The Gospel of Grace:

[dragonfly]

Hi williemac,

Paul also said that the flesh lusts against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh so that you do not do the things you wish. He also acknowledged that although in his mind he served and agreed with the law, there was/is an opposing force within him, in his body, that prevented him from living the kind of life he wished he could. This is the mindset that he called "walking according to the Spirit", of which therefore, there is no condemnation for those.

I think you know this is not what Paul said with regard to 'no condemnation'?

Nor did he call 'an opposing force within him, in his body, that prevented him from living the kind of life he wished he could', "walking according to the Spirit". You have to leap over quite a few words to conjure that connection.

How can you possibly think that's what he meant?

Victory over sin is not a form of mind games.

'Victory over sin' is victory over sin through the power of the Holy Spirit, which we receive...... only as we identify with Christ's death and are raised up in Him - to walk in newness of life - by the operation of the faith of God. Gal 2:20

By this means we are delivered from the 'body of this death' and the power of sin - only if we want to be. No-one who would rather retain control of their own life submits to God to the extent of receiving His death as their own.


Hence their continuing struggle, often thinking 'better the devil you know', than no devil at all. The flesh is indeed strong.

 

[Axehead]

Hi Axehead

Is there the necessity of a `second blessing` generally?

Hi Hepzipbah,

Reading over this thread I realized I missed this short post of yours. I believe that the baptism in the Holy Spirit is just as needed today (and commanded) as it was when Jesus commanded His disciples to wait for the promise of the Father.

Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Blessings to you,
Axehead

Hi williemac,

I think you know this is not what Paul said with regard to 'no condemnation'?

Nor did he call 'an opposing force within him, in his body, that prevented him from living the kind of life he wished he could', "walking according to the Spirit". You have to leap over quite a few words to conjure that connection.

How can you possibly think that's what he meant?

Victory over sin is not a form of mind games.

'Victory over sin' is victory over sin through the power of the Holy Spirit, which we receive...... only as we identify with Christ's death and are raised up in Him - to walk in newness of life - by the operation of the faith of God. Gal 2:20

By this means we are delivered from the 'body of this death' and the power of sin - only if we want to be. No-one who would rather retain control of their own life submits to God to the extent of receiving His death as their own.

Hence their continuing struggle, often thinking 'better the devil you know', than no devil at all. The flesh is indeed strong.

Indeed dragonfly, I have never heard of such a ridiculous thing as "walking in the Spirit" being an "opposing force" in us that prevents us from "living the kind of life we should".

If "walking in the Spirit" prevents us from living the kind of life we should, then what does "walking in the flesh" do to us?

Axehead

Hi Axehead,

You said: 'I don't claim perfect lifestyle.'
I realise only whitestone has claimed perfect lifestyle/behavior/obedience (what he calls sinlessness). I know you and your friends have not claimed this.

But, Epi and some others have claimed that perfect lifestyle/behavior/obedience is required as evidence of abiding in Christ. If this is not acheived eventually and consistently, then that soul will die. Epi even claimed others here were in fantasy when believing on Jesus without such perfect lifestyle/behavior/obedience.
Do you differ from such doctrine?

You said 'It is impossible to become a truly born-again Christian and have no testimony of deliverance from the powers of darkness'.

The thief on the cross had the testimony of turning to Jesus as Lord, believing on Him (John 3:18). He understood what the will of God is.
1Thess 4:3
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication.

Others however reject sanctification through Christ's one offering (Heb 10:10).
Instead they turn to (spiritual) fornication.
Examples:
Esau sold his birthright for a morsel of food. He was a fornicator, Heb 12:16

Israel turned away from the Lord and walked after vanity (Jer 2:5) committing 2 evils (Jer 2:13). They committed adultery with stones and with stocks (Jer 3:9).

Through Christ's one offering we have been sanctified (Heb 10:10). This happens immediately when someone turns to Jesus (thief on the cross).
But it seems that you might be agreeing with the likes of Epi who denies this. Instead he claims that sanctification, holiness, righteousness is not acheived until a process is completed which is evidenced by perfect behavior/lifestyle/obedience. This is unbelief, seeking to be perfected by the flesh. It's fornication, which we should abstain from.

Haz,

Two questions for you:

Does Jesus Christ call us to a life of faithfulness?

Does justification by faith "alone" mean that we are justified by simply believing in a creed alone?

If we have faith whereby we can even move mountains but have not love (Love for God and Neighbor) I am nothing.

And a third question: How do you keep yourself in the love of God?

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Axehead

 

[haz]

Hi Axehead,

Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

And how do we show our faith by our works?

We believe on God's promise, obeying His will.

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

John 6:40
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

1Thess 4:3
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication

BUT, to resort to perfection by the flesh is unbelief and disobedience. By these works Christ is being denied.

How do we keep ourselves in the love of God?
We endure to the end, believing on Jesus. Encouraging each other in the faith, building up ourselves in our most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost.

 

[Axehead]

Hi Axehead,

Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

And how do we show our faith by our works?

We believe on God's promise, obeying His will.

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

John 6:40
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

1Thess 4:3
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication

BUT, to resort to perfection by the flesh is unbelief and disobedience. By these works Christ is being denied.

How do we keep ourselves in the love of God?
We endure to the end, believing on Jesus. Encouraging each other in the faith, building up ourselves in our most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost.

Ok, Haz thanks at least for answering 1 of my 3 questions.

Axehead

 

[haz]

Hi Axehead,

I considered that your 3 questions were answered. Perhaps you had some other point in mind that makes you feel my answers were inadequate.

Justified by faith alone?
Yes, of course.

Rom 5:1
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rom 3:8
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Gal 2:16
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Gal 3:11
But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”

You speak of this as 'simply believing in a creed alone'.
I offer 2Cor 11:3 for your consideration regarding your view about believing on Jesus alone.

But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Are we called to a life of faithfullness?
Perhaps you can explain what YOU understand this is since you find my answers inadequate.

 

[Axehead]

Hi Axehead,

I considered that your 3 questions were answered. Perhaps you had some other point in mind that makes you feel my answers were inadequate.

Justified by faith alone?
Yes, of course.

Rom 5:1
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rom 3:8
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Gal 2:16
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Gal 3:11
But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”

You speak of this as 'simply believing in a creed alone'.
I offer 2Cor 11:3 for your consideration regarding your view about believing on Jesus alone.

But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Are we called to a life of faithfullness?
Perhaps you can explain what YOU understand this is since you find my answers inadequate.

No other point in mind, just my 3 questions.

 

[wesOK]

We have to be compassionate, kind, and forgiving. It is these characteristics that will give us happy and successful lives. We have to have compassion for ourselves and those we come across in everyday life. We must be examples of this Christlike behavior to our children and youth so they can carry the message even further than we do and we need the churches help to do it. We support our churches through tithing but sometimes that is not enough. Through fundraisers and programs like Cell Phones 4 Churches we can pick up the slack so our churches can afford the resources that are needed to better educate our children. Love everyone and treat others the way you want to be treated.

 

[Barrd]

It's amazing, the lengths to which people will go to avoid obedience to the Lord's commandments....

 

[Jun2u]

It's amazing, the lengths to which people will go to avoid obedience to the Lord's commandments....

In your OP under the topic “What is the defining mark of a Disciple of Christ?”, I've stated that the hallmark of a true believer is to “accept and “obey” the Bible, but you had different ideas.

Now you are remonstrating with those who go to any lengths to avoid "obedience" to the commandments of God. Go figure!

To God Be The Glory

 

[Barrd]

It seemed so simple to me.

Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Obviously, this is a commandment, and Christians will, of course, obey His commands. Did He not say:

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Men will know His disciples by the love that they have for others.
How is this so?
Because His disciples will obey His command that we love one another as He loves us.
That kind of love is hard to ignore...

Bottom line...those who "accept and obey", as Jun says, will have that special love for others, because Jesus says that they will.
And the world...the carnally minded world, who cannot obey God...they will notice that love, because that kind of special love is hard to ignore...and because a Christian chose to show them that love, they will recognize the Lord in them.
Love is the key to unlocking the Kingdom of God...

It seemed so very simple to me...

But, as I've said so often, we Christians have spent the last 2,000+ years complicating what our Lord sacrificed Himself to make simple for us.