The Gospel of Grace:

[Strat]

The gospel of grace does not exclude the law of sowing and reaping and consequences for choices made...God is not mocked,any "gospel" that suggest otherwise is false.

 

[whitestone]

The gospel of grace does not exclude the law of sowing and reaping and consequences for choices made...God is not mocked,any "gospel" that suggest otherwise is false.

The Gospel (of Grace) is receiving the Holy Spirit of the Risen Lord.

In THIS Gospel, we are made righteous and sinless by Christ dwelling in us. This is the Gospel prophecied by the prophets. The Kingdom of God. There is "no condemnation" in this Gospel.
The ONLY "consequences reaped" in this Gospel is Eternal Life.

But you are welcome to explain your Gospel Strat. This should be interesting...

 

[dragonfly]

I have been looking for these words online for a long, long time. Sorry there is no music, but, the poetry has a strong message.



O Lamb of God! Thou wonderful sin-bearer,
Hard after Thee my soul doth follow on;
As pants the hart for streams in desert dreary,
So pants my soul for Thee, O Thou life-giving One.

At Thy feet I fall, yield Thee up my all,
To suffer, live, or die for my Lord crucified.

I mourn, I mourn the sin that drove Thee from me,
And blackest darkness brought into my soul;
Now I renounce the accursed thing that hindered,
And come once more to Thee, to be made fully whole.

At Thy feet I fall, yield Thee up my all, ...

Descend the heavens, Thou whom my soul adoreth!
Exchange Thy throne for my poor longing heart;
For Thee, for Thee I watch as for the morning;
No rest or peace is mine from my Saviour apart.

At Thy feet I fall, yield Thee up my all, ...

Come, Holy Ghost, Thy mighty aid bestowing,
Destroy the works of sin, the self, the pride;
Burn, burn in me, my idols overthrowing,
Prepare my heart for Him, for my Lord crucified!

At Thy feet I fall, yield Thee up my all, ...


~ C Booth Clibborn/Wesley Evans ~


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Hi Whitestone,

I think you might agree

'The ONLY "consequences reaped" in this Gospel is Eternal Life.'

applies to those who walk in the Spirit, not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. I think this is what's in Strat's mind.

 

[Episkopos]

Those that seek to be justified by the works of the Law (legalism) are under a curse. Galatians 3:10 --- In simple laungage, those that think their works justify them before God are under a curse
*
Galatians 2:16
16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
NKJV
*
Galatians 3:8-12
8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

The Law Brings a Curse

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."
12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."
NKJV

And still the religious believe they are good because of their works.

You are confusing people who try keeping the law in their own strength with people who have surrendered their lives to have Christ live through them.

You of course are neither of these. You prefer living in your own strength and NOT keeping the law. That is called being lawless. This has negative connotations according to the bible.

 

[brother dave]

boy you guys got your legal books out today! i dont know were to start with all you hypocrites! and i think again, like your complex doctrine you guys overload with post that are so ignorant of the gospel it leaves us who are trying to deliver you foolish lawbreakers, with no starting point! i will try again with you pit of vipers, tell us poor grace loving sinners of all your holiness? i guess if you all started a church, all of you would have to be the point of worship? i bet none of you are in the least bit holy! we have our holiness groups here, full of anger and greed and as ugly on the inside as they are on the outside! you nor they know anything of Gods love and of His mercy! you know nothing of his care for the weak! you are just like they were in His own day! outside painted white but inside full of all evil!

 

[haz]

The normal state of a disciple of Christ is to be pure....as in cleansed from ALL unrighteousness. This is not a facade of righteousness but real righteousness and TRUE holiness. Those who walk in this have a witness to thetruth. Those who read verses and amke up a salvation scheme for themselves have an opinion but not a witness.

Hi Epi,

Walking by faith is something you do not understand. Until you turn to Christ, submitting to God's righteousness, then you will continue to misunderstand scripture.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Epi,

Walking by faith is something you do not understand. Until you turn to Christ, submitting to God's righteousness, then you will continue to misunderstand scripture.

But I am submitting to Christ's righteousness. This is the power that overcomes in me. I think you mean I am not submitting to your understanding of God's righteousness which is to grab hold of a doctrine that is without any power or reality.

 

[brother dave]

Hi Epi,

Walking by faith is something you do not understand. Until you turn to Christ, submitting to God's righteousness, then you will continue to misunderstand scripture.

according to there doctrine poor old Abraham is not going to make it? all he has is faith in God? if only he had known this bunch back in the day? MAY I BE COUNTED WITH ABRAHAM WHO HAD ONLY THE WORKS OF HIS FAITH! AND DID NOT CONSIDER THE WEAKNESS OF HIS BODY BUT TRUSTED IN HIS GOD!

BY THE WAY YOU GUYS? IS ABRAHAM SAVED? HOW ABOUT RAHAB? she was harlot if you dont know and one of just 4 women mentioned in the Lords generational line? 2 were harlots, 1 an adultress, and other a moabite who according to law cannot be allowed to share in God blessing?? odd they would be honored?

 

[haz]

Hi haz,

I hope you won't mind my beginning with a personal question. You write English like a native, but you don't seem to understand the grammatical details. Is this because English is not your first language? (Please PM me if you don't want to answer in open forum.)



That is correct. You yourself have quoted 1 Tim 1:9, explaining that Christians are not lawless because they have the righteousness of Christ, and therefore, this reproof can never apply to them. However, by quoting Rom 4:15, you have shown you don't really understand the claim you're making, especially in view of Matthew 7:21. I have challenged you about Rom 4:15 at least twice, and given you hints, and you have not responded. I have also pointed out there are several laws mentioned in the NT, and you have not responded.

Now I ask again: what makes you 'know' or 'think' Episkopos was referring to the Mosaic law? - - Please reply.


Acknowledged.



haz, it really depends what you mean by 'believing on Jesus', whether you need be concerned that this refers to you. (And you don't need to be concerned if it doesn't.) And that reasonable concern you may have depends what kind of gospel was preached to you - whether it is the one in the Bible beginning with Abraham Gal 3:8 - or, it is another gospel.... 2 Cor 11:4, Gal 1:6, which is as good as 'fables'. I have used what you posted in reply to Kidron in http://www.christian...are-born-again/ in more than one post, and you have not addressed any of the loopholes in the logic you used. This gives me the impression that you have no idea of the full gospel. But if you have heard the whole truth and believed into Jesus Christ according to the gospel to Abraham, which Jesus Christ came to fulfil, then, you should have a testimony like Episkopos', and I would expect you to recognise him as a brother.

Another way to understand the full gospel is to read the Bible for yourself, until you 'get' it. Don't read thinking you know what it all means, read as if you've never read it before. Ask God to open your eyes to new truths, and to convict you of any areas of unbelief. That's what a Christian should be doing anyway, to keep growing and believing. Essential reading would be the first five books, Joshua, Psalms, and, the New Testament until Ephesians at least. Don't read a modern translation except possibly the New King James. Young's (or Green's) Literal translations which will help you see more differences in what you've been taught, and what you should have been taught. Brother, it's your soul. 'Make your calling and election sure'. 'Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling'. Any time I quote, I use the King James Version (unless otherwise stated. A link to the search engine I use is last in my CyB signature), and you can look up the context of my quotes, there. By all means ask questions and debate what you're learning until you have made sure that you understand what it means to 'lay hold on life'.



It's 'harder to attain' if no-one told you about being grafted into the death of Christ Rom 6:5 in reality. And if you think (as others seem to think) that you don't need to worry about sins any more because Christ died for them, that is only true if you're planning to acknowledge every single one of them to Him, and be washed again in His blood in reality. A better plan is, to walk in the power of the Holy Spirit, and do not fulfil the lusts of the flesh. Gal 5:16.



Is this really news to you? You've never heard of it before? (Serious questions. Please answer.)



I think that may be the construction you put upon what he said, rather than 'what he said'. You could always find and bring that conversation, including your part in it, here as a quote, as you've mentioned it often. That would help readers understand what this discussion is about. (Many thanks if you do.)



Heb 8:10, - Rom 3:27, - Rom 6:22, - Rom 8:2 - - - - Rom 8:4,

James 2:8, - John 14:15, 16, 17, 18, - John 15:12, - 1 John 5:3.


Now, two questions for you.

Does 'keeping' these 'laws', strike you as 'works'? Please answer.

Or, is 'keeping' them the natural outworking of Rom 12:1 - 3? Please answer.




The first thing to say is that Christians don't (or shouldn't) fear death itself, because it should have no power over us any more if we have been walking in the power of the Holy Spirit. Heb 2:15 Christians tend to shy away from your question, though, because who can know what has gone on between a man and God by the Spirit, in his dying moments? God knows with perfect precision what attitude a person's heart is holding, and whether there is anything He can hold against them. Not that He is trying to, but His justice is perfect too, and He has appropriate 'rewards' lined up for both good, and evil.

However, Ezekiel 18:24 comes to mind, as does the first part of Ezekiel 9, Romans 2, and Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment. While you're reading the Bible, you can gather how seriously God takes unrepented sin and, and that's why a Christian is held to a much higher standard - because spiritually he normally dwells in that other realm, with God, knowing Him, communicating by the Holy Spirit. John 17:3.

What do you think is the answer to your last question? Please answer.

Hi dragonfly,

Just a reminder that I don't have the same time for forums like you may have. Shorter posts with less question and points are appreciated.

Regarding your query on my grammatical details, I am a first generation Australian. My parents native language is not English. That no doubt plays a part in my imperfect grammatical details. Also most Australians are not involved in circumstances where grammatical correctness is required. This also plays a part in our style of communication. Speaking to a high school english teacher recently revealed that she too erred in grammatical details and had to teach herself correct grammer for her job.

However, on forums etc it's the message thats important. If anyone is misunderstood then further discussions can sort it out. Unfortunately grammatical details are not the only hinderance to understanding each other.

Regarding Rom 4:15, I have responded and said that it still applied in terms that we are not under the law.
You asked about the Mosaic law with Epi and again I refer you to Epi's (and your claim) that we are not immune to any law. Epi's claim that we should walk in perfect obedience just as Jesus did (who was under the Mosaic law) confirms this. You will have to clarify further why you fail to understand this answer that I have offered several times.

From what I can determine from your doctrine and interpretation of scripture, you lack spiritual understanding. Of course you claim the same about me. A stalmate.

Anyway, I get back later as I'm late for work again.

 

[brother dave]

YOU GUYS ARE MISSING GOD! and dont think some of you even care?

the sad thing is! i thought they was just three of four of you scripture twisters? looks like i saw a couple more today?
God must have sent me here to break up a cult before it got started? because thats what i am hearing!

i have to say, if i had not seen with my eyes ,the nonsense you guys are trying to pass off as bible doctrine? i would never have believed that people like you, are actually in the church? i am ashamed for you all, for clearly you have none!

 

[Episkopos]

according to there doctrine poor old Abraham is not going to make it? all he has is faith in God? if only he had known this bunch back in the day? MAY I BE COUNTED WITH ABRAHAM WHO HAD ONLY THE WORKS OF HIS FAITH! AND DID NOT CONSIDER THE WEAKNESS OF HIS BODY BUT TRUSTED IN HIS GOD!

BY THE WAY YOU GUYS? IS ABRAHAM SAVED? HOW ABOUT RAHAB? she was harlot if you dont know and one of just 4 women mentioned in the Lords generational line? 2 were harlots, 1 an adultress, and other a moabite who according to law cannot be allowed to share in God blessing?? odd they would be honored?

You admit that you're still stuck in your old nature like those in the OT. But we have a new covenant in Christ. So you claim the promises of the NT while still walking in your own strength...it just doesn't wash.

 

[brother dave]

You admit that you're still stuck in your old nature like those in the OT. But we have a new covenant in Christ. So you claim the promises of the NT while still walking in your own strength...it just doesn't wash.

is Abraham saved in your ignorant doctrine? how about rahab who hung a little red string? is she saved? have you ever helped a weak person in your life? have you ever known His compassion for the lost?? i tell you if you dont know that? you have never known Him!

 

[Episkopos]

is Abraham saved in your ignorant doctrine? how about rahab who hung a little red string? is she saved? have you ever helped a weak person in your life? have you ever known His compassion for the lost?? i tell you if you dont know that? you have never known Him!

Are you from the peace corps? Humans can justify their actions through charity...but this is not the same as being in Christ. LOving God remains the first commandment.

 

[brother dave]

Are you from the peace corps? Humans can justify their actions through charity...but this is not the same as being in Christ. LOving God remains the first commandment.

so Abraham was before the commandment? is he saved in your twisting doctrine? or is Abraham lost also? who else will you condemn? Issac and Jacob? dont forget Joseph ! who did not keep that commandment? do you ever answer a question or just insult those wiser than you?

your friends are leaving you because of your weakness. i can see you! what part of the world are you from? it looks a little dark.

 

[Strat]

The Gospel (of Grace) is receiving the Holy Spirit of the Risen Lord.

In THIS Gospel, we are made righteous and sinless by Christ dwelling in us. This is the Gospel prophecied by the prophets. The Kingdom of God. There is "no condemnation" in this Gospel.
The ONLY "consequences reaped" in this Gospel is Eternal Life.

But you are welcome to explain your Gospel Strat. This should be interesting...

The gospel of grace/sin with impunity..once you say the magic words its party time...sure i understand.

 

[mark s]

Who is the person here who wants a license to sin?

What is the sin you want to be free to commit?

This too is a fallacy.

 

[Episkopos]

The gospel of grace/sin with impunity..once you say the magic words its party time...sure i understand.

Actually you misunderstand...read carefully what Whitestone is saying. He is talking about a new life in the Spirit according to the power of God. Not a human scheme for covering up sins

 

[brother dave]

I WILL ASK BOTH OF YOU? IS ABRAHAM SAVED ACCORDING TO YOUR NONSENSE OF A DOCTRINE? AND FOR YOU epi WHO IS THE BOY OR GIRL IN YOUR SINS?

i know what you are! and sodom was a bad place to be!

 

[Episkopos]

I WILL ASK BOTH OF YOU? IS ABRAHAM SAVED ACCORDING TO YOUR NONSENSE OF A DOCTRINE? AND FOR YOU epi WHO IS THE BOY OR GIRL IN YOUR SINS?

You want an opinion? I have no opinion...I have never met Abraham...have you? We have the bible record that GOD (the Creator)...justified him. No man did this.... Can you see that?

Can you find me a place where anybody then justifies himself based on what another has done????

Your system is based on SELF-JUSTIFICATION by reading a bible.

Here is what you are actually doing...with many others here

"And he read a bible and he counted it for himself as righteousness"

But you can't see this....

 

[brother dave]

that is a simple question! you mean one of you bible teachers cant answer that?
what kind of answer is that? i thought you was some great teacher? is abraham saved? justified?