The 144,000 before God at the end.

[Keraz]

I assume you are a postribber.
I have yet to see any postrib rapture verses...
None of the other members have posted one.
Maybe you possibly have one?

I do not believe in any 'rapture to heaven' at all. We never leave the earth and eventually God and therefore; heaven, comes to us. Rev 21:1-7

What will happen 'post-trib', when Jesus returns, is the gathering of the righteous and faithful Christian peoples of God, to where Jesus will be; in Jerusalem. What Matthew 24:31 and 2 Thess 4:7:17 clearly say.

Jesus placed the rapture setting pretrib.

What Jesus really did say was: No one goes to heaven, except for the One who came from heaven. John 3:13
No amount of assumption, supposition, or plain guesswork, changes this clear statement. It is reinforced by scriptures such as - John 7:34, John 17:15, John 8:21-23, Proverbs 10:30

 

[ewq1938]

The second coming when all eyes will see the coming of the Lord takes place at the harvest at the 6th seal.

No, it takes place at the 7th trump, which is what the 6th seal is describing.

This coming is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. The last trumpet is the second advent when Jesus returns to set up His kingdom.

There is not two second comings. He comes once and harvests/raptures the elect and also sets up his kingdom on Earth.

The problem is that He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. The Church is already in heaven so it is the Church that is gathered from heaven and it is the seed of the woman gathered from the earth.

Anyone in heaven does not need to be gathered. It's people on the Earth who are spread all over the Earth that need to be gathered so they can be in one place.

Serioulsy?

And it got quiet about the Feast of Tabernacles being kept through the Millennium showing that the 7th trumpet blown by an angel is not the last trump.

I guess that came from the Old Testament so this truth and fact can be rejected?

It cannot be forced into NT prophecies. The trumps of prophecy are over when the 7th sounds. Think about what you are saying. Jesus comes at the last trump and the dead resurrect. How exactly does that happen within the Millennium?? The dead are resurrected BEFORE the Mill begins.

 

[ewq1938]

You said earlier that the 144 k are gathered AFTER The rapture.

Quote me saying that.

Now you place the rapture at the second coming on white horses.

No, the rapture is over by the time people from heaven on white horses happen in Rev 19.

 

[David in NJ]

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.

In perfect order of the pretrib rapture.
In perfect alignment of Noah, and Lot as pretrib gathering setting that Jesus depicts.

It says = "at His Coming"

There is no pre-trib at "His Coming" = Perfect alignment with Noah, Lot and Elijah

 

[David in NJ]

Omission.
Always omit verses from rom 11.
Why?????????

Nobody, noone, is disputing the tree is Jesus.

Are you desperate???

The post clearly states Romans ch11 = ch stands for 'chapter' = as in the WHOLE CHAPTER 11

 

[rebuilder 454]

Omission.
Always omit verses from rom 11.
Why?????????

Nobody, noone, is disputing the tree is Jesus.

David in NJ​

Are you desperate???

The post clearly states Romans ch11 = ch stands for 'chapter' = as in the WHOLE CHAPTER 11

We all know what "ch" is.
Yes, that "ch" has verses you omit.
(you know,the ones about a group cut off, and the GENTILES grafted in, and those same cut off ones grafted back in)

 

[rebuilder 454]

It says = "at His Coming"

There is no pre-trib at "His Coming" = Perfect alignment with Noah, Lot and Elijah

he is coming at the beginning of the trib and at the end as is eternally declared in mat 24/ luke 17.
Yes, I agree with that eternal declaration of God's word as Jesus vividly outlined in mat 24./ luke 17
one day you also will began to agree with God's word.
Mat 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark
Luke 17
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
THE SAME DAY...PRETRIB...LOT TAKEN...JUDGEMENT BEGINS.
Postribbers,not only thumb their noses at that fact, they seem to think that Jesus really meant that Lot was protected, NEVER GATHERED PREJUDGEMNT, because then Lot would be an "escapist wimp"
CONJECTURE AND OMISSION ,the two cornerstones of the postribbers man made ,made up doctrine.


You can not possibly stay in the "one coming" theory honestly.
It can not be done.

Postrib rapture theory hangs on the "one coming" theory.
They must do the forbidden; change Gods word.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I do not believe in any 'rapture to heaven' at all. We never leave the earth and eventually God and therefore; heaven, comes to us. Rev 21:1-7

What will happen 'post-trib', when Jesus returns, is the gathering of the righteous and faithful Christian peoples of God, to where Jesus will be; in Jerusalem. What Matthew 24:31 and 2 Thess 4:7:17 clearly say.

What Jesus really did say was: No one goes to heaven, except for the One who came from heaven. John 3:13
No amount of assumption, supposition, or plain guesswork, changes this clear statement. It is reinforced by scriptures such as - John 7:34, John 17:15, John 8:21-23, Proverbs 10:30

OK,in Gods purposes,there is a marriage in heaven with the bride,in glorified bodies.
Jesus pointed to this at the last supper. The wedding feast and the marriage It is seen in rev 19 as already happened in heaven, during the gt.
Your position is bizzare
There are several places people receive glorified bodies.
The rapture
The innumerable number
Rev 14
The gwtj
IOW, Paul is in heaven
Paul will be resurrected at the rapture.


Paul needs a glorified body.
Paul will attend the wedding supper in his glorified body (one that can drink wine)

 

[David in NJ]

he is coming at the beginning of the trib and at the end as is eternally declared in mat 24/ luke 17.
Yes, I agree with that eternal declaration of God's word as Jesus vividly outlined in mat 24./ luke 17
one day you also will began to agree with God's word.
Mat 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark
Luke 17
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
THE SAME DAY...PRETRIB...LOT TAKEN...JUDGEMENT BEGINS.
Postribbers,not only thumb their noses at that fact, they seem to think that Jesus really meant that Lot was protected, NEVER GATHERED PREJUDGEMNT, because then Lot would be an "escapist wimp"
CONJECTURE AND OMISSION ,the two cornerstones of the postribbers man made ,made up doctrine.


You can not possibly stay in the "one coming" theory honestly.
It can not be done.

Postrib rapture theory hangs on the "one coming" theory.
They must do the forbidden; change Gods word.

Wrath is not tribulation.

Today is a good day for you to hear God's words = John 16:33 and Matthew 24:9 and Revelation 7:13-14

"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

"Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake."

Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Wrath is not tribulation.

Today is a good day for you to hear God's words = John 16:33 and Matthew 24:9 and Revelation 7:13-14

"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

"Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake."

Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

There are several dynamics.
Tribulation, attacks, and natural storms of life and evil people.
[TRIBULA'TION, noun [Latin tribulo, to thrash, to beat.] Severe affliction; distresses of life; vexations.[ (websters dictionary)
Note it is not referring to a flat tire,or bad neighbor.
there is Tribulation sent by God
there is the Wrath of God. Wrath is tribulation (trouble) Tribulation CAN mean lots of things. But wrath is great tribulation.
The Jews are taken to heaven before the last part of the great trib.
7 years of great trib.
The last half more intense as it is directly wrath.
God used other nations constantly to judge his people. Wrath, or tribulation??????
Gets tedious when the great tribulation is boxed into mans one dimensional doctrine pivot.
The 4 horsemen kick off the great tribulation.
The last half is more intense.
But to miss the purpose is a tragedy, and a sad starting place.
Times of gentiles completed
Church as the bride taken by the groom
Remaining believers artyred.

Church age ends

Jacobs trouble begins, and then mid trib the Jews taken that are messianic.
No beliers around DURING the gt.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Wrath is not tribulation.

Today is a good day for you to hear God's words = John 16:33 and Matthew 24:9 and Revelation 7:13-14

"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

"Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake."

Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Interesting, because they are ALL MARTYRED during the trib...just like you posted
They are the left behinds that missed the rapture of the 5 wise virgins.
They were not protected.
Think about it. Millions or billions martyred during the trib.
Postribs say they are protected during the trib.
That is NOT SCRIPTURAL.
Only the jews and 144k are protected.
You just stumbled on yet another impossibility of any hope you will go through the gt.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I do not believe in any 'rapture to heaven' at all. We never leave the earth and eventually God and therefore; heaven, comes to us. Rev 21:1-7

What will happen 'post-trib', when Jesus returns, is the gathering of the righteous and faithful Christian peoples of God, to where Jesus will be; in Jerusalem. What Matthew 24:31 and 2 Thess 4:7:17 clearly say.

What Jesus really did say was: No one goes to heaven, except for the One who came from heaven. John 3:13
No amount of assumption, supposition, or plain guesswork, changes this clear statement. It is reinforced by scriptures such as - John 7:34, John 17:15, John 8:21-23, Proverbs 10:30

you kidding?
Elijah
Enoch
Paul
John
Those in paradise that were resurrected at the ascention..the patriarchs.
The innumerable number before the throne in rev.

... just off the top of my head.

 

[David in NJ]

There are several dynamics.
Tribulation, attacks, and natural storms of life and evil people.
[TRIBULA'TION, noun [Latin tribulo, to thrash, to beat.] Severe affliction; distresses of life; vexations.[ (websters dictionary)
Note it is not referring to a flat tire,or bad neighbor.
there is Tribulation sent by God
there is the Wrath of God. Wrath is tribulation (trouble) Tribulation CAN mean lots of things. But wrath is great tribulation.
The Jews are taken to heaven before the last part of the great trib.
7 years of great trib.
The last half more intense as it is directly wrath.
God used other nations constantly to judge his people. Wrath, or tribulation??????
Gets tedious when the great tribulation is boxed into mans one dimensional doctrine pivot.
The 4 horsemen kick off the great tribulation.
The last half is more intense.
But to miss the purpose is a tragedy, and a sad starting place.
Times of gentiles completed
Church as the bride taken by the groom
Remaining believers artyred.

Church age ends

Jacobs trouble begins, and then mid trib the Jews taken that are messianic.
No beliers around DURING the gt.

Please post the scripture(s) that CLEARLY state when the 'church-age' comes to an End.

 

[David in NJ]

Interesting, because they are ALL MARTYRED during the trib...just like you posted
They are the left behinds that missed the rapture of the 5 wise virgins.
They were not protected.
Think about it. Millions or billions martyred during the trib.
Postribs say they are protected during the trib.
That is NOT SCRIPTURAL.
Only the jews and 144k are protected.
You just stumbled on yet another impossibility of any hope you will go through the gt.

The five foolish virgins perished = lost forever.
Left-Behind saints is another lie that comes from the first lie ='pre-trib'.

Please post the scripture(s) that CLEARLY state when the 'church-age' comes to an End.

 

[No Pre-TB]

By this reasoning, Jesus cannot return to earth to restore all things until all things are restored. Do you see the conundrum here?

I'd hardly say that passage teaches rapture timing in any sense.

I don't see any conundrum. A Pre-TB rapture says he leaves heaven to meet us in the air at the resurrection. Most of them place that time before Rev 5 and some place it at the 6th seal. This issue is, things need to be removed in order for there to be a restoration to an earlier state. Acts 3:21 specifies he will not leave heaven till the time to restore all things. Since nothing has been removed on a prwe-TB timeline whether before the seals or in the seals, it is not scripturally sound with Acts 3:21 to insist Elders in heaven are the church nor is it to assume we are resurrected after the 6th seal.

If you still dont understand and find difficulty with this, I'll post what others say. maybe their words will be easier to understand.

It conveys the thought of restoration to an earlier and better state, rather than that of simple consummation or completion, which the immediate context seems, in some measure, to suggest. It finds an interesting parallel in the “new heavens and new earth”—involving, as they do, a restoration of all things to their true order—of 2Peter 3:13.

It also conveys the idea of the predicted recovery of the world from sin, and the restoration of peace and order; the con. summation of the work of the Messiah, now begun, but not yet complete; slow it may be in its advances, but triumphant and certain in its progress and its close.

Until the times of restitution of all things; or restoration of all things, when all things shall be restored to that condition from which sin put them: for the fall hath maimed and disordered the whole universe; and probably there is not that excellency in any of the creatures which there was at first, before man (for whom they were made) by his sin brought death to himself, and as it were a dead colour over all them; this makes the whole creation groan and travail in pain until now, Romans 8:22. But the end of the world will be a time of restitution of all things unto man especially, who shall be then restored unto God, and to a blessed immortality: for unless this be granted, all their preaching and prophesying was in vain, 1 Corinthians 15:14.

 

[No Pre-TB]

The Lord returns to the earth many times before the restitution of all things.

Read my reply to marks and what commentators say. He does not leave many more times. I'll be honest. You seem to post a lot of info that does not exist in the Bible. Multiple resurrections, multiple raptures, multiple advents. You realize those are called heresies right?

 

[No Pre-TB]

In the rapture Only The Dead In Christ are risen .
It is not the general Resurrection after the millennium

I'm not sure what you are referring to against what I said. But for clarification, ONLY the living are at the harpazo. The dead rise first at the resurrection. Then sometime afterwards, the living will meet them in the air at the harpazo. The resurrection happens on the last day when the kingdoms of this world become Christ. Before the door is shut, the living will be seized.

 

[The Light]

Read my reply to marks and what commentators say. He does not leave many more times

I couldn't less what commentators say. What would they know? The book has been sealed until the time of the end when many shall run to and fro and knowledge shall increase.

Additionally, there are many that could not even believe that God would restore the nation of Israel as He stated in His Word. Many of the commentators come for the root of this unbelief and blindness.

I'll be honest. You seem to post a lot of info that does not exist in the Bible. Multiple resurrections, multiple raptures, multiple advents. You realize those are called heresies right?

And yet you are still unable to address the points that I make. Let me restate a few truths that you call heresies. And this has nothing to do with the pretrib rapture.

You claim Jesus comes once, at the end of the trumpets. And yet you cast this coming of Jesus in Revelation 14 aside and pretend it not there because it does not agree with what you have been taught. Jesus is seen on Mount Sion with 144,000 and then these are redeemed from the earth. So here is a coming of Jesus and a rapture of the 1st fruits of the second harvest. Do you claim that Jesus DOES NOT COME TO THE EARTH and rapture these 144,000 first fruits that are standing before the throne in heaven?

Revelation 14
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

In the following verses Jesus is seen sending His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth before the 7th seal is opened. This coming is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So are you claiming that Jesus does not come at the 6th seal for a harvest before the wrath of God? How could you possible miss it as it is MARKED but the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

So I have posted a few scriptures that prove that Jesus comes to the earth for the 144,000 first fruits and scriptures that prove that Jesus comes at the 6th seal before wrath.

Please show me where I am wrong? What have I missed?

 

[Keraz]

Interesting, because they are ALL MARTYRED during the trib...just like you posted
They are the left behinds that missed the rapture of the 5 wise virgins.

This speculative statement, is quite wrong. Those people in white robes, Rev 7:14, are not dead people,
The idea they were killed, is just made up to fit the false 'rapture to heaven' theory.

They are all humans on earth, who have proved their faith by trusting in the Lord for His protection, during the just happened Sixth Seal devastation.

you kidding?
Elijah
Enoch
Paul
John
Those in paradise that were resurrected at the ascention..the patriarchs.
The innumerable number before the throne in rev.

No one goes to heaven; Jesus said so.
Elijah - was on the earth after he was taken away from Elisha. 2 Chronicles 21:12
Enoch - Genesis 5:24 does not say he went to live in heaven. Neither does Hebrews 11:5, Enoch was just 'translated' and did not experience death. The precedent for 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 Which will happen at the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium.
Paul - He may have visited heaven in a dream, but he is never said to live there.
John - Another visitor, in order to see the visions of what will soon take place.
The Saints who came out of their graves when Jesus Ascended - We aren't told what happened to them, but a more credible assumption would be that they went back to their graves, where they await the GWT Judgment, along with everyone who has ever lived. Rev 20:11-15
Gods Throne - can be seen from the earth, if God wills it, Ezekiel 1:1, Acts 7:55

The rapture theory is a Satanic deception and will never happen.

 

[The Light]

A Pre-TB rapture says he leaves heaven to meet us in the air at the resurrection.

Pre trib rapture says He leaves heaven to meet us in the air at "A" resurrection.

Most of them place that time before Rev 5 and some place it at the 6th seal.

The Church will be raptured before the seals are opened as the seals are the time of Jacobs trouble.

This issue is, things need to be removed in order for there to be a restoration to an earlier state. Acts 3:21 specifies he will not leave heaven till the time to restore all things.

This is just another old, misunderstood Bible verse that gets passed around as truth when it surely is not.

Acts 3
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

The Word in Acts 3:21 does NOT say that Jesus cannot leave heaven till the time to restore all things. The Word says that heaven MUST RECEIVE Him until the times of restitution of all things.

That means if He leaves heaven, heaven MUST RECEIVE him until the restitution of all things. There is no mention that He cannot leave heaven. This is just something that people without understanding have used in an attempt to disprove the truth. Attempt fails.

Since nothing has been removed on a prwe-TB timeline whether before the seals or in the seals, it is not scripturally sound with Acts 3:21 to insist Elders in heaven are the church

What we know about the elders in heaven is that they have crowns. That means Jesus has come. The kings and priests in heaven in Revelation 5 are the Church. And they are there before the seals are opened as the seals are the time of Jacobs trouble.

nor is it to assume we are resurrected after the 6th seal.

There is a harvest at the 6th seal according to the Word of God.