conversed with on the road to Emmaus shortly after His resurrection, when, "beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself." (Luke 24:27)
Grace and peace to you.
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Did you? I didn't notice.
Avoiding? Don't flatter yourself. I haven't gotten there yet. I'm actually now diverting attention from those who were here before, to you, try to be patient.
OK.
Saying that people read the Bible differently is not the same thing as impugning the way you read it, your protestations aside.
OK . . . Sorry if I somehow ruined your statement. I'll say it this way. I sincerely do not believe you've swum in the same streams of thought as I. As I read your posts, no, I doubt that very strongly.
No, I don't think so.
Much love!
Do you understand what I'm expressing? That words mean what they mean as we use them. Not as other people use them in different contexts in different times in different places.
Gay is one of those words. And if you try to understand the sayings of 50 years ago according to the way the word is used now you will be flat out wrong. And that's the issue with "Gather the elect" and "Gather the nations". Just like "gay", there was a particular meaning. Yes, the meaning changed, just like "gay".
Much love!
Some refuse to see or accept many things, and I find examples of that frequently.
I always liked what Walter Martin used to say . . . "Words have meanings." I fully agree!
Agreed!! Many wonderful truths are lost by some people's insistence to hold onto their doctrines even though they have to change the sayings of the Scriptures! But I trust God to teach His children.
Much love!
I did.
Of course not; you probably ignored it. :)
It seems so, yes.
It's not about me.
Well, you don't mean it in this way, but there's a much greater context to that, and that's... kinda what I'm saying. Hopefully you will at some point, but if not, so be it.
LOL! Sure.
Well, yes it is, really; you're saying I don't see it the way you do, that my understanding is inferior to yours. And that's okay; I'm saying the same to you, I guess. Like I said, I don't mean to insult your intelligence in any way, and I think that's probably true of you toward me, too.
Ah, so you think I'm lying. Well, okay, I'm not, but so be it. I am quite strongly, obviously, opposed to how I used to understand various parts of Scripture. Thus, my opposition to your understandings of the same.
Yes.
Sure. But in saying what you said about your mother, you're (inadvertently, I suppose) applying her thoughts and ways (and ours as human beings) to God. Isaiah tells us that His thoughts and ways are far above ours. That's not to say we cannot understand what He has said to us, of course... With regard to what we're discussing here, we must, as I've said, see the greater as well as the lesser.
Right, I understood you before, and now, too. But... see above.
Grace and peace to you.
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No, I think you are mistaken. But spin it however you will. That seems to be the way this convo is going. Or more like, not going.
Much love!
LOL! You're saying that the opposite of what I'm saying of my own experience is true, that what I thought is not really what I thought. To brand that as mistakenness... that's just not possible, marks, The only possibility is that you're saying either that I'm lying to you or lying to myself... or both. Who's spinning what, here, marks? LOL!
Agreed.
Grace and peace to you.
This is still about the "swimming in the same thought stream", right? As if you know what's inside my head? Right? I'm not accusing you of anything, only, you don't know me like you apparently think you do, me and my "thought stream" or whatever.
Much love!
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I don't know all about you, for sure, marks, but that was never in view. It's been about the stream of eschatological thought you are in, and I do know it, both because of what you've said and, as I said, because I was once in at least pretty much that same stream. Goodness gracious.
Grace and peace to you.
Continuing on . . .
Matthew 25:31-46 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36) Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37) Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38) When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39) Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Revelation 20:7-15 KJV
7) And when the thousand years are expired,
(. . .)
11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Matthew, When Jesus comes in power and glory, see 24:31
Revelation, When the 1000 years are expired.
Matthew/Joel, on earth, when Jesus comes to the earth, in the Valley of Decision, AKA The Valley of Jehoshaphat.
Revelation, after the earth has fled away, to not be found.
Matthew, the nations.
Revelation, the dead.
Matthew, judged according to how they treated Jesus' brothers.
Revelation, judged according to their works, no other information.
Matthew, declared wicked or righteous, invited into the kingdom, or sent to everlasting punishment.
Revelation, those not found in the Book of Life are cast into the Lake of Fire.
In the plain readings of these passages, they are at different times, in different places, involving different sets of people. There is a similar yet not identical judgment, with a similar yet not identical outcome, in part.
This, in part, there is no hint of better outcomes in the Great White Throne Judgment. None are named righteous. None are welcomed into God's kingdom. It's not excluded, yet it's not named. And why would it be? This is a judgment of “the dead”.
At this time in history, there will be two groups of humans, the living, and the dead. The living will have been resurrected by Christ. The dead are those not resurrected to share in Jesus Christ's life, they remain dead. They are raised up, even still being dead, to stand before God to be judged.
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God;
This is not the judgment of the “living”, that is, those who ARE written in the Book of Life. Being “the dead”, the simple conclusion is that these are not written in the Book of Life.
The Sheep/Goats judgment, that is, the judgment of the nations, happening on the earth, is a purging of the wicked from the survivors of the end of the age. Satan, the beast, and the false prophet have been dealt with. The armies of the earth that came against Israel have been dealt with. And now all those who oppose God, as shown by their failing to take care of God's chosen nation, are being dealt with.
This is a separation on the earth, and not final judgment, which will happen at the Great White Throne.
Much love!
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
You responded with a 'sad face' to Scripture = how so???
FACT - the GOSPEL says that the Disciples of Christ are His Bride = John 3:25-35
Then there arose a dispute between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purification. 26And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified—behold, He is baptizing, and all are coming to Him!”
27John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven. 28You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’
29He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled. 30He must increase, but I must decrease. 31He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony. 33He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true. 34For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.
35The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. (Genesis)
36He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
Because you were still not responding to my posts. You were replying, but not to my content. I've posted many passages of Scripture to you over the course of a few threads, that all make some fairly plain, straightforward sayings, which you seem to not accept, but instead of telling me what you think those passages actually mean, examining the text with me, you repost your list of things that more or less announce your view and disagreement with those who don't share it, but don't address the Scriptures I'm sharing.
So I'm saddened that we cannot have a discussion on these passages.
Nowhere in this passage does it name "the disciples" such that you could include future gentile believers. And in point of fact the disciples are not named. John speaks with some of the Jews, about Jesus, and how Jesus is the Groom, he is but the friend of the Groom. He Whom God has sent.
To whom was Jesus sent? To the lost sheep of Israel. To whom did Jesus go? To the children, not to the dogs. To whom did God promise to wed? To Israel.
How is the church identified? With Christ. His body, His bones. We are likened to a bride in several places, similies, however, we are identified as His body, concretely, in several places.
Much love!
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